Maker Pro
Maker Pro

2N3055 failure (power supply)

P

Phil Allison

<[email protected]>



** The above pile of sub human slime is another congenital, ASD FUCKED
POMMY **** .


The UK is just crawling with such vile pukes.

Aussies just hate them to death.

Yanks completely despise them.

Other poms just quietly loathe them.


YOU can use you Killfile to eliminate them anytime.





....... Phil
 
D

Don Bowey

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:52:18 -0800, in sci.electronics.design Don

(snip)

from a wiki
One theory is that, as the majority of early immigrants to Australia
were British, it is rhyming slang for "immigrant" from a contraction
of the word "pomegranate", or possibly more directly related to the
appearance of the fruit, as it bears a more than passing resemblance
to the typical pale complexioned Briton's skin after his or her first
few days living under the hot Australian sun.


martin

Thanks.

I should have taken my own, usual, advice for such questions, and Googled
it.

Don
 
J

jasen

Thanks.

I should have taken my own, usual, advice for such questions, and Googled
it.

google can even explain the meaning of "ASD"

Bye.
Jasen
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Paul E. Schoen said:
I guess someone will need to do actual experimentation to see what
happens in real life. I have not found very much information on device
variations, particularly for gain (transconductance) and gate threshold,
which are probably critical for this application. It would probably be a
valuable exercise to do this. I was very surprised at the current sharing
without source resistors. I would think that the "knee" of the Vgs to I
curve is a useful point. I would think it would vary no more that about
0.2 volts from the nominal 4.5 volts, especially among similar devices.
The source resistors should take care of that much variation without too
much power, and for linear applications one might as well dissipate some
of the power in resistors rather than the MOSFET. Switching applications
are a much different animal, where efficiency is paramount, and
transients are critical.

An interesting discussion. There is some good information at:
http://www.answers.com/topic/mosfet

Paul

So I did an experiment. I connected four MOSFETs, HUF75645P, 100V, 75A,
310W, 0.014 ohm. Sources to GND. Gates tied together, through 100 ohms to a
pot across 10 VDC supply. Each drain to a 100 ohm resistor and a red LED to
+10 VDC.

Vgs: 2.50 2.60 2.73 2.86 3.00 3.20 3.50

Vd(1) 8.80 8.75 8.60 8.48 7.95 3.43 0.016
Vd(2) 8.80 8.76 8.62 8.51 8.15 4.56 0.018
Vd(3) 8.76 8.72 8.58 8.45 7.93 2.95 0.015
Vd(4) 8.79 8.76 8.63 8.53 8.21 5.40 0.020

LEDs were all about equal brightness and were barely lit at 2.73V and
fairly bright at 3.00V to 3.20V.

The spec sheet shows threshold from 2.0 to 4.0 V, but this is probably more
the spread over temperature, which is 0.6 to 1.1 normalized, or 2.1 to 3.85
from -40 to +160C. My experiment shows threshold at about 2.8 to 3.2 V at
20C.

I even tried heating one device with a soldering iron. At 2.76 Vgs, the Vd
changed from 8.60V to 7.90V. This does show a positive temperature
coefficient of current to temperature at near threshold, which would be
detrimental to current sharing, but it appears that the reverse is true at
higher currents. The LED for the hot device was a bit brighter, but not too
much.

I'm pretty well satisfied that MOSFETs can be paralleled successfully
without extreme measures. Moderate source resistors dropping 0.2 volts or
so at maximum current should be enough to provide adequate current sharing
without loss of headroom or efficiency for most applications. It would be a
good idea to try this same type experiment at higher levels, but I think
these (or similar) MOSFETs would work fine for the OP's power supply. I
bought 50 of them on eBay for $20, although shipping from Sweden added
about $6.

Happy 2007!

