OT: Nitrogen filled tires

[Guy Macon]

ChairmanOfTheBored wrote:

You obviously have no imagination and no sense of humor.

"Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's
game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be
indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds
possessing infinite amounts of free time."
-Neil Stephenson, _Cryptonomicon_

But of course it could be made to work.

My accomplishments are public knowledge. Anyone who wishes can
check my references and buy products that I have created. I would
be quite interested in what "ChairmanOfTheBored" -- who claims
that an obviously workable design of mine will not work -- has
actually created. Everything is easy to do if you don't have
to do it yourself.

Paying attention to who never replies to certain individuals
-- almost as if they have some sort of filter that makes all
posts from those individuals disapear -- can be quite revealing.

Consider this a public disclosure for patant purposes. I graciously
donate the concept to the public domain, and acknowledge Guy Macon's
ideas as prior art.

I hereby donate my recent tire-inflating ideas to the public
domain as well.

Anyone making millions of dollars on these ideas is, of course.
free to donate some of the profits to John and me...


"I want every spammer to consider spamming to be the single most
terrible mistake he ever made. I want every spammer to have to change
his name, move to another state or country, and get plastic surgery,
as the best way to gradually get his reputation back through years of
menial labor, after being simultaneously fired, divorced, sued, fined,
shunned, and kicked out of his apartment within 48 hours of his first
spam."
-Keith Lynch


"Keith Lynch is soft on spammers." -Guy Macon

 

[Rich Grise]

No, they spin, relative to the wheel, for two reasons: angular
acceleration and wind resistance. Both can deliver a substantial
amount of power, way more than it would take to pump a cubic inch or
so of air into a tire every day. WAY more.

Careful, John. If you convince him that you can get real power from
those spinners, he'll want to put slip rings on his axles and run an
electric car for free. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[John Larkin]

Careful, John. If you convince him that you can get real power from
those spinners, he'll want to put slip rings on his axles and run an
electric car for free. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

How about this?

http://www.hamiltonsundstrandcorp.com/hsc/proddesc_display/0,3809,CLI1_DIV22_ETI2937_PRD30,00.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_air_turbine

This is "the thing you never want to see used."

John

 

[Rich Grise]

How about this?

http://www.hamiltonsundstrandcorp.com/hsc/proddesc_display/0,3809,CLI1_DIV22_ETI2937_PRD30,00.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_air_turbine

This is "the thing you never want to see used."

When I was in the USAF, one of the things I worked on was "ECM pods".
These are cigar-shaped things, about 9" or so dia. by 6-8' long, with
various radar jammers and stuff. They bolt to the pylons in place of
a bomb or missile. To hang one on an airplane that doesn't have primary
power at the pylon, they used a RAT. The test stand is a sight to see -
basically a fan that can blow air at hundreds of MPH onto the RAT; it's
run with "bleed air" from a gas turbine Aerospace Ground Equipment power
cart.

Admittedly, I never saw one operate, but from the construction, you
could tell that it would be about as noisy as a jet engine.

The RAT vanes/blades could be feathered, to regulate the output.

And heck, who didn't come up with this idea as a kid? ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Jim Yanik]

How about this?

http://www.hamiltonsundstrandcorp.com/hsc/proddesc_display/0,3809,CLI1_
DIV22_ETI2937_PRD30,00.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_air_turbine

This is "the thing you never want to see used."

John

it's a really big leap from wheel spinners to ram air turbines.

 

[John Larkin]

it's a really big leap from wheel spinners to ram air turbines.

The wheel spinners would have an additional source of power, namely
angular acceleration. That alone would be enough to pump a tire. So
the momentum disk could be hidden behind a non-spinning wheel cover.

John

 

[Rich Grise]

The wheel spinners would have an additional source of power, namely
angular acceleration. That alone would be enough to pump a tire. So
the momentum disk could be hidden behind a non-spinning wheel cover.

