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2N3055 failure (power supply)

R

Rich Grise

It's a 20A supply, so 4A per 2N3055, the .1R should dissipate about 1.6W
max and the .33 would be a little over 5W so I'd need the bigger package.
I would also have to trace the rest of the circuit and see what else might
be affected by the change (there's an LM339 looking at at least
temperature and maybe other things that will shut down the 723).


I ordered 10 so maybe I'll measure them and choose the best 5.

Once you do get it up and running, it'd be interesting to see the
voltages you measure across your emitter resistors at some given
current (or maybe even a graph ;-) ).

Cheers!
Rich
 
B

Brian

Phil Allison said:
"Brian"




** You have a serious reading comprehension disability.

What the OP has confirmed is the supply IS indeed current limited.





** You have a serious reading comprehension disability.

Plus an utterly ASD fucked brain.

Go top yourself anytime - ASSHOLE.





........ Phil

Getting a little testy are we? Of all the things that have been suggested so
far, the only thing that has any merit is the over-voltage protection.
Everything else has been hogwash. After all the time and expense, the OP
would have very little (in the way of reliability) to show for it. This
would be very easy for the OP to prove to himself. If he were to change the
one power transistor that went bad, put the power supply under full load and
measure the voltages across each of the ballast resistors (as you call it),
so he could see what each of the power transistor current draw is. Then go
ahead and change the rest of the power transistors and do the same test
again. Look at the data sheet for the 2N3055, and see how close he is to the
specks. I bet he will have plenty of safety factor. If that is so, then what
has he gained? I bet, not much.

Brian Ellis
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Ben Jackson said:
It's a 20A supply, so 4A per 2N3055, the .1R should dissipate about 1.6W
max and the .33 would be a little over 5W so I'd need the bigger package.
I would also have to trace the rest of the circuit and see what else
might be affected by the change (there's an LM339 looking at at least
temperature and maybe other things that will shut down the 723).


I ordered 10 so maybe I'll measure them and choose the best 5.

This circuit might work well with logic level power MOSFETs, something like
STP20NF06, which is only $0.60, compared to about $1.30 for 2N3055, if you
can use the TO-220 package instead of TO-3. MOSFETs work very well for
current sharing, as their resistance increases by a factor of about 2 from
0 to 100C. The 0.1 ohm resistors will help by giving negative feedback to
the gate voltage. However, you will need a drive voltage about 3 or 4 volts
above the desired output voltage.

If you use bipolars, it is very important to keep all the parallel
transistors at the same temperature. It may even be helpful to arrange the
emitter resistors so they will heat up a different area of the heat sink to
minimize thermal runaway. Thermistors can also help by reducing base
current drive to the hottest devices.

Vbe should be about 0.5 to 0.7 for any similar transistor, so the 0.1 ohm
resistor should provide current equalization of +/- 1 amp from the nominal
4 amps per device. Each device should be running at about 40 watts if the
22 volt raw supply is maintained, but it is probably more like 16 volts
under full load, for a more reasonable 16 watts each.

Good luck,

Paul
 
P

Phil Allison

"Paul E. Schoen = Utter CRIMINAL FUCKWIT "

KILLFILE the Autistic SCUM BAG NOW !!!

KILLING the incorrigible PRICK him would be even better !!



MOSFETs work very well for current sharing,


** BOLLOCKS !!!!!!

No way in a LINEAR regulator - you DUMB ASS !!


If you use bipolars, it is very important to keep all the parallel
transistors at the same temperature.


** Being Vbe matched & on the same heatsink does that - **** brain !!


It may even be helpful to arrange the emitter resistors so they will heat
up a different area of the heat sink to minimize thermal runaway.


** This ANENCEPHALIC Schoen Fuckwit must be a CRACK addict !!.

ASD alone simply does not explain this level of congenital INSANITY !!



Thermistors can also help by reducing base current drive to the hottest
devices.


** Totally INSANE !!


Vbe should be about 0.5 to 0.7 for any similar transistor,


** Crapology.

Schoen has no fucking idea what Vbe tracking even is.

FOAD you PITA ASS !!





........ Phil
 
Phil said:
** If you were not such a complete ASSHOLE might feel sorry for you.





** An educated speculation that has been now confirmed as correct.

Enjoying your sour grapes ????

