Dumbed down consumer electronics: Adding DTV channels

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,



Sure, they don't need it, but they're perfectly willing to pay for it.

Kids on long car trips today often have their choice of movies (DVD
player or laptop), audio (iPhone or similar), or games (PSP or
similar). That's entertainment, all right! ;-)

Not a joke, unfortunately: Friends bought a new minivan so that grandson
can watch VHS tapes while they were driving. I think it all goes a bit
far in today's society. We don't have kids but I certainly would not do
that.

Oh, and I suppose there are those things called "books" as well,
although today some people will be reading them on a Kindle or laptop as
an eBook.

I will never buy a Kindle. I mean, first you pay $150-200, then you are
perfectly vendor-locked to buy e-books from Amazon. No way. If I ever
felt the urge to read an e-book out by the pool I'd use the netbook.

Compared to video, no, but it's kinda like leaving a dripping facuet
going... a 128kbps stream listened to for, say, 5 hours a day for 20
days a month is 5.76GB of data per month, which is *well* beyond what
most cell phone data plans figure you "should" be using -- even on
"unlimited" plans. (I have an "unlimited" Sprint plan but the
unofficial policy is that once you go past ~1GB per month, you're on
Sprint's radar and they may chose to simply no longer offer to provide
data services to you except at the "casual" rate of... one penny per
*kilobyte!*.)

But then they must let you out of the 2-year agreement for free or you
could drag them to court. Breach of contract and all that. After all,
_they_ also signed on the dotted line

Anyhow, when I listen to Bluegrass I try to be a good netizen and select
the 32k stream. It's good enough. But I never listen 5h/day for 20 days,
it's only on when I check Gerber files for EMI gotchas. I get less tired
that way.

It'd be interestingly to see the volume over time for, e.g., 56kbps
modems. I would expect a pretty fast ramp up, with a shallower decline,
and of course they're still available today -- but probably selling
1/100th as many annually as at the peak? Effectively that particular
"standard" in modems probably lasted for <10 years (ignoring the niche
market that's still around today)?

They will be around for a long time. First, there's lots of 3rd world
countries where the roll-out of anything broadband is years away, if it
ever happens. Tne there's the boonies, I guess even HughesNet will
become iffy in some areas north of the Klondike. Last but not least,
people often ignore a backup plan. Most of our neighbors will not know
how to access their email when the DSL goes down. Even if they did know
they couldn't because they foolishly sold their modem at a garage sale
years ago for 50 cents. In the same way that they didn't keep at least
one POTS phone that doesn't rely on electricity. We do, I even upgraded
that to a speakerphone for $1, yep, at a garage sale ... and the last
time we needed that sort of backup was three days ago.

Interestingly, things like credit card machines and ATMs often purposely
use 2400bps even today, as the long (many seconds) training sequence
period that 56kbps modems use requires more time than just squirting the
hundreds of bytes CC/ATM transactions require through a 2400bps modem
(that doesn't a long training sequence).

I found that 56k connections only work very locally. When I did data
transfers across the pond a couple decades ago the most I could reliably
work at was 4800bd, sometimes 1200bd was required.

 

[Charlie E.]

I will never buy a Kindle. I mean, first you pay $150-200, then you are
perfectly vendor-locked to buy e-books from Amazon. No way. If I ever
felt the urge to read an e-book out by the pool I'd use the netbook.

Well, I didn't buy a kindle, but I did win one. I haven't bought a
book for it yet, though. First, there are all the 'free' books out
there by Wells, Verne, etc. that I can get. Many of these I have
never actually read, just seen the movies and other versions. Been
interesting to see what was there originally!

I also have a lot of e-books from other sources. You can read PDF's
on it. Also, Baen books has e-books that will work on a kindle. I
bought one book, and it had a CD containing the rest of the series,
plus a dozen other e-books. Still working my way through those!

