Maker Pro
Maker Pro

OT: Nitrogen filled tires

G

Guy Macon

Rich said:
So, instead of a bling-bling spinner, you use a weighted wheel, like
those rotation counters you see on some buses and trucks. Of course,
you could bling it up, but it wouldn't be as pimpy at the stop lights.
For that matter, you could use a centrifugal clutch, to disengage
below some RPM so your pimp spinners would continue to sparkle. ;-)

Or, just hide the weighted part behind the bling.

Good design! Not only would that provide more energy than the
spinner, but it could be designed so that the spinners stay
still instead of accelerating. The present ones only show the
spinner effect for a short time after taking off from a stop.
They look normal while traveling at a steady speed on the highway.

Maybe a mechanism could be designed to keep them still at speed
and store some energy in a spring to give them a kick when
stopping.

Or a dual spinner (concentric or one behind the other with openings
to allow you to see the rear one), one which always stays still and
one that has a ratchetng effect so that it quickly spins up and
slowly spins down.

If any spinner manufacturer is reading this, hire Rich Grise. :)
 
J

Jim Yanik

In that mystical land called "California."

John

Oregon has (or used to have) people who came out to gas up your car;they
didn't allow self-serve stations.
 
G

Guy Macon

John said:
California has a law that gas stations must provide free air and water
for customers.

....which killed the small copmanies that were providing coin-operated
air, and led to a shortage of stations that have air hoses. Someone
has to pay for the expense of purchasing the air pumps, maintaining
them, running them with electricity, etc.

Thank god they didn't require grocery stores to provide "free" food...
 
R

Rich Grise

...which killed the small copmanies that were providing coin-operated
air, and led to a shortage of stations that have air hoses. Someone
has to pay for the expense of purchasing the air pumps, maintaining
them, running them with electricity, etc.

Thank god they didn't require grocery stores to provide "free" food...

The operative word here being "customers" - that's somebody who
buys something. They shouldn't have to provide free air for somdbody
who just pops in off the street and uses their air without buying
anything, ergo the coin-op air makes them a "customer".

Naah - that's way too sane for California bureaucrats.

Thanks,
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

You also smoke and make rationalizations about why it is not unhealthy
for you.

"Rationalizations?" Like I know that smoking doesn't cause cancer?

I've seen the studies that refute the antismokerists, but, like
the warmingists have learned, all of the real science that's
contrary to the dogma gets buried.

And, what the hell? Walking down the street is unhealthy for you.

Or, assuming smoking shortens my life, why should I deprive myself
of one of life's simple pleasures, and then _prolong_ it?

And another thing - what's it to you? Do you get a warm fuzzy
feeling when you convert somebody?

Thanks,
Rich
 
J

Joel Koltner

You're in Oregon here aren't you, guy? My experience with those coin-operated
units is that they're generally poorly maintained and typically undersized
(leading to very long fill times) in the first place -- using them is a much
worse experience than in "the old days" when pretty much all gas stations had
*decent* air compressors that you could use *for free*.

The cost of a compressor and its maintenance and electrical usage probably
amounts to about 1/100 of a penny per customer per visit!

Make no mistake -- the coin-operated units were introduced as revenue
enhancers, not just as a means to get air to pay for itself.

Do you think that gas stations should start having pay toilets as well? :)
They're certainly *far* more expensive to maintain than an air compressor is!

---Joel
 
R

Richard Henry

"Rationalizations?" Like I know that smoking doesn't cause cancer?

I've seen the studies that refute the antismokerists, but, like
the warmingists have learned, all of the real science that's
contrary to the dogma gets buried.

And, what the hell? Walking down the street is unhealthy for you.

Or, assuming smoking shortens my life, why should I deprive myself
of one of life's simple pleasures, and then _prolong_ it?

And another thing - what's it to you? Do you get a warm fuzzy
feeling when you convert somebody?

Q.E.D.
 