Guessing is clearly your greatest asset. I bow in admiration.

** Its within the DC safe area curve for a 2N3055.

No it isn't!! Seems you cant read a data sheet either.
A temp cut out switch on the heatsink would prevent failure.

What you gonna set it at? 10degC?

PSU design is obviously way over your pointy head - ASSHOLE.

Yours too it would seem. You seem to be obsessed with assholes, are you
a little gay?
 
P

Phil Allison

<[email protected]>



** The above pile of slime is another congenital, ASD FUCKED POMMY **** .

The UK is just crawling with the vile pukes.

Aussie just hate them to death.

Yanks completely despise them.

Other poms just quietly loathe them.



YOU can use you Killfile to eliminate them anytime.




....... Phil
 
J

John Larkin

This circuit might work well with logic level power MOSFETs, something like
STP20NF06, which is only $0.60, compared to about $1.30 for 2N3055, if you
can use the TO-220 package instead of TO-3. MOSFETs work very well for
current sharing, as their resistance increases by a factor of about 2 from
0 to 100C.

Actually, no. RdsON isn't relevant here, because they're not
saturated, and if they're on the same heatsink most local
thermoregulation would cancel out anyhow. Even "identical" fets have
to be hand-matched (and expect to throw some away) to get safe levels
of linear-mode sharing. Huge source resistors help the sharing at high
currents but it's hard to find a value that works over a decent load
range.

But it's easy to use paralleled mosfets: just use an opamp per fet as
closed-loop gate drivers, with feedback from small source resistors.
That will linearize and equalize them to microvolts precision.

Switching (saturated) mosfets can share a load reasonably well. [1]

John


[1] I use "saturated" in the bipolar sense, lots of gate drive and low
drain voltage, the ohmic region. Some people consider fet "saturation"
to be the opposite region, the high-voltage constant-current place.
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

John Larkin said:
This circuit might work well with logic level power MOSFETs, something
like
STP20NF06, which is only $0.60, compared to about $1.30 for 2N3055, if
you
can use the TO-220 package instead of TO-3. MOSFETs work very well for
current sharing, as their resistance increases by a factor of about 2
from
0 to 100C.

Actually, no. RdsON isn't relevant here, because they're not
saturated, and if they're on the same heatsink most local
thermoregulation would cancel out anyhow. Even "identical" fets have
to be hand-matched (and expect to throw some away) to get safe levels
of linear-mode sharing. Huge source resistors help the sharing at high
currents but it's hard to find a value that works over a decent load
range.

But it's easy to use paralleled mosfets: just use an opamp per fet as
closed-loop gate drivers, with feedback from small source resistors.
That will linearize and equalize them to microvolts precision.

Switching (saturated) mosfets can share a load reasonably well. [1]

John


[1] I use "saturated" in the bipolar sense, lots of gate drive and low
drain voltage, the ohmic region. Some people consider fet "saturation"
to be the opposite region, the high-voltage constant-current place.

I tried a simulation (LTSpice) using three very different MOSFETs, and
current sharing at high levels was reasonably good. At low levels, one or
more were essentially turned off, but that's not a problem. I have no way
to simulate device variations or temperature effects, however. I used a 20
volt raw source and 15 volts on the gates. The MOSFETs are IRF7811,
IRF7468, and IRF9410. Here's the results:

Rload Vload I(R1) I(R2) I(R3)

10k 13.19 51pA 1.3mA 49pA
1k 13.17 60pA 13.2mA 58pA
100 13.11 -360pA 131mA -346pA
10 12.90 253mA 870mA 167mA
1 12.25 4.31A 4.50A 3.44A
0.5 11.71 8.38A 8.10A 6.95A
0.1 8.91 31.8A 29.4A 27.9A

Paul
 
J

John Larkin

John Larkin said:
This circuit might work well with logic level power MOSFETs, something
like
STP20NF06, which is only $0.60, compared to about $1.30 for 2N3055, if
you
can use the TO-220 package instead of TO-3. MOSFETs work very well for
current sharing, as their resistance increases by a factor of about 2
from
0 to 100C.

