Dumbed down consumer electronics: Adding DTV channels

[[email protected]]

It hasn't really fizzled. While it's certainly not setting the world on fire,
there does seem to be slow but steady growth. See, e.g.,
http://www.twice.com/article/455377-iBiquity_HD_Radio_Sales_More_Than_Double.php .
Shipping over a million radios per year should be enough to keep it viable! I
also see Crutchfield devoting a fair number of catalog pages towards pushing
it...

I do find it a little disheartening that the FCC would license a proprietary
standard, though -- iBiquity owns the rights to the HD radio standard; every
single one of the ~3 million HD radios built out there resulted in their
receiving a royalty.

Who cares about HD radio? If you don't like it don't buy it. There are
*many* alternatives.

 

[Joerg]

Hi Joerg,



Agreed, but I wouldn't be all that unhappy if I were the CEO of iBiquity
right now -- becoming Microsoft or Apple is great, but running a
profitable company with ~150 employees isn't bad either.

Yes, having landed a de-facto monopoly provides a plum position in the
marketplace no matter how small that monopoly is.

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/hd-radio-now-standard-on-all-2011-bmw-models-ar87517.html
??? Guess you just need to rent fancier cars? And it comes with,
"fewer static!" How can you beat that!?

Oh yeah, I always wanted to rent a BMW750iL but I guess the CEO of the
client who ends up with that tab will want to have a word with me

They have a list here, although it's not entirely clear which models HD
radios come standard on and which it's strictly optional:
http://www.hdradio.com/buyers_guide.php?prime=autonew&price=any#BuyersGuideController

I vaguely remember one of the domestic car manufacturers offering it
(Polk i-something) but I also remember seeing a $500 price tag there.

I think it's going to be around for the forseeable future, although I
don't think it's going to kill off traditional FM... ever.

RDS is largely a fizzled standard though, you know? -- And that seems
like, at least today, it'd be dirt cheap to make standard on all cars.

In Europe it hasn't fizzled AFAIK. They had similar things since a long
time. I remember buying my Audi station wagon over there, via a dealer.
1987 model year (it's still on the road). Just as I wanted to leave the
lot I inadvertently hit the brakes because the radio started blasting
and I hadn't even turned it on. I thought something had come unglued.
Turns out that when it receives a certain data code via some local
transmitter it would let off traffic jam alerts unless you explicitly
disable that feature. I asked a neighbor who had a similar Audi and he
said they all come with it.

I have no idea how it is over there now. They do have some sort of
digital radio system on the FM band. Last time I was over there the
programming was boring and when alone I tried to tune in to AFN.

 

[[email protected]]

In theory HD radio could give you the best of FM and satellite: Lots of
high-quality sound choices and local news -- without paying $13/month.

....and still have all the range limitations of terrestrial radio. $15/mo (I
think that's what I pay) is well worth it. ...and I don't even have it in a
vehicle. ;-)

 

[Martin Brown]

Just curious: Why is it that "modern" TV/VCR/DVD devices only allow
auto-scan for DTV channels but no "add some later"? As most of us know

They might on the wrong side of the pond, but then over there they have
to put warnings on the top of champagne bottles not to point it at your
eye when opening and stamp the base with "open other end".

Panasonic kit sold in Europe will allow any amount of manual DTV tuning
to add individual channels if you have the patience to do it. Autoscan
tends to be more convenient when new channels pop (briefly) into
existence. The most annoying thing is that several designs reset the
favourites lists whenever you make a change using autoscan.

DTV is unreliable, meaning sometimes channel 6-1 pixelates out,
sometimes 58-2 is gone. So upon setup it will only catch the ones that
are currently receivable, which in our case is never more than 80% of
digital channels. Changes all the time.

But you can't add, it does a complete new setup, upon which Murphy says
it'll miss a few channels it had detected on the previous run. That I
find a rather daft technical decision. Is it just me thinking that or is
the cleverness in electronics designs really taking a nose-dive?

Sorry for the rant, but I had to let it out.

If your terrestrial DTV reception is so dire why don't you use Freesat
or whatever it is called over there to get the free to air channels?

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Joerg]

They might on the wrong side of the pond, but then over there they have
to put warnings on the top of champagne bottles not to point it at your
eye when opening and stamp the base with "open other end".

Yes, and don't stick cork into mouth, and all that stuff.

Panasonic kit sold in Europe will allow any amount of manual DTV tuning
to add individual channels if you have the patience to do it. Autoscan
tends to be more convenient when new channels pop (briefly) into
existence. The most annoying thing is that several designs reset the
favourites lists whenever you make a change using autoscan.