I might buy a book for it, someday... ;-)


Charlie

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,



When I was a kid, we occasionally made the 1500 mile (3 days, or
sometimes 2 really long days) trip to my grandparents in Naples, Florida
starting from Middleton, Wisconsin. Neither of my parents was
particularly interested in talking, playing games, or otherwise
interacting all that horribly much with my brother and me on those
trips, so it was up to us to keep ourselves entertained. Books were
available but reading them tended to make me car sick, and otherwise
there were cassette tapes (but only 2 or 3 -- couldn't afford much of
anything pre-recorded), the radio (out in the boonies of, e.g.,
Kentucky, not a whole lot there!), or -- later on -- two electronic
games: Simon and Split Second.

I would have loved to have had movies and a *large*, randomly accessible
music collection as I do today...

Our trips where up to 500 miles in this car, made by Borgward (except
ours was blue):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lloyd602.jpg

The back was stuffed to the hilt, parents up front and me and my sister
in back sitting on the stuff (younger brother wasn't born yet). Once we
were stopped and the police made us enter a trucker's weigh station ->
whoops, heavily overloaded. There was also a heavy tent packed on a roof
rack ...

The car didn't have a radio, it wasn't even geared for that. We kept
busy with simple games and stuff, mostly. Usually we started at 3:00am
to avoid traffic, and us kids snoozed through the first 250 miles.

When my younger brother was born the little Lloyd was simply too smal
and we had this one:

http://www.carsablanca.de/Bilderstrecke/ford-12m-p4-der-taunus-der-aus-den-staaten-kam/6#pathway

It was developed in the US but deemed "too small" here. Other times
US-linked European companies such as Ford, Opel or Vauxhall seemed to
use American drawings, multiply everything by 0.7 or so, and replace the
V8 with a straight-4 of less than 1.5 liters.

I do read the occasional eBook on my phone. I see some value in Kindles
and similar (the LCDs on those create far less eye strain than reading
off of a traditional backlit LCD), but not the $150+ they currently want
for them -- and I agree with you completely that vendor lock-in is
quite the drawback: the ever-so-slightly discounted price you pay on the
eBook vs. the dead tree version doesn't make up for not being able to
pass it along to someone else when you're done.

A co-worker here keeps multiple copies of the bible (different languages
and different translations) on his iPhone and finds it enjoyable to read
the different versions and to be able to do a little "compare and
contrast"... and I imagine that being able to almost instantly search
for any text phrase with wildcards, etc. is even better than a concordance.

Our pastor has something similar on a Palm Pad. I prefer the netbook. It
has a much brighter display, backlit with LED.

But then they must let you out of the 2-year agreement for free or you
could drag them to court. Breach of contract and all that. After all,
_they_ also signed on the dotted line

Yep, and you occasionally see people asking about using these unwritten
rules as a "strategic" exit from their contracts. Apparently it works,
if you're careful that you haven't given them any other reason through
which they can hold you to the contract. I suppose this is one of the
reason that the telcos no longer advertise as many "unlimited" plans and
instead call it something like the "everything" plan with the fine print
then spells out the limits.

[56k modems]

Last but not least,
people often ignore a backup plan. Most of our neighbors will not know
how to access their email when the DSL goes down. Even if they did know
they couldn't because they foolishly sold their modem at a garage sale
years ago for 50 cents.

...plus most DSL or cable modem plans no longer come with traditional
dial-up service anyway, so even if they still had the knowledge and
technical know-how it wouldn't have helped...

AT&T does, at least out here. If not, it's best to have a backup service
somewhere, some sort of cheap dial-in service. You can always go to the
next Internet cafe, but so will everyone else and if the power outage is
major that won't help.

 

[Joerg]

Wow... we had a good-sized cooler that sat between my brother and me
when we were little that contained breakfast, lunch, and dinner; by the
time we hit about high school that was seriously impinging on any
"personal space" we might have had left, but thankfully my parents also
decided about then that, OK, we'll just have fast food and in the grand
scheme of things the additional $50 or so was nothing in the overall
cost of the trip.


Might possibly have prevented a nasty accident there!

Nah, just a nuisance (and money for the ticket). We've made many trips
that way, it was a very reliable little car, almost built like a tank. I
think the reason was more that the 0.6l engine (yes, point six liters)
wouldn't pull it up an incline fast enough on autobahns. That can be
dangerous because a speed below 50mph usually isn't considered safe on
German autobahns. They made a heavier duty van and it was the same chassis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MHV_Lloyd_LT600.jpg

The car didn't have a radio, it wasn't even geared for that. We kept
busy with simple games and stuff, mostly. Usually we started at 3:00am
to avoid traffic, and us kids snoozed through the first 250 miles.