Actually, no. RdsON isn't relevant here, because they're not
saturated, and if they're on the same heatsink most local
thermoregulation would cancel out anyhow. Even "identical" fets have
to be hand-matched (and expect to throw some away) to get safe levels
of linear-mode sharing. Huge source resistors help the sharing at high
currents but it's hard to find a value that works over a decent load
range.

But it's easy to use paralleled mosfets: just use an opamp per fet as
closed-loop gate drivers, with feedback from small source resistors.
That will linearize and equalize them to microvolts precision.

Switching (saturated) mosfets can share a load reasonably well. [1]

John


[1] I use "saturated" in the bipolar sense, lots of gate drive and low
drain voltage, the ohmic region. Some people consider fet "saturation"
to be the opposite region, the high-voltage constant-current place.

I tried a simulation (LTSpice) using three very different MOSFETs, and
current sharing at high levels was reasonably good. At low levels, one or
more were essentially turned off, but that's not a problem. I have no way
to simulate device variations or temperature effects, however. I used a 20
volt raw source and 15 volts on the gates. The MOSFETs are IRF7811,
IRF7468, and IRF9410. Here's the results:

Rload Vload I(R1) I(R2) I(R3)

10k 13.19 51pA 1.3mA 49pA
1k 13.17 60pA 13.2mA 58pA
100 13.11 -360pA 131mA -346pA
10 12.90 253mA 870mA 167mA
1 12.25 4.31A 4.50A 3.44A
0.5 11.71 8.38A 8.10A 6.95A
0.1 8.91 31.8A 29.4A 27.9A

Paul

I assume you hooked them hard in parallel, with no source resistors.

My experience in building NMR power amps is that it's ugly to parallel
"identical" power fets even with the largest feasible source
resistors. In my situation, a class AB push-pull amp, quiescent
current ran about 10% of peak output current, and with a little bad
luck, one of the fets (out of 4 on each side) would wind up furnishing
most of Iq and getting a lot hotter than the others. We wound up
matching parts, a real nuisance. After that experience on our first
amp, we went to closed-loop control of each fet, which has a number of
side benefits.

If you don't care which fet does most of the work at low loads, and if
you can afford to drop a volt (or preferebly 2) in each source
resistor at full load, it can be made to work. But at 1 volt drop,
there could well be some intermediate load that's embarassing.

I just wouldn't trust those Spice numbers. The last couple of lines
have three different parts whose transfer curves spread less than 20%.
I don't think that's realistic.

John
 
P

Phil Allison

"John Perry"


** This ASD fucked criminal cretin is another of the VILE SCUM BAGS.





........ Phil
 
John said:
...several stupid, profane lines deleted...

Geez, Phil, you were doing so well for a few days. Sorry to see you
going stupid again.

John Perry

Over in oz they have to pay for their medication, he'll be ok when some
cash comes in.
 
P

Phil Allison

<[email protected]>



** The above pile of slime is another congenital, ASD FUCKED POMMY **** .

The UK is just crawling with the vile pukes.

Aussie just hate them to death.

Yanks completely despise them.

Other poms just quietly loathe them.



YOU can use you Killfile to eliminate them anytime.




....... Phil
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

John Larkin said:
message
On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 01:40:10 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen"


This circuit might work well with logic level power MOSFETs, something
like
STP20NF06, which is only $0.60, compared to about $1.30 for 2N3055, if
you
can use the TO-220 package instead of TO-3. MOSFETs work very well for
current sharing, as their resistance increases by a factor of about 2
from
0 to 100C.

Actually, no. RdsON isn't relevant here, because they're not
saturated, and if they're on the same heatsink most local
thermoregulation would cancel out anyhow. Even "identical" fets have
to be hand-matched (and expect to throw some away) to get safe levels
of linear-mode sharing. Huge source resistors help the sharing at high
currents but it's hard to find a value that works over a decent load
range.

But it's easy to use paralleled mosfets: just use an opamp per fet as
closed-loop gate drivers, with feedback from small source resistors.
That will linearize and equalize them to microvolts precision.

Switching (saturated) mosfets can share a load reasonably well. [1]

John


[1] I use "saturated" in the bipolar sense, lots of gate drive and low
drain voltage, the ohmic region. Some people consider fet "saturation"
to be the opposite region, the high-voltage constant-current place.

