Wow, first lead-free victim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage

[Eeyore]

No, at least in mobile phones (and probably most consumer stuff) it is still
gold for many of the chips (though some are flip-chipped BGA things).

http://www.calfinewire.com/mag_ics.asp

" Generally speaking, the elements most commonly used to make bonding wire are
gold and aluminum. "

So what devices use aluminium ?

Graham

 

[Spurious Response]

http://www.calfinewire.com/mag_ics.asp

" Generally speaking, the elements most commonly used to make bonding wire are
gold and aluminum. "

So what devices use aluminium ?

Damn near everything.

 

[Eeyore]

Damn near everything.

That's what I thought. What would be the reason to use expensive gold ?

So, you'd agree that it's not worth 'recycling' chips then ?

Graham

 

[Chris Jones]

http://www.calfinewire.com/mag_ics.asp

" Generally speaking, the elements most commonly used to make bonding wire
are gold and aluminum. "

So what devices use aluminium ?

Graham

I have seen aluminium wire used for high power devices (e.g. where the wire
is 0.5mm thick, gold would get very expensive).

I think that aluminium wire is used for ultrasonic wedge bonding whereas
usually gold is used for thermo-compresion ball bonding like in the
following document where they mention that the wire is gold:
http://www.amkor.com/products/notes_papers/StackedDie_Package_Design_Guidelines_IMAPS2004.pdf

Chris

 

[krw]

I have seen aluminium wire used for high power devices (e.g. where the wire
is 0.5mm thick, gold would get very expensive).

I thought high power devices used copper lead frames or C4-flip-chip.

I think that aluminium wire is used for ultrasonic wedge bonding whereas
usually gold is used for thermo-compresion ball bonding like in the
following document where they mention that the wire is gold:
http://www.amkor.com/products/notes_papers/StackedDie_Package_Design_Guidelines_IMAPS2004.pdf

It would seem that the welding technique would be dictated by the
material, not the other way around.

 

[Chris Jones]

I thought high power devices used copper lead frames or C4-flip-chip.
http://www.amkor.com/products/notes_papers/StackedDie_Package_Design_Guidelines_IMAPS2004.pdf

It would seem that the welding technique would be dictated by the
material, not the other way around.

Well sometimes the welding technique is dictated by the die size and
package, for example if it is necessary to bond from a pad down to the
ground paddle that is nuder the die, and the bond goes to a location on the
paddle that is very close to the edge of the die, it is done using a "RSSB"
downbond where they start bonding a ball onto the pad on the die, then
break it off so that just a ball is left on the pad, then make another ball
and bond that to the ground paddle near the die, and bring that up and
wedge bond it onto the ball that is already on the die. I think they
probably couldn't do that with aluminium.

Chris

 

[Spurious Response]

That's what I thought. What would be the reason to use expensive gold ?

So, you'd agree that it's not worth 'recycling' chips then ?

Graham

Not much in the chips. The gold is in finger platings, contacts, pins,
sockets. Not really much on consumer goods.

Copper is a big recovery item as well.

Hell, they probably make more money simply gathering the solder that
was used on them.

 

[Eeyore]

Not much in the chips. The gold is in finger platings, contacts, pins,
sockets. Not really much on consumer goods.

Copper is a big recovery item as well.

Hell, they probably make more money simply gathering the solder that
was used on them.

I'd like to see the economics of it. I wouldn't be surprised if costs exceed return if
done in the west.

Graham

 

[Fred Abse]

And you're still allowed to put great slabs of lead on your roof where the
acid rain can get all over it

In Europe, that has been going on for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

The next EU directive will ban cathedrals, retrospectively, of course.

 

[Fred Abse]

you can calculate from that what the gold from
a phone would be worth, but I can't be bothered to work it out right now.
It would not be worth much,

I remember, many years ago, looking into getting the gold off a large
quantity (several tons) of scrap gold plated waveguide bits and pieces.

I was told that the sample assayed out at about 2 bucks, but that it would
cost about five bucks to get it off.

 

[[email protected]]

Gotta make all them bullets.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That reminds me of a problem the US Army had. Some environmentalist
types managed to talk them into/force the use of lead free bullets on
one of their rifle ranges. What resulted was apparently the soil
particles latch onto the lead atoms and basically and hold it in
place. When they started using the lead free bullets, once the
bullets were in the ground for a bit, this metal started replacing the
lead, which then caused it to leach into the ground water table,
resulting in a mini-disaster, and millions of tax payer dollars are
still being expended in an attempt to keep the disaster from spreading.

 

[Chris Jones]

In Europe, that has been going on for hundreds, if not thousands, of
years.

The next EU directive will ban cathedrals, retrospectively, of course.

At least it would be fair and consistent then.

 

[Chris Jones]

I remember, many years ago, looking into getting the gold off a large
quantity (several tons) of scrap gold plated waveguide bits and pieces.

I was told that the sample assayed out at about 2 bucks, but that it would
cost about five bucks to get it off.