Only 250 "waking" miles wouldn't have been so bad at all...

[Internet backup service]

AT&T does, at least out here. If not, it's best to have a backup service
somewhere, some sort of cheap dial-in service.

But if the power outage lasts for more than, e.g., a day, the phone
lines are probably all going to die anyway, aren't they? -- Only some
installations have actual backup diesel generators, the rest relying on
battery banks to ride through brief (hours long) blackouts?

If they last that long there are usually bigger underlying issues, and
then you have other worries. Like making sure older neighbors don't
freeze to death in winter because their "modern" gas furnace won't work
without power.

 

[[email protected]]

Not a joke, unfortunately: Friends bought a new minivan so that grandson
can watch VHS tapes while they were driving. I think it all goes a bit
far in today's society. We don't have kids but I certainly would not do
that.



I will never buy a Kindle. I mean, first you pay $150-200, then you are
perfectly vendor-locked to buy e-books from Amazon. No way. If I ever
felt the urge to read an e-book out by the pool I'd use the netbook.

My wife just bought a Nook (B&N's version of the Kindle). She reads a couple
of books a week and likes the Nook a lot. I don't know about the Kindle, but
the Nook will take software from a lot of places, like the Gutenburg project
and even PDFs.

But then they must let you out of the 2-year agreement for free or you
could drag them to court. Breach of contract and all that. After all,
_they_ also signed on the dotted line

The rule is in one of those dots. ;-)

I found that 56k connections only work very locally. When I did data
transfers across the pond a couple decades ago the most I could reliably
work at was 4800bd, sometimes 1200bd was required.

That makes no sense. The connection rate only depends on your "last mile".

 

[Joerg]

That's always a slightly dicey area... if the manufacturer says it's
reated for such-and-such amount of cargo, just how much can you push it
before you really are jeopardizing the handling and safety of the vehicle?

Should have seen me haul firewood with the Mitsubishi

Shhhht, I didn't say nuthin' ...

Of course, you can't negotiate a 35mph curve at 50mph when heavily
loaded. And the vehicle should be built in a sturdy fashion, mine has
thick torsion bars up front and leaf springs in back.

[Power outages, Internet backup]

If they last that long there are usually bigger underlying issues, and
then you have other worries. Like making sure older neighbors don't
freeze to death in winter because their "modern" gas furnace won't work
without power.

Sure, but who really needs to be able to go without Internet access for,
e.g., 24 hours or less? Businesses -- including consultants who work
from their homes -- sure, but regular Ma and Pa Kettles?

Sometimes it baffles me. I know realtors, self-employed engineers, small
home-based sales guys, restaurant owners ... no backup plans whatsoever.
Always flying seat of the pants. Then one sunny day ... beep ... click.
"George, I can even get my car out of the garage!" .. "Yes, you can" ..
"No, I can't" .. "Ok, I'll come by and get it out"

 

[Joerg]

[...]

I found that 56k connections only work very locally. When I did data
transfers across the pond a couple decades ago the most I could reliably
work at was 4800bd, sometimes 1200bd was required.

That makes no sense. The connection rate only depends on your "last mile".

This was in the days of point to point data transfer. Modules specs,
manuscripts, et cetera. Some of those connections went over "singing
wires" where the last mile could actually be more like 30 miles. You've
seen them, where the wires basically keep the poles from falling over.
Add in a crackling transatlantic connection with no SNR to write home about.

 

[[email protected]]

[...]

I found that 56k connections only work very locally. When I did data
transfers across the pond a couple decades ago the most I could reliably
work at was 4800bd, sometimes 1200bd was required.

That makes no sense. The connection rate only depends on your "last mile".

This was in the days of point to point data transfer. Modules specs,
manuscripts, et cetera. Some of those connections went over "singing
wires" where the last mile could actually be more like 30 miles. You've
seen them, where the wires basically keep the poles from falling over.
Add in a crackling transatlantic connection with no SNR to write home about.