I tried a simulation (LTSpice) using three very different MOSFETs, and
current sharing at high levels was reasonably good. At low levels, one or
more were essentially turned off, but that's not a problem. I have no way
to simulate device variations or temperature effects, however. I used a
20
volt raw source and 15 volts on the gates. The MOSFETs are IRF7811,
IRF7468, and IRF9410. Here's the results:

Rload Vload I(R1) I(R2) I(R3)

10k 13.19 51pA 1.3mA 49pA
1k 13.17 60pA 13.2mA 58pA
100 13.11 -360pA 131mA -346pA
10 12.90 253mA 870mA 167mA
1 12.25 4.31A 4.50A 3.44A
0.5 11.71 8.38A 8.10A 6.95A
0.1 8.91 31.8A 29.4A 27.9A

Paul

I assume you hooked them hard in parallel, with no source resistors.

My experience in building NMR power amps is that it's ugly to parallel
"identical" power fets even with the largest feasible source
resistors. In my situation, a class AB push-pull amp, quiescent
current ran about 10% of peak output current, and with a little bad
luck, one of the fets (out of 4 on each side) would wind up furnishing
most of Iq and getting a lot hotter than the others. We wound up
matching parts, a real nuisance. After that experience on our first
amp, we went to closed-loop control of each fet, which has a number of
side benefits.

If you don't care which fet does most of the work at low loads, and if
you can afford to drop a volt (or preferebly 2) in each source
resistor at full load, it can be made to work. But at 1 volt drop,
there could well be some intermediate load that's embarassing.

I just wouldn't trust those Spice numbers. The last couple of lines
have three different parts whose transfer curves spread less than 20%.
I don't think that's realistic.

John

I used the same 0.1 ohm source resistors as in the OP's schematic. The last
two lines are at and considerably above the rating of the supply. At 8 amps
each, the source resistors drop 0.8 volts, and there is a large difference
in transconductance over that range. At 90 amps out, the source resistors
are doing most of the work, dropping 3 volts each. Some intermediate
values:

1.5 12.46 2.85A 3.23A 2.22A
2 12.57 2.10A 2.57A 1.61A
3 12.69 1.34A 1.90A 0.99A
4 12.76 0.95A 1.55A 0.69A
6 12.83 0.56A 1.18A 0.39A

The current sharing gets crappy at low currents, but at that point it
doesn't matter very much. What I don't know is how the transconductance
varies with temperature. I don't do much with linear power anymore, now
that PWM is so easy to implement, but linear circuits are still useful. Any
real data, experimental or theoretical, that supports or refutes these
results, would be appreciated.

Just for fun I made a similar circuit with bipolar transistors: ZTX1048A,
2N3055, and FZT849. Results:

Rload Vload I(R1) I(R2) I(R3)

10 13.33 51mA 1.25A 31mA
6 13.23 289mA 1.69A 222mA
4 13.14 647mA 2.08A 560mA
3 13.05 1.02A 2.41A 925mA
2 12.89 1.77A 3.01A 1.67A
1.5 12.74 2.51A 3.55A 2.42A
1 12.42 3.98A 4.54A 3.90A
0.5 11.52 8.07A 6.95A 8.02A

That's pretty good current sharing for such a wide range of transistor
types. I would expect no more than 1 ampere difference between any two
devices at the nominal 4 amperes each for five, with 0.1 ohm resistors.

It is quite possible that an amplifier running at audio frequency may
require much better device matching. There are probably considerable
variations in gain for transistors used for that purpose.

Paul
 
P

Phil Allison

"Paul E. Schoen = CRIMINAL FUCKWIT "

The MOSFETs are IRF7811, IRF7468, and IRF9410. Here's the results:

Rload Vload I(R1) I(R2) I(R3)

10k 13.19 51pA 1.3mA 49pA
1k 13.17 60pA 13.2mA 58pA
100 13.11 -360pA 131mA -346pA
10 12.90 253mA 870mA 167mA
1 12.25 4.31A 4.50A 3.44A
0.5 11.71 8.38A 8.10A 6.95A
0.1 8.91 31.8A 29.4A 27.9A




** How completely hysterical !!!!!!!

All 3 mosfets are in SO-8 pack & have power ratings of 2.5 watts max !!

Shows what happens when you put a dumb simulator in the hands of an utter
imbecile.