Well, they also have inertia, and non-zero friction - I've seen
cars come to a stop, and the spinners continue to spin, in the
direction the car had just been going. But with the right gearing,
it wouldn't be hard to keep a tire up at all.

It would probably sell - it's one more thing that people can ignore
about their car care. Sigh.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[GoldIntermetallicEmbrittlement]

Well, they also have inertia, and non-zero friction - I've seen
cars come to a stop, and the spinners continue to spin, in the
direction the car had just been going. But with the right gearing,
it wouldn't be hard to keep a tire up at all.

You're an idiot. A mere few grams of resistance and those things fail
to function. They would NOT be capable of doing any REAL work!

Get it through your heads!

It would probably sell - it's one more thing that people can ignore
about their car care. Sigh.

It WILL NOT WORK.

 

[Jim Yanik]

The wheel spinners would have an additional source of power, namely
angular acceleration. That alone would be enough to pump a tire. So
the momentum disk could be hidden behind a non-spinning wheel cover.

John

well,make up a prototype,show us that it works.
Until then,I don't believe that it would work to pump up a car tire.

 

[krw]

[email protected] wrote:

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:34:07 -0700, mpm wrote:

Things seem pretty slow in SED today, so let's talk about "Hot Air". (Like
the kind in your tires.)

Every so often I read something like this:
http://fleetowner.com/news/topstory/fleet_nitrogren_beats_air/suggesting
Nitrogenis better than air for improved mileage, lower tire wear, reduced
Global Warming, etc....

The trick is you fill your tires withNitrogeninstead of compressed air.

Huh?! Air is 78% (or so)Nitrogenanyway. Is there anything to this, or
is this a classic signal-to-noise problem...??
Notice too that the article does not mention any service stations so
equipped...

When I was in the USAF, at one point I worked on the SR-71 Blackbirdhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22sr-71+blackbird%22

and they used drynitrogenin its tires. But the reason, they told me,
didn't have anything to do with gas mileage, it was so that when it
lands at about 300 MPH, the tires don't explode and burn. Hot rubber
and oxygen can get a little volatile.

But, for a car, the only difference I can think of would have to do
with condensation, and just using dry air should alleviate any risk
in that area.

IOW, if somebody's making a claim like that, and expecially[SIC] if
they're trying to sell you something (likenitrogen), then they're
just blowing smoke up your ears, so to speak.

Hope This Helps!
Rich


Here's and idea where you can convert the air in yoyr tires to almost
100% nitrogen yourself:

http://www.createthefuturecontest.com/pages/view/entriesdetail.html?entryID=383

Better yet, use Helium!
It is the most thermally conductive gas, so it would keep the tires
cooler while driving - especially at high speeds.

How would Helium keep tires cooler? Where is the Helium going to
conduct heat to?

"Slight" disadvantage is that it diffuses out and so has to be
replaced frequently...

Makes the unsprung weight less too. ;-)

Oh boy... a whole few ounces lighter.

A vacuum is even lighter, Dimbulb. Just like your head.

Funny though, how the areas in my head that only "contain" a vacuum are
three orders of magnitude more intelligent than all 4 pounds of your gray
matter.

Dimmie, the only reason you walk upright is that you head is lighter
than your ass.

 

[krw]

[email protected] wrote:

On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:34:07 -0700, mpm wrote:

Things seem pretty slow in SED today, so let's talk about "Hot Air". (Like
the kind in your tires.)

Every so often I read something like this:
http://fleetowner.com/news/topstory/fleet_nitrogren_beats_air/suggesting
Nitrogenis better than air for improved mileage, lower tire wear, reduced
Global Warming, etc....

The trick is you fill your tires withNitrogeninstead of compressed air.

Huh?! Air is 78% (or so)Nitrogenanyway. Is there anything to this, or
is this a classic signal-to-noise problem...??
Notice too that the article does not mention any service stations so
equipped...