Paul
 
martin said:
from a wiki
One theory is that, as the majority of early immigrants to Australia
were British, it is rhyming slang for "immigrant" from a contraction
of the word "pomegranate", or possibly more directly related to the
appearance of the fruit, as it bears a more than passing resemblance
to the typical pale complexioned Briton's skin after his or her first
few days living under the hot Australian sun.


martin

It comes from the days when the brits used to send all the
undesireables there instead of prison. POM was short for "Prisoner Of
her Majesty". With hind sight this was not such a good policy, just
look at Phill, and the Aussies are still very sensitive about it. If
you ever visit Australia and the immigration official ask you if you
have a crimminal record, DO NOT ask if it's still compulsorary.
 
T

Tony Williams

What about the current example using source resistors? These
provide negative feedback, so Vgs is no longer fixed. How do
we calculate the minimum value needed to prevent runaway?

I think it is a question of doing sums to calculate
the dP(fet)/dT and making sure that that value is
less than the reciprocal of the Theta(junction-case)
of the heatsinking allocated to that individual FET.

I've just scribbled out a few sums, based on the
assumption that the main Id tempco comes from the
negative tempco of Vgs(Threshold), (values given in
various publications ranging from 1mV/C to 2.8mV/C).

The sums looked plausible but some example calcs
resulted in negative values for the external Rs, so
it is back to the dwg board on that. :(
Also, source resistors dissipate some heat, which reduces the
amount dissipated in the MOSFET. So in linear applications
such as the current topic, the source resistor can be useful.

AFAIK the worst case for potential thermal runaway is
a MOSFET with high transcoductance (gfs), running with
high voltage and low current, with inadequate heatsink.

This is the typical circumstance of (audio) power amps,
with paralleled big Hexfets, in class AB, running idling.

See <http://sound.westhost.com/articles/hexfet.htm>
which is an article proposing the use of Hexfets in
paralleled complementary format....... but then read to
the end, at the Update, to see the remarks after one
was built.
 
P

Phil Allison

<[email protected]>


** The above pile of sub human slime is another congenital, ASD FUCKED
POMMY **** .


The UK is just CraWling with the vile pukes.

Aussies just HATE them to death.

Septic Tanks completely despise them.

Other poms just quietly loathe them.



YOU can use you Killfile to eliminate this **** anytime.





....... Phil
 
W

Winfield Hill

Paul said:
So I did an experiment. I connected four MOSFETs, HUF75645P, 100V, 75A,
310W, 0.014 ohm. Sources to GND. Gates tied together, through 100 ohms to
a pot across 10 VDC supply. Each drain to a 100 ohm resistor and a red LED
to +10 VDC.

Vgs: 2.50 2.60 2.73 2.86 3.00 3.20 3.50

Vd(1) 8.80 8.75 8.60 8.48 7.95 3.43 0.016
Vd(2) 8.80 8.76 8.62 8.51 8.15 4.56 0.018
Vd(3) 8.76 8.72 8.58 8.45 7.93 2.95 0.015
Vd(4) 8.79 8.76 8.63 8.53 8.21 5.40 0.020

LEDs were all about equal brightness and were barely lit at 2.73V and
fairly bright at 3.00V to 3.20V.

The spec sheet shows threshold from 2.0 to 4.0 V, but this is probably more
the spread over temperature, which is 0.6 to 1.1 normalized, or 2.1 to 3.85
from -40 to +160C. My experiment shows threshold at about 2.8 to 3.2 V at
20C.

I even tried heating one device with a soldering iron. At 2.76 Vgs, the Vd
changed from 8.60V to 7.90V. This does show a positive temperature
coefficient of current to temperature at near threshold, which would be
detrimental to current sharing, but it appears that the reverse is true at
higher currents. The LED for the hot device was a bit brighter, but not too
much.

I'm pretty well satisfied that MOSFETs can be paralleled successfully
without extreme measures. Moderate source resistors dropping 0.2 volts or
so at maximum current should be enough to provide adequate current sharing
without loss of headroom or efficiency for most applications. It would be a
good idea to try this same type experiment at higher levels, but I think
these (or similar) MOSFETs would work fine for the OP's power supply. I
bought 50 of them on eBay for $20, although shipping from Sweden added
about $6.