........ Phil
 
P

Phil Allison

"Paul E. Schoen = CRIMINAL FUCKWIT "


Just for fun I made a similar circuit with bipolar transistors:
ZTX1048A, 2N3055, and FZT849. Results:

Rload Vload I(R1) I(R2) I(R3)

10 13.33 51mA 1.25A 31mA
6 13.23 289mA 1.69A 222mA
4 13.14 647mA 2.08A 560mA
3 13.05 1.02A 2.41A 925mA
2 12.89 1.77A 3.01A 1.67A
1.5 12.74 2.51A 3.55A 2.42A
1 12.42 3.98A 4.54A 3.90A
0.5 11.52 8.07A 6.95A 8.02A




** Whaaaaaaaaaattttttt ?????

This is even STUPIDER !!

A 115 watt TO3, a 1 watt TO92 and 3 watt SOT223 ??


Shows what happens when you put a dumb simulator in the hands of a fucking
imbecile.

ROTFLMAO !!




........ Phil
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Since *someone* pointed out that the previous MOSFETs were small packages,
I ran another simulation with honking big devices. STB120NF10 (D2PAK),
IRFP2907 (TO-247), and IRF1405 (TO-220).

Rload Vload I(R1) I(R2) I(R3)
0.2 9.11 15.6A 14.3A 15.7A
0.5 10.17 7.16A 5.52A 7.66A
1.0 10.61 3.88A 2.17A 4.56A
1.5 10.78 2.71A 1.03A 3.45A
2.0 10.87 2.09A 0.48A 2.86A
5.0 11.10 0.72A 587pA 1.51A

Even with such major device differences, the current sharing is not too bad
at high levels where it is critical.

Paul
 
P

Phil Allison

"Paul E. Schoen Fucking MORON from HELL "


Since *someone* pointed out that the previous MOSFETs were small packages,
I ran another simulation with honking big devices. STB120NF10 (D2PAK),
IRFP2907 (TO-247), and IRF1405 (TO-220).

Rload Vload I(R1) I(R2) I(R3)
0.2 9.11 15.6A 14.3A 15.7A
0.5 10.17 7.16A 5.52A 7.66A
1.0 10.61 3.88A 2.17A 4.56A
1.5 10.78 2.71A 1.03A 3.45A
2.0 10.87 2.09A 0.48A 2.86A
5.0 11.10 0.72A 587pA 1.51A


Even with such major device differences,


** BOLLOCKS !!!

Your totally ASININE simulator is **** NOT **** modelling the production
differences that are **specified ** to EXIST with real MOSFET devices.

Read the flaming spec sheet you BLOODY IMBECILE !!!!!!

The *gate threshold* voltage is speced to range from * 2 to 4 volts
* - for all 3 device types.

With transconductance values from 70 to 130 amps per volt - that means
that parallel connected, unmatched devices
operating in linear mode have NO CHANCE of sharing load current.

A 1 volt gate threshold voltage differential equates to circa 100 amp drain
current error !!!!

http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/9522.pdf

See specs on page 4 and figure 4 on page 6.

Draw two extra curves, spaced one volt each side of the curve shown - that
is the region where all real devices fall.


Paul Schoen = a COMPLETE FUCKING ASS !!!!

**** Off Imbecile !!!!!!





........ Phil
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Paul E. Schoen said:
Since *someone* pointed out that the previous MOSFETs were small
packages, I ran another simulation with honking big devices. STB120NF10
(D2PAK), IRFP2907 (TO-247), and IRF1405 (TO-220).

Rload Vload I(R1) I(R2) I(R3)
0.2 9.11 15.6A 14.3A 15.7A
0.5 10.17 7.16A 5.52A 7.66A
1.0 10.61 3.88A 2.17A 4.56A
1.5 10.78 2.71A 1.03A 3.45A
2.0 10.87 2.09A 0.48A 2.86A
5.0 11.10 0.72A 587pA 1.51A

Even with such major device differences, the current sharing is not too
bad at high levels where it is critical.

Paul

For more technical analysis of MOSFETs in parallel, read this from IR:

http://www.irf.com/technical-info/appnotes/para.pdf

From what I gather after a quick scan, worst case current imbalances of
about 40% may be expected for devices without additional circuitry such as
source resistors.

Paul
 
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