How did you get a cross-pond analog line at a time when there were 56K modems?

 

[Joerg]

[...]

<snip>

I found that 56k connections only work very locally. When I did data
transfers across the pond a couple decades ago the most I could reliably
work at was 4800bd, sometimes 1200bd was required.
That makes no sense. The connection rate only depends on your "last mile".

This was in the days of point to point data transfer. Modules specs,
manuscripts, et cetera. Some of those connections went over "singing
wires" where the last mile could actually be more like 30 miles. You've
seen them, where the wires basically keep the poles from falling over.
Add in a crackling transatlantic connection with no SNR to write home about.

How did you get a cross-pond analog line at a time when there were 56K modems?

It wasn't a 56k modem. It was a 9600bd modem and later a 14.4k. But even
at that the connection would immediately error out unless I forced it to
start at 4800bd. It wouldn't have been any different with a 56k modem
unless it couldn't ratchet down to 2400 and 1200 (then you wouldn't be
able to connect). You can't beat Shannons theorem, when the channel is
weak there is nothing you can do except throttling down.

It depended a bit on the country. Germany-US would often hold 4800
through the whole session, but no more. For Germany-Canada it was
sometimes better to start even lower so it wouldn't cut out on me. Same
to Korea and places like that. But every reduction by a factor of two
meant a doubling of the costs of the call. Also, it was really important
to have a speaker run at least for the first 1/4 of the transmission.
That is because phone costs per minute were high back then and sometimes
it was smarter to cut it all loose after 5min and start over. Some
connections would gradually deteriorate for some reason and then you had
to try until you got one that didn't. After so many transmissions you
could almost predict whether a connection would stick or not.

We also split stuff up so partial reads would be useful and someone
could piece it back together at the other end. Sometimes when I hear
kids bemoan that the 5Mb/sec broadband at their parents' house is
sluggish I wish they could experience that old modem stuff just once.

If you had a >100k file and it wasn't super urgent it was cheaper to
spool it onto a floppy and airmail it.

 

[Joerg]

I took your advice and purchased a spare DSL modem/router/WAP given
that my wife works at home and all. $50 is cheap insurance...

Make sure there is also a dial-up modem and the dial-in numbers written
down somewhere near it. I don't use that feature (yet) but my router has
a RS232 connector to which you can let it fall back if it can't get a
DSL connection. Someone at the manufacturer (SMC) must have really had
their thinking cap on.

Although we don't have a regular phone line, so if the DSL itself dies,
she'll be heading for the nearest Starbucks, I suppose.

A Starbucks will be quite a drive from your home

I don't know if you guys are subscribed to one of the 3G phone networks
but an engineer from a client said he can also use his access to 3G with
a laptop. By plugging in a USB thingie, which in your case might need an
antenna hack so a nice yagi can be connected. Of course I don't know how
long the backup power on those towers will last.

 

[Joerg]

Back In The Day...

Some Commodore 64 terminal programs would display the data being
downloaded and play music in the background to keep you vaguely
entertained, I guess -- I remember doing some 180k transfer (effectively
an entire 5.25" floppy disc -- how incredibly puny that seems today!)
at 300bps... took rather awhile, especially with the early file transfer
protocols such as Xmodem that would transfer a small chunk (say, 256
bytes) and wait for a positive acknowledgment before sending the next
block.

I was duly impressed the first time I saw Zmodem by Chuck Forsberg -- it
would just stream and stream and stream data continuously,
simultaneously waiting to hear back from the downloader if any blocks
needed to be re-sent or whatever. On a clean phone line, your 2400bps
model would really get you 240 bytes per second.

The real modems were a bit more efficent than 240bps net

But even at 2400bps one had to watch it. When using the German telecom
monopoly back then they charged us around a buck per minute on
international calls. Luckily that was split into 10-15 cent slivers so
you could listen in and try again and again until you got a connection
with only modest crackle on it.

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,



Routers with dual WAN connections seem to be getting popular as well...
I guess some people sign up with both, e.g., DSL and a cable modem, and
even if one goes down it's no big deal... and when they're both up, they
obtain additional bandwidth. (E.g.,
http://www.draytek.us/draytek-dual-wan-solution.html)

For us, a 3G backup is pretty good idea. I've tethered my phone to a
laptop in the past, although my wife's phone is old enough that it
doesn't support that very readily. The USB dongles certainly work well
but they want rather a lot of money for them monthly...