Happy 2007!

Phil responds to that by calling you a "stinking, monstrously
autistic, kiddie fiddling pile of dog vomit!!! " I simply think
you're badly misinformed, despite our attempts to rectify that.
But, you do get serious points for trying a bench experiment.

Sadly, your experiment was nearly meaningless, because the power
dissipation was so low it didn't increase the junction temperature
sufficiently to get interesting. There's a smidgin of interesting
data when you compare the next-to-last two columns. The
Vgs = 3.00V column at about (10-1.2)/100 = 8mA shows
modestly-matched currents, but the next column with higher 34
to 58mA currents shows a 70% mismatch. However, these tiny
currents are silly: these are 75A 310W mosfets, for Pete's sake!

Device #3 drawing 58mA had only 0.17W of power dissipation,
and Intersil's datasheet tells us this will raise the FET's junction
temperature only 0.17*62 = 10C, which is not enough to learn
anything. I suggest you replace the LED+100 with 0.1-ohm
3-W current-sensing resistors, etc., to maintain the MOSFETs
at the same Vds. You can run them at currents of say 0.2 to
2A each, for 2 to 20W dissipation, without heatsinks, natch,
and measure the relative voltage drops across the 0.1 sense
resistors. Then perhaps you'll learn something interesting.
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Winfield Hill said:
Sadly, your experiment was nearly meaningless, because the power
dissipation was so low it didn't increase the junction temperature
sufficiently to get interesting. There's a smidgin of interesting
data when you compare the next-to-last two columns. The
Vgs = 3.00V column at about (10-1.2)/100 = 8mA shows
modestly-matched currents, but the next column with higher 34
to 58mA currents shows a 70% mismatch. However, these tiny
currents are silly: these are 75A 310W mosfets, for Pete's sake!
Vgs: 2.50 2.60 2.73 2.86 3.00 3.20 3.50

Vd(1) 8.80 8.75 8.60 8.48 7.95 3.43 0.016
Vd(2) 8.80 8.76 8.62 8.51 8.15 4.56 0.018
Vd(3) 8.76 8.72 8.58 8.45 7.93 2.95 0.015
Vd(4) 8.79 8.76 8.63 8.53 8.21 5.40 0.020

The threshold voltage is usually specified at very low current, such as 250
uA. I expected the greatest mismatch to occur here, at what I would call
the "knee" of the curve. The point is that a few tenths of a volt Vgs take
the device from just barely conducting to a full ON condition. Certainly I
would not recommend running in parallel without adequate source resistors,
which would equalize the currents due to negative feedback.
Device #3 drawing 58mA had only 0.17W of power dissipation,
and Intersil's datasheet tells us this will raise the FET's junction
temperature only 0.17*62 = 10C, which is not enough to learn
anything. I suggest you replace the LED+100 with 0.1-ohm
3-W current-sensing resistors, etc., to maintain the MOSFETs
at the same Vds. You can run them at currents of say 0.2 to
2A each, for 2 to 20W dissipation, without heatsinks, natch,
and measure the relative voltage drops across the 0.1 sense
resistors. Then perhaps you'll learn something interesting.

OK. I changed the circuit to source follower. Devices 1, 2, and 3 are
connected through 12 ohm 10 watt resistors to GND, device 4 has a 100 ohm
to GND. All drains connected to a 10 VDC supply. Gates in parallel through
100 ohms to a pot across the supply. Results:

Vg: 5.00 6.00 7.00 7.50 8.00 9.00 10.0
7.50(cold)

Vs(1) 2.25 3.13 4.11 4.65 5.13 6.12 7.11 4.53
Vs(2) 2.31 3.23 4.09 4.73 5.20 6.16 7.18 4.60
Vs(3) 2.18 3.12 4.09 4.60 5.09 6.07 7.06 4.27
Vs(4) 2.26 3.20 4.17 4.67 5.03 6.16 7.16 4.66