When I was in the USAF, at one point I worked on the SR-71 Blackbirdhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22sr-71+blackbird%22

and they used drynitrogenin its tires. But the reason, they told me,
didn't have anything to do with gas mileage, it was so that when it
lands at about 300 MPH, the tires don't explode and burn. Hot rubber
and oxygen can get a little volatile.

But, for a car, the only difference I can think of would have to do
with condensation, and just using dry air should alleviate any risk
in that area.

IOW, if somebody's making a claim like that, and expecially[SIC] if
they're trying to sell you something (likenitrogen), then they're
just blowing smoke up your ears, so to speak.

Hope This Helps!
Rich


Here's and idea where you can convert the air in yoyr tires to almost
100% nitrogen yourself:

http://www.createthefuturecontest.com/pages/view/entriesdetail.html?entryID=383

Better yet, use Helium!
It is the most thermally conductive gas, so it would keep the tires
cooler while driving - especially at high speeds.

How would Helium keep tires cooler? Where is the Helium going to
conduct heat to?

"Slight" disadvantage is that it diffuses out and so has to be
replaced frequently...

Makes the unsprung weight less too. ;-)

Oh boy... a whole few ounces lighter.

A vacuum is even lighter, Dimbulb. Just like your head.

A tire is a gas filled bladder. Said gas is the reason the tire has
its springiness, not the rubber, though the sidewall expansion, and
return flexure are part of it.

Even if you did have an idea, and proposed it, it would be total shit.
Of that fact, I am quite sure.

Sure, I have lots of ideas. You could go away. BTW, isn't mommy
Dimbulb calling, Dimmie?

 

[John Larkin]

well,make up a prototype,show us that it works.
Until then,I don't believe that it would work to pump up a car tire.

You define yourself by the things you refuse to believe are possible.

John

 

[John Larkin]

You're an idiot. A mere few grams of resistance and those things fail
to function.

You just made that up. You sure didn't do the math!

They would NOT be capable of doing any REAL work!

It wouldn't take a lot of average power to keep a tire inflated.
Spinning a reasonably massive disk up and down all day, hundreds of
times probably, to numbers like 500 RPM maybe, could do a fair amount
of work.

Get it through your heads!

It WILL NOT WORK.

Sure it would, easily. I'm not so sure that people would buy it, given
that air is still free at most gas stations.

John

 

[Robert Latest]

When I was in the USAF, at one point I worked on the SR-71 Blackbird
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="sr-71+blackbird"

and they used dry nitrogen in its tires. But the reason, they told me,
didn't have anything to do with gas mileage, it was so that when it
lands at about 300 MPH, the tires don't explode and burn. Hot rubber
and oxygen can get a little volatile.

How do they cope with the oxygen on the outside of the tire? Do they land
the plane in a pure nitrogen atmosphere?

Your explanation makes no sense, especially considering that the tire will
get much hotter on the outside. Or is the tire more likely to burn from the
inside because of the rapid outside air flow's cooling effect?

robert

 

[Martin Brown]

How do they cope with the oxygen on the outside of the tire? Do they land
the plane in a pure nitrogen atmosphere?

It is the partial pressure of available oxygen that really hurts. If
the tyre is inflated with air then at 5 atm and above you have a
partial pressure of oxygen equivalent to 1atm of pure oxygen. You
probably have seen how well a smouldering cigarette goes in 1atm of
pure O2. This tends to make any spark or source of ignition from
overheating terminal in systems where air is used at pressures 5atm
and above.

One notable early European record breaking EHT Van der Graaf machine
was lost (in Germany I think) due to using pressurised dry air to
improve insulation breakdown voltage. When it did finally did spark
the entire place burnt down. These days they typically use SF6 as the
inert gas.

Your explanation makes no sense, especially considering that the tire will
get much hotter on the outside. Or is the tire more likely to burn from the
inside because of the rapid outside air flow's cooling effect?