Unless you use it only as backup. The cards expire very quickly but if
the Sprint network in your area holds up during outages and web access
is super important for your wife's work then it may be an option:

http://www.virginmobileusa.com/mobile-broadband

I use their cell service, works well. But as usual one has to read all
the fine print. I wish they had some non-expiring data plan like with
their cell service. If she needs mainly low bandwidth connections to
exchange things like Excel files and email then a dial-up would suffice,
as long as there are some dial-in numbers farther away that are more
likely to be outside the outage area.

 

[Charlie E.]

[Internet backup service]

AT&T does, at least out here. If not, it's best to have a backup service
somewhere, some sort of cheap dial-in service.

But if the power outage lasts for more than, e.g., a day, the phone lines are
probably all going to die anyway, aren't they? -- Only some installations have
actual backup diesel generators, the rest relying on battery banks to ride
through brief (hours long) blackouts?

---Joel

Well, unless their standards have dropped considerably in the last few
years, EVERY telco CO has a back up generator, and enough diesel to
last for several days if not a week or two! The batteries are just
there to filter the load, and hold it for a few minutes while the
generator kicks in, although they are sized to last for several hours!

Charlie (former CO equipment maintainer!)

 

[Charlie E.]

Thanks Charlie... do you know if those same standards apply to the cell phone
carriers?

Not really. They have hundreds (if not thousands) of towers, and the
maintance costs of maintaining that many gensets would be prohibited.
IIRC, they basicall just have good UPS's in the towers, so after a day
or so, they are down too. I am sure that SOME of their sites will
have gensets, esp. those co-located with a regular CO or other manned
locations, so there may be islands of service even days after a major
power outage.

Charlie

 

[JosephKK]

Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know
DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.

But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?

Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.

The reasonableness is taking a nosedive. It is more the idiot
managers than the engineers. Mindset is less code = fewer bugs.

 

[JosephKK]

I dunno what stuff you use, but here it is very possible to add a frequency
or station, or sat.
That is both for satellite, terrestrial, both radio, TV, and data.
DTV is not 'unreliable', in fact is is very reliable, but it needs a minimal signal
strength for things to lock.
You should now about PLLs, Viterbi decoding, etc.
Did you ever put a decent yagi or some otehr good antenna on the roof?

Part of the problem is that Jeorg needs a mast with about 4 modest
antennas on it and has a nutso HOA.

 

[JosephKK]

But one needs to know the bad news as well.

I am not sure actually, this is bit philosophical,
but why should I know it?
Today I though: Perhaps because it makes you feel better as it is far away,
keeps people quiet, they think they are in an OK place.
Politically motivated bad news?
Of course a large part of the news is taken up by what politicians play.
They are media maniacs that love any problem to get themselves in front of the camera,
even if they have nothing useful to add.

[...]

I have a small box for DVB-T (terrestrial), it has an USB connection.
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/haupppauge66.gif

That picture is smaller than a passport photo

How large is that box?

Oh, let me see, 14 x 14 x 3 cm.
But I was an early adaptor to DVB-T, the boxes these days are replaced by

^^^^^^^

Hopefully not

OK adopter, hehe

Out here they look the same but ATSC and less expensive
http://www.iunitek.com/iunitek/index.cfm?fuseaction=shop.dspSpecs&part=11224920

Yes, prices differ wildly, there is no way to tell, many shops in Europe
that sell stuff from the US just changes dollars to euros it seems.
OK some import duties and we have 20 % VAT on top.
I was looking for a NP60 battery for a camera today, you can buy those from 8 to 35 Euro,
with the same capacity mind you.
Whatever a fool is willing to pay I guess.

No, we fast forward through it. One box even has an advertising FFW
button that hops it 30sec at a time.

Good,.
There exists soft with scene change detection too, IIRC.

Dancing with the Stars from BBC is super material, you really see a
difference.