This seems to be a reasonable test within the lower normal limits of the
power supply being discussed. Current in each device varies from 0.18 A to
0.60 A. As a reference, device 4 is running at about 1/8 the current of the
others. It does have some thermal connection to the others, as I have them
mounted in free air next to each other (and probably touching). I started
measuring at 7.50 (labeled cold), and those values were drifting as the
devices heated up, so they are not very accurate, but do show the increased
current as temperature rises. Also, device 2 is probably the hottest since
it is sandwiched between 1 and 3, so with good heat sinking the current
sharing may be even better.

An exhaustive test would involve hours of work taking measurements or
setting up a data acquisition system to plot curves at many points. Also
more devices would be needed to achieve true statistical confidence. But I
would be comfortable using these devices for the OP's application, and I'd
expect current sharing to be within 20% or better. With the 0.1 ohm
resistors, it would be easy to try.

Right now there is a tube of 50 pieces on eBay item 170062103958, for $0.01
plus $8.00 shipping from Sweden, if you'd like to give it a Schottky.

Paul
 
J

JoeBloe

It comes from the days when the brits used to send all the
undesireables there instead of prison. POM was short for "Prisoner Of
her Majesty". With hind sight this was not such a good policy, just
look at Phill, and the Aussies are still very sensitive about it. If
you ever visit Australia and the immigration official ask you if you
have a crimminal record, DO NOT ask if it's still compulsorary.


Hahahahahaahaha!
 
S

skenn_ie

Hey guys, if you insist on insulting eachother, please lose the
expletives. They only show that you don't know enough english to make
meaningful comments !.

As far as 3055's are concerned...I'd bin them..they may be cheap, but
they are also horrible devices..use a TIP, or better still, a HexFET
 
P

Phil Allison

** Beware - Skinhead Google Groper Troll. !!

Hey guys, if you insist on insulting eachother, please lose the
expletives. They only show that you don't know enough english to make
meaningful comments !.


** Bollocks it does.

As far as 3055's are concerned...I'd bin them..they may be cheap, but
they are also horrible devices..use a TIP, or better still, a HexFET


** Only show asses like you do not know enough electronics to make any
valid comment.

Bug OFF - IDIOT




........ Phil
 
J

jasen

It comes from the days when the brits used to send all the
undesireables there instead of prison. POM was short for "Prisoner Of
her Majesty".

That's definately wrong... aparently this word was first
recorded last century. be very suspicious of any acronyms claiming to
predate SCUBA and RADAR
If you ever visit Australia and the immigration official ask you if you
have a crimminal record, DO NOT ask if it's still compulsorary.

:)
 
D

Don Bowey

That's definately wrong... aparently this word was first
recorded last century. be very suspicious of any acronyms claiming to
predate SCUBA and RADAR


:)

Are you claiming it took the Australians until 1900 to write and keep a
history?

Don
 
S

skenn_ie

Actually, I believe the acronym is POME...Prisioner Of Mother E
ngland
 
S

skenn_ie

Being an idiot, it seems strange that I can earn my living from this
business, and have done so for 30 years !
I won't even grace you with a comment about YOUR intelligence, or even
if you are part of the human race !
 
J

John Larkin

Being an idiot, it seems strange that I can earn my living from this
business, and have done so for 30 years !
I won't even grace you with a comment about YOUR intelligence, or even
if you are part of the human race !

We pitiful mortals are all idiots in the light of Phil's blazing
intelligence and literary skills.

John
 
J

JoeBloe

Actually, I believe the acronym is POME...Prisioner Of Mother E
ngland


Yes, and regardless of what the SCUBA RADAR dip says, acronyms have
been around for a LONG time. We just did not give them the moniker
"acronym" until the middle of the last century.
 
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