The high tyre pressure means that the concentration of oxygen
internally could be dangerously high especially given the frictional
thermal stress on landing (which also raises the tyre pressure
further).

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Guy Macon]

It is the partial pressure of available oxygen that really hurts. If
the tyre is inflated with air then at 5 atm and above you have a
partial pressure of oxygen equivalent to 1atm of pure oxygen. You
probably have seen how well a smouldering cigarette goes in 1atm of
pure O2. This tends to make any spark or source of ignition from
overheating terminal in systems where air is used at pressures 5atm
and above.

One notable early European record breaking EHT Van der Graaf machine
was lost (in Germany I think) due to using pressurised dry air to
improve insulation breakdown voltage. When it did finally did spark
the entire place burnt down. These days they typically use SF6 as the
inert gas.

The high tyre pressure means that the concentration of oxygen
internally could be dangerously high especially given the frictional
thermal stress on landing (which also raises the tyre pressure
further).

My speculation: As you heat up materials that contain hydrocarbons,
they tend emit a gas that will burn at a lower temperature than
the temperature of actually igniting (soldering). In a tire, the
gas on the inside can build up a concentration that wouldnt occur
on the outside, and the bulk of the interior could become filled
with a fuel/air mixture. Not good. I imagine that an airplane
tire that is on fire but still inflated is safer during landing
than an airplane tire that is not on fire but is blown out.

 

[Glen Walpert]

How do they cope with the oxygen on the outside of the tire? Do they land
the plane in a pure nitrogen atmosphere?

Your explanation makes no sense, especially considering that the tire will
get much hotter on the outside. Or is the tire more likely to burn from the
inside because of the rapid outside air flow's cooling effect?

robert

The tires emit flammable gasses when hot, which don't accumulate on
the outside but do on the inside, where the autoignition temperature
is further reduced by the higher than outside partial pressure of
oxygen.

 

[Jim Yanik]

You define yourself by the things you refuse to believe are possible.

John

some people believe in horoscopes and magic.

show me I'm wrong.(about a wheel spinner tire pump.)
that's all I'm asking.

 

[Jim Yanik]

You just made that up. You sure didn't do the math!

No,he's right;those wheel spinners use low friction bearings,and any crud
will stop them.

It wouldn't take a lot of average power to keep a tire inflated.
Spinning a reasonably massive disk up and down all day, hundreds of
times probably, to numbers like 500 RPM maybe, could do a fair amount
of work.

all that mass will take MORE force to spin up.
(besides the force needed to compress air to over 35 PSI.)
You aren't going to get enough force with a wheel-spinner,"properly
geared" or not.

Sure it would, easily.

well,make a prototype and SHOW us.
You could get it on America's Next Inventor TV show,maybe they will fund
your project.I'll be waiting.

I'm not so sure that people would buy it, given
that air is still free at most gas stations.

"most" gas stations have free air? Not in Orlando.
Most have changed to coin-operated compressors,and often have been
vandalized,hoses cut.Hess is the only one left with free air.

I ended up buying my own portable 12V compressor,a nice one. Cost me $21
USD.

 

[John Larkin]

some people believe in horoscopes and magic.

And other people believe in mathematics. They're called "engineers."

show me I'm wrong.(about a wheel spinner tire pump.)
that's all I'm asking.

I did some math in my head last night, to lull myself to sleep.

Imagine a reasonable-mass metal ring parallel to the wheel, half the
diameter of the tire, connected by a disk or spokes to the pump shaft
at the center of the wheel, with the pump body fixed to the wheel.

Imagine a car accelerates to, say, 60 k/h and back to zero, maybe 20
times a day. One could get kilojoules of work per day at the pump
shaft, easily enough to keep a tire inflated. If you used a full-size
spinning wheel cover, the increased radius helps even more (squared,
even) and using air drag helps more yet, since that add a continuous
power source that increases greatly with speed.

Do the math... it's easy.

John