J

John Larkin

You are neglecting how little work you can get from the AIRFLOW that a
sideways fan assembly will get.

It's really not a fan assembly. You'd design it to have a lot of
rotational drag, so it tends to lag behind the wheel speed. The
relative motion could drive the tiny pump. At freeway speeds, the
force would be large. Stop-and-go, it would work in inertia mode.

It would only need a little energy per day to keep a tire topped off.
The pump could be tiny.

Your powerful ram air generator has it's fan blades oriented facing the
airflow.Spinners are sideways to that airflow,and you would need some
ducting to direct the airflow to propel the blades.

It only needs rotational drag, which doesn't benefit from ducting.
you just are not going to get any useful energy transfer from the spinning
auto wheel to your pump gearing.
Gearing?

You evidently have not observed a wheel
spinner in action,or you'd know what I'm talking about.

You evidently haven't done the math.

John
 
R

Richard Henry

"Rationalizations?" Like I know that smoking doesn't cause cancer?

I've seen the studies that refute the antismokerists, but, like
the warmingists have learned, all of the real science that's
contrary to the dogma gets buried.

And, what the hell? Walking down the street is unhealthy for you.

Or, assuming smoking shortens my life, why should I deprive myself
of one of life's simple pleasures, and then _prolong_ it?

And another thing - what's it to you? Do you get a warm fuzzy
feeling when you convert somebody?

Q.E.D.
 
J

Jim Thompson

[snip]
No,he's right;those wheel spinners use low friction bearings,and any
crud will stop them.

So, you won't do the math either.

John

Math without practical experience is useless.

Practical experience without math is amateur guesswork.

John

John, I think you've got yourself out on a limb, on the wrong side of
the saw ;-)

I think it's you who has to put some numbers to it.

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Larkin

[snip]

No,he's right;those wheel spinners use low friction bearings,and any
crud will stop them.

So, you won't do the math either.

John





Math without practical experience is useless.

Practical experience without math is amateur guesswork.

John

John, I think you've got yourself out on a limb, on the wrong side of
the saw ;-)

I think it's you who has to put some numbers to it.

...Jim Thompson

I already did. And Guy confirmed it.

John
 
J

Jim Thompson

[snip]

No,he's right;those wheel spinners use low friction bearings,and any
crud will stop them.

So, you won't do the math either.

John





Math without practical experience is useless.

Practical experience without math is amateur guesswork.

John

John, I think you've got yourself out on a limb, on the wrong side of
the saw ;-)

I think it's you who has to put some numbers to it.

...Jim Thompson

I already did. And Guy confirmed it.

John

Macon?? That's almost as good as having "...bored..." do it ;-)

I think you need a pendulum of _substantial weight_ so that it
_doesn't rotate, but acts as a "pinning" point for the piston(s). What
weight does it take for a 1/2" piston working against 30PSI, and what
are the respective arm lengths?

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Larkin

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:23:39 -0700, John Larkin



[snip]

No,he's right;those wheel spinners use low friction bearings,and any
crud will stop them.

So, you won't do the math either.

John





Math without practical experience is useless.

Practical experience without math is amateur guesswork.

John

John, I think you've got yourself out on a limb, on the wrong side of
the saw ;-)

I think it's you who has to put some numbers to it.

...Jim Thompson

I already did. And Guy confirmed it.

John

Macon?? That's almost as good as having "...bored..." do it ;-)

No, MissingProng can't do math at all. He's entirely number-phobic.
I think you need a pendulum of _substantial weight_ so that it
_doesn't rotate, but acts as a "pinning" point for the piston(s).

That could work, too. But we'd need a small amount of energy per day.
I'm guessing 1 kilojoule would be plenty - and easy to get - based on
the performance of a little cigaret-lighter-plugin compressor I have.
The bling-spinner idea was cute, and would be a nice sales gimmick.

What
weight does it take for a 1/2" piston working against 30PSI, and what
are the respective arm lengths?