Out here it's only he dumbed-down variety, only auto-scan. So the drill
is to wait for a weather pattern that will show most DTV signals, peek
outside and listen to the scannner to make sure no Fedex freight
aircraft is on the approach, hit auto-scan and hope that as many DTV
channels as possible stick. Then delete the flakey ones.

If your terrestrial DTV reception is so dire why don't you use Freesat
or whatever it is called over there to get the free to air channels?

I don't think there is any free satelluite this side of the pond.

 

[GregS]

I think they failed to achieve that level of performance. Yesterday
_all_ stations that carry evening news blue-screened. Meaning we could
not watch the news. I guess this is called progess.

Lately, I frequently get one channel that stops. Sometimes if I go up a channel, then back,
it will work again.

I wish they would have presets on remotes. They do it with everything else.

I can't figure out how to have more than one cable box in the same room.
Maybe 3. Many watch TV on one channel, but thats crude. I need at least
two TV to watch. It happens all the time trying to switch back and forth channels.
When I asemble my home theater/entertainment room, I want at least
3 TV's.

Maybe this is easy. I know my brother has several boxes on a shelf for the TV's in the
sports bar.

greg

 

[GregS]

Lately, I frequently get one channel that stops. Sometimes if I go up a
channel, then back,
it will work again.

I wish they would have presets on remotes. They do it with everything else.

I can't figure out how to have more than one cable box in the same room.
Maybe 3. Many watch TV on one channel, but thats crude. I need at least
two TV to watch. It happens all the time trying to switch back and forth
channels.
When I asemble my home theater/entertainment room, I want at least
3 TV's.

Maybe this is easy. I know my brother has several boxes on a shelf for the TV's
in the
sports bar.

Another problem is turning off TV's in the same room or very large room.
The answer is, some remotes have both off and on buttons.

greg

 

[Martin Brown]

Martin Brown wrote:

Out here it's only he dumbed-down variety, only auto-scan. So the drill
is to wait for a weather pattern that will show most DTV signals, peek
outside and listen to the scannner to make sure no Fedex freight
aircraft is on the approach, hit auto-scan and hope that as many DTV
channels as possible stick. Then delete the flakey ones.

I can see that being really annoying. We have trouble whenever there is
heavy rain - a bunch of marginally OK stations at the top end of the
band deteriorate to the annoying pixelate and freeze mode with the odd
blast of ultrasonic clicks and chirps out of the speakers (unwatchable).

I wonder if there is a market for a combined rain detector and variable
gain low noise block for terrestrial DTV aerials?

Digital (DAB) radio is worse still - every unit I have tried will
intermittently crash to silence once a week and there is a random
variable time delay in the decoders about 1s behind realtime.

HD TV is about 1s behind ordinary definition TV showing the same channel
presumably because the encode decode step takes more CPU.

I don't think there is any free satelluite this side of the pond.

Wiki seems to think that you do have free to air on satellite though you
might need to mess around a bit to find them. It could still be a lot
cheaper if you count your time spent fighting this kit and completely
immune to terrestrial multipath distortion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_television#United_States

I find it useful for getting stuff like NHK. It isn't hard to set up.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Joerg]

Personally, I stopped listening to broadcast FM a long time ago.
Reasons: (I'll try to put these in order of importance)

1) On-air morning personalities who try waaay too hard to be funny
and entertaining and bomb miserably.
2) See above

Check, check.

3) The switch to "urban" format. Which loosely translates to pure
crap.

Check.


I once attended a seminar at NAB-Radio in Philly, circa 2004, where I
got to listen to Russell Simmons tell us "admit-it, you don't get it".
You're right! I don't get it. I don't care to. It's complete crap.
4) The "Clear-Channelization" of America. Every station sounds the
same, formatted the same, cookier-cutter, no local bands, no
originality, etc...

Yup. However, there is a refreshing ensemble of small locally owned
stations. It's just that on a long drive you are constantly changing
frequencies. And because FM radios have also been largely dumbed-down
(no more dial knob) I often listen to AM while on the road. Find a nice
station with Bluegrass or Mariachi, and off I go.

Now, fast-forward a couple years and Apple introduces the iPod.
Hallelujah! No more crap.
I can download all I want and more, and listen to what I want, when I
want. Including podcasts (which I love).

I carry a bunch of CDs, does the job. Sometimes the bible on CD.