Now I am confused.
If it was from BBC, then it must have been original 25 fps .
that reminds me of dropped frames and fast pulldown, big problem with motion in
a 30 fps country.
Here the movies just play 25 fps, no dropped frames, but they are slightly shorter
(original film was 24).
The pitch of the audio is higher too.
http://www.24p.com/conversion.htm

I want the regular stuff to work right, my wife will not want a nerd box
in the living room ;-)

Na ja, these days everybody needs to be a nerd, to use even you cellphone
or laptop, or GPS, or TV, or camera, or whatever.
Washing machine too.

Maybe one day this will go away, and a robot will do those thing,
like programming all those gadgets,
But I am sure that will create problems of its own.

Can't resist the entree; try Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot" series.

 

[Joerg]

Part of the problem is that Jeorg needs a mast with about 4 modest
antennas on it and has a nutso HOA.

How do you know? Hint: We have no HOA whatsoever. That would have been a
reason for me not to buy a house here. I told our realtor back then: No
HOA, no Mello-Roos taxes, and I don't want furniture to rock when I jump
on the floors (the "Joerg" test, as she called it).

Besides, the mast won't help. If I had four masts half a mile apart,
maybe. Yesterday the usual happened, none of the news channels made into
into this area, they all pixelated out shortly before 10:00pm. Meaning
lots of people in a middle-class neighborhood haven't seen any of the
ads, meaning ...

Kids out here would respond that TV is so last week, get on the Internet
and watch news there because it always works.

 

[Martin Brown]

JosephKK wrote:

How do you know? Hint: We have no HOA whatsoever. That would have been a
reason for me not to buy a house here. I told our realtor back then: No
HOA, no Mello-Roos taxes, and I don't want furniture to rock when I jump
on the floors (the "Joerg" test, as she called it).

What's an HOA? I thought initially another variant of SWMBO.

Besides, the mast won't help. If I had four masts half a mile apart,
maybe. Yesterday the usual happened, none of the news channels made into
into this area, they all pixelated out shortly before 10:00pm. Meaning
lots of people in a middle-class neighborhood haven't seen any of the
ads, meaning ...

What braodcast frequencies are we talking about in the US? I am guessing
upto 1GHz or thereabouts. A phased array can be of very modest size. You
probably only need to roughly null out a narrow band of sky.

You might find it worthwhile having a pair of identical basic log yagi
aerials combined as an interferometer and an adjustable vertical spacing
of around 1m as a starting guess.

Kids out here would respond that TV is so last week, get on the Internet
and watch news there because it always works.

Paradoxically if your signal is too strong that may make multipath
misbehaviour worse. It might be worth playing around with inline UHF
attenuators to see if the signal can be brought back from the brink.

Or alternatively how small an aerial you can get a picture with. Where I
live the signal is so strong a nail and a there right length of
connecting wire will bring in a picture on the main channels.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Joerg]

What's an HOA? I thought initially another variant of SWMBO.

Home Owners Association. In those, the elected leaders sometimes behave
like they have to "protect" their fiefdoms. Not a good thing to have,
usually.

However, this is an airpark community meaning there is a runway almost
next door. So no tall towers allowed.

What braodcast frequencies are we talking about in the US? I am guessing
upto 1GHz or thereabouts. A phased array can be of very modest size. You
probably only need to roughly null out a narrow band of sky.

Just the UHF band is left, with the upper 100MHz gone, auctioned off by
the FCC. VHF has largely been shut down by stations moving to UHF. I
don't think it was a good idea for them to give that up as lower
frequencies mean better range.

You might find it worthwhile having a pair of identical basic log yagi
aerials combined as an interferometer and an adjustable vertical spacing
of around 1m as a starting guess.

Ok, but I don't want to make a science project out of it

Paradoxically if your signal is too strong that may make multipath
misbehaviour worse. It might be worth playing around with inline UHF
attenuators to see if the signal can be brought back from the brink.

I already put an attenuator in there because the "RF engineering" in
television sets has always been the pits, and still is.

Or alternatively how small an aerial you can get a picture with. Where I
live the signal is so strong a nail and a there right length of
connecting wire will bring in a picture on the main channels.

Same here, with one station but not the others. So I have a noth filter
for that one.