Why 1/2"? The amount of air we'd need is tiny.

I'm not going to design it, much less build one to prove something to
rude strangers, but the numbers seem well in the ballpark of
feasibility. That's the first step in engineering, a quick numerical
estimate to see if an idea has a chance of working. This one does.

John
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

well,make up a prototype,show us that it works.
Until then,I don't believe that it would work to pump up a car tire.


There is four orders of magnitude more energy available in the
reciprocating mass of the suspension system.
 
G

Glen Walpert

It's really not a fan assembly. You'd design it to have a lot of
rotational drag, so it tends to lag behind the wheel speed. The
relative motion could drive the tiny pump. At freeway speeds, the
force would be large. Stop-and-go, it would work in inertia mode.

It would only need a little energy per day to keep a tire topped off.
The pump could be tiny.



It only needs rotational drag, which doesn't benefit from ducting.


You evidently haven't done the math.

I have to admit that this silly idea could be done, for example with
the "spinner" weight connected directly to the shaft of a very tiny
single piston compressor similar to a model airplane engine only
smaller, with reed in/out valves in the head and no side ports.
Bearing drag and the compressor shaft torque would spin the weight up
during acceleration, delivering a few strokes of compression, and
deceleration would deliver a few more in the oposite direction
(rotation direction is irrelevant to compressor). You could put all
the air in the tire and let out the excess with a relief valve set at
32 PSIG or whatever is desired.

But I don't like the idea, too cumbersome and delicate, and the
spinners would look lousy on my Yugo. Plus the extra unsprung weight
would spoil its handling.

What is wrong with the usual approach of instaling a compressed air
rotary joint on each axle, connected to the tire through a Schrader
valve in the wheel (so it holds air when removed). The stationary end
of each rotary joint connects to a pressure transducer and fill (from
engine driven compressor) and vent solenoid valves, controlled by the
tire inflation computer. A dashboard control lets the driver adjust
tire inflation from inside, so for instance pressure could be dropped
to 20 PSIG for driving on sand and back to 32 for highway driving, or
upped a bit for driving in rain. This arrangement works pretty well
on my Yugo :).

Glen
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

You define yourself by the things you refuse to believe are possible.

John
No. We define fact with fact. A stray bug can stop those spinners from
"working". They certainly aren't going to operate a compressor, and they
most certainly aren't going to operate one that has to keep a surge tank
full in a leaky system, and replenish it after a tire gets topped off.

It's like asking a clock spring to power a dragster.
 
R

Rich Grise

You're in Oregon here aren't you, guy?

Actually, Guy is in southern CA, and John's in San Francisco somewhere.
http://www.guymacon.com/
http://www.highlandtechnology.com/
My experience with those coin-operated
units is that they're generally poorly maintained and typically undersized
(leading to very long fill times) in the first place -- using them is a much
worse experience than in "the old days" when pretty much all gas stations had
*decent* air compressors that you could use *for free*.

The cost of a compressor and its maintenance and electrical usage probably
amounts to about 1/100 of a penny per customer per visit!

Make no mistake -- the coin-operated units were introduced as revenue
enhancers, not just as a means to get air to pay for itself.

Do you think that gas stations should start having pay toilets as well? :)
They're certainly *far* more expensive to maintain than an air compressor is!

Gas stations have had pay toilets for decades. I doubt if it helps defray
the cost of cleaning/maintenance very much, but it keeps the riff-raff
out, which dramatically cuts those costs.

Cheers!
Rich
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

You just made that up. You sure didn't do the math!

Bullshit. They have very precise, high tolerance bearings, and I have
seen them fail from bug guts before. They are not going to perform the
kind of work your "compressor" would demand. They count on very tiny
differences to "spin" at all. If you make the differences big enough to
do the job you are after, the imbalance would be enough to throw that
tire/wheel assembly balance off, and we cannot have that in what MUST be
maintained as a concentric rotating assembly.
 
Top