No more need for OTA FM broadcast. At least, not for me personally.

My hope is that if the FCC adds some more spectrum to the band that FM
might get back to what it was in the 70's.

But the radios in cars and homes won't be able to receive that spectrum.
And no, we don't want another converter box.

Maybe that's wishful thinking. Last I heard the FCC was proposing to
grant allocations to AM owners so that they could better compete with
their FM counterparts.
I remain hopeful that ClearChannel, et. al, won't gobble up the band.

They'll soon realize that the listenership is eroding, just like TV
stations will (or do already?) after the DTV switch.

Otherwise, what's the point?

With syndication I also ask myself that. If you want to experience the
epitome of syndication drive on a German autobahn at night and tune
through the FM band. You'll quickly try to find AFN on the AM band, and
not because of language issues.

 

[Joerg]

Came with.

My #1 son gave me a Panasonic head (for my truck) and I have a
matching Sirius plug-in. But with a 10-year-old truck with only
~30,000 miles I can't rationalize the ~$13/month.

So if you change vehicles they make you pay again? Eeuw.

[...]

 

[Joerg]

I can see that being really annoying. We have trouble whenever there is
heavy rain - a bunch of marginally OK stations at the top end of the
band deteriorate to the annoying pixelate and freeze mode with the odd
blast of ultrasonic clicks and chirps out of the speakers (unwatchable).

I wonder if there is a market for a combined rain detector and variable
gain low noise block for terrestrial DTV aerials?

In the US it wouldn't help. There is plenty of signal, it's just that
the contents become garbled and unintelligible.

Digital (DAB) radio is worse still - every unit I have tried will
intermittently crash to silence once a week and there is a random
variable time delay in the decoders about 1s behind realtime.

HD TV is about 1s behind ordinary definition TV showing the same channel
presumably because the encode decode step takes more CPU.

Wiki seems to think that you do have free to air on satellite though you
might need to mess around a bit to find them. It could still be a lot
cheaper if you count your time spent fighting this kit and completely
immune to terrestrial multipath distortion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_television#United_States

I find it useful for getting stuff like NHK. It isn't hard to set up.

Here it is hard. The regular sat TV is all Pay-TV. Yeah, you can pour a
massive foundation, anchor a 3m-dish and try to pick some special
programming but I really don't want to go to that length.

 

[Joerg]

We have a Stiletto 100
(http://www.amazon.com/Stiletto-Portable-Satellite-Radio-Receiver/dp/B000IM88EA)
which is small enough that it's not too much of a nuisance.

Although with all the Internet radio stations available these days and
all our CDs ripped, I'd have to admit it doesn't come into the house
nearly as often as it did, e.g., five years ago.

$350? Yikes. That's more than 10 lunches for two at our favorite
Japanese restaurant. With two huge glasses of Hefeweisen from tap.

 

[Grant]

In the US it wouldn't help. There is plenty of signal, it's just that
the contents become garbled and unintelligible.

And that was before transmission issues

Grant.

 

[Joerg]

And that was before transmission issues

Whoops. Even more issues?

[...]

 

[[email protected]]

So if you change vehicles they make you pay again? Eeuw.

Again? It's $13 (or $15, can't remember) per month. Additional radios are
something like $6/mo up to six per account. Of course you buy the radio, too.

 

[Joerg]

Actually they were $150 when I bought it. It's $350 now because Sirius
discontinued it yet it's still in pretty high demand. There was also a
Stiletto SL10 which was the same thing minus the internal flash memory
that allows it to double as an MP3 player; those were $99 back in the day.

The engineering on them isn't actualy all that impressive: They suffer
from the dreaded lack of a good power-on-reset circuit that you've often
mentioned -- if you pull the power and plug it back in too quickly,
it'll just sit there dead :-(. They also run pretty toasty warm -- the
first one I had died in under a year (and was exchanged for a new one
under warranty) due to literally cooking itself, becoming less and less
reliable over time. The battery cases are made of glued together
plastic pieces which tends to pop apart a bit over time once the
(Lithium Ion) battery expands a few millimeters with age.

At least it doesn't squeal like our Rio stereo after a power outage.
When we are home it's ok, you just power-cycle it. But when the dogs are
home alone it can really annoy them.

The stereo is actually pretty good and we bought it when that mfg when
out of the business. I just don't understand why they don't test this
stuff more thoroughly, and then get some guys in who can do it right.
They don't have to hire them.

But despite all those problems, as I say, they're still in demand since
they were probably the 2nd best portable receiver Sirius made. The best
one was the Stiletto 2 (the follow-up), and you'll notice that now that
it's been discontinued as well, it goes for $500 new on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/SIRIUS-Stiletto-Portable-Satellite-Radio/dp/B000WOT6O0
-- ouch!

Amazing. I never really understood the Sirius and XM market. Even back
then the writing was on the wall that the web combined with 3G and 4G
cell phone networks could eventually replace it. Ok, doesn't work out in
the boonies but I think less and less people care about that. Nowadays
everyone flies across those areas unless there is no other way.

 

[Joerg]

Ouch!

It's not super-loud, just annoying. They can retreat into another room
if it goes on their nerves.

"Eventually" is still some time away -- even on I-5 there are still
numerous where 3G/4G service is unavailable. Also keep in mind that
3G/4G provide no guaranteed bandwidth, so in other areas even though you
effectively may have your Internet connection, the bandwidth and latency
will be unacceptable for a good, solid audio stream.

Yep, the Siskiyou range is dead even for regular GSM or CDMA networks.
Anyhow, I don't think mankind really needs the constant din of radio at
all times. I am perfectly happy with AM/FM and a CD (or cassette)
player. Often I turn all this off, roll down the window and listen to
the roar of a Harley in front of me. Or I think about some circuitry or
technical problem. There's always a little notebook in the glove
compartment. The real thing, made from dead trees.

Truckers will continue to be a good market for Sirius/XM -- they have to
drive across those boonies, and even in areas with 3G/4G coverage,
unless you have an unlimited data plan (and these are becoming harder
and harder to obtain -- and more and more expensive when they are
obtainable), it'll cost you rather a lot to use it.

Audio isn't very demanding in bandwidth. When I do layout checks I often
listen to Bluegrass on an Internet station. The modem is right here in
the office and the yellow traffic LED barely flashes. Not like when a
fat PDF gets downloaded and it's constantly on for tens of seconds.

The problem with unlimited plans is when people constantly watch
ballgames or YouTube. I have no Internet cell phone but I can't imagine
audio being very expensive even on a limited plan.

People were thinking about satellite radio in the very late '80s and
early '90s; it took then until the turn of the century to get the birds
up and running (XM began broadcasting to the entire U.S. public on
September 25th, 2001, and Sirius did so on July 1st, 2002. Together
Sirius/XM now has more than 15 million subscribers (a lot better than HD
radio, eh?), so even though I think you're correct that it'll slowly die
due to 3G/4G, overall it's a concept that will likely end up having
lasted at least a good 25-30 years, which certainly isn't half-bad.

That's true, one can make money with a technology that's only lasting a
relatively short time.

 

[[email protected]]

It would help a whole lot if HD radio wasn't $125 fir a clock radio.
Or perhaps someone thinks it isn't price sensitive.

I don't think it is (price sensitive). I paid twice that for my XM radio.

 

[Martin Brown]

And that was before transmission issues

Grant.

Which are those? In the UK the main terrestrial commercial channel
decided that "broadcasting" was not one of its *core* activities and so
outsourced it to some cheap and nasty cowboy outfit. They got their
comeuppance during the world cup when their HD channel ran an
advertising break across Englands opening goal. A genuine own goal.

<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-England-goal-after-ITV-shows-commercial.html>

I think Joergs best bet if he has plenty of signal but suffers multipath
from passing aircraft is to use a phased array of vertical smaller
aerials with the nulls arranged to hit the problem area of sky.

Even a pair combined on equal length coax might provide enough vertical
selectivity if placed at the right separation...

If I were him I would investigate a cheap satellite dish to see what is
actually available.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Joerg]

Which are those? In the UK the main terrestrial commercial channel
decided that "broadcasting" was not one of its *core* activities and so
outsourced it to some cheap and nasty cowboy outfit. They got their
comeuppance during the world cup when their HD channel ran an
advertising break across Englands opening goal. A genuine own goal.

<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-England-goal-after-ITV-shows-commercial.html>


I think Joergs best bet if he has plenty of signal but suffers multipath
from passing aircraft is to use a phased array of vertical smaller
aerials with the nulls arranged to hit the problem area of sky.

Even a pair combined on equal length coax might provide enough vertical
selectivity if placed at the right separation...

If I were him I would investigate a cheap satellite dish to see what is
actually available.

The satellite dish and a bowtie I am going to try out some day but
anything more is beyond what TV is worth for us. Then we'll just add the
two of us to the ad revenue loss problems they already have.