But I wish I had invested in some gold "many years ago", then I'd have made
quite a profit. If you still had that old scrap you might find that the
economics have changed now.
http://goldmoney.com/en/charts/0usd120.png

Of course more recent scrap probably has less gold in it precisely because
the price has gone up so much.

Chris

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Wow, first lead-free vicim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage.
I just did read that as a cause of the Xbox problems (red ring of death,
3 blinking red LEDs) now the lead free solder is mentioned.
It desintegrates over time at the high temperatures.
MS fixes it by adding an extra fan and heatpipe.
MS will make a new Xbox design (Falcon).

If this is correct we can expact more multi million PC fun....

Source (in German):
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/92447

Wrong....Microsoft is a victum of their own greed.

They shipped a product without sufficient testing.

Whether they used lead free solder or bubble gum to put the product
together, they are responsible to make sure the product works as
advertised.

They can make all the excuses they want but they sold a product to a
public claiming certain capbilities. If they can't deliver, then it is
their problem.

Maybe next time they will listen to the engineers instead of the
marketeers.

TMT

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

I have been doing some googling on the xbox subject, and one thing I found related
to reballing ballgrid GPUs.
As there is no major announcement from the GPU manufacturer for a 100 million
charge ;-) it must not the GPU itself, but the solder balls detoriating.
This may well be due to thermal cycling, but could also be because of simply
overheating combined with board bending, what not.
Or perhaps bonding issues of the lead-free solder to the copper?
MS is not forecoming with any details.
It would be good if they did.

I do not understand either why lead is being banned, it is not dangerous in this
form unles you start licking it.
And licking it is _very_ difficult with a ballgrid.
LOL- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You will hear nothing from Microsoft...and what will be said will tell
you little.

This type of information is extremely valuable (hundreds of millions
of dollars) to their competitors.

TMT

 

[Spurious Response]

Of course more recent scrap probably has less gold in it precisely because
the price has gone up so much.

That and the absence of mil specs. Platings of silver and gold, as
well as anodization thicknesses, etc. all previously had mil specs for
them, and various levels so that the cheapest version needed for the job
could be chosen.

Without mil specs, the manufacturers have all resorted to the absolute
cheapest method where they can still make the claim that the element is
even present.

It is measured in microns.

 

[Spurious Response]

Wrong....Microsoft is a victum of their own greed.

Wrong. You are a victim of your own stupidity. Hell, you can't even
spell the word. You must still be a teen aged adolescent twit.

They shipped a product without sufficient testing.

Your mother gave birth to you and did not adequately flush your lame
ass down the toilet.

Whether they used lead free solder or bubble gum to put the product
together, they are responsible to make sure the product works as
advertised.

No shit. DO you actually think they do not know what their obligations
are as a manufacturer?

They can make all the excuses they want but they sold a product to a
public claiming certain capbilities. If they can't deliver, then it is
their problem.

That's usually the way it works, but just who the **** do you think you
are enlightening here?

Maybe next time they will listen to the engineers instead of the
marketeers.

A complete, and utterly retarded speculation on your part.

I am quite sure that the engineers would never have released a product
destined to have a thermal failure based on some stupid "marketeer's"
instructions. It was more likely due to getting the product to market
quickly, and long term testing was not able to be done.

That is the case with many consumer level products.

Commercial, industrial, and military products have different design,
manufacturing, test, and quality assurance methodologies applied to them,
and many consumer products have less restrictive manufacturing cycle
methodologies applied to them.

So you may have gotten their obligation(s) right, but you missed the
reason entirely.

TMT

Totally Moot Teasings?

 

[Spurious Response]

You will hear nothing from Microsoft...and what will be said will tell
you little.

This type of information is extremely valuable (hundreds of millions
of dollars) to their competitors.

Bullshit. The idiot parents that buy this stuff for their kids buy it
on kid demand, not any of your qualitative reasonings.

It will likely not even put a key scratch, much less a dent in their
numbers. The new XBOX will likely sell just as well either way. In
fact, many old XBOX 360 owners will buy the new one even if their current
one is destined to fail or even has already. For them, it is called brand
loyalty, as well as having an entire library of games which they NEED
that gaming console to play.

Nearly every one in the world that buys consumer electronics products
can expect to have a few hundred dollars worth of dogs in their life
before it is over.

Hardly anyone even thinks twice about pitching their old cell phones in
a box after they get a new one.

Same thing goes for "space phones" in the home, and many other things.

I have several old stereo systems in storage because I favor my current
model.

Old shit happens.

 

[Lamey]

Wrong. You are a victim of your own stupidity. Hell, you can't even
spell the word. You must still be a teen aged adolescent twit.

Your mother gave birth to you and did not adequately flush your lame
ass down the toilet.


No shit. DO you actually think they do not know what their obligations
are as a manufacturer?


That's usually the way it works, but just who the **** do you think you
are enlightening here?


A complete, and utterly retarded speculation on your part.

I am quite sure that the engineers would never have released a product
destined to have a thermal failure based on some stupid "marketeer's"
instructions. It was more likely due to getting the product to market
quickly, and long term testing was not able to be done.

That is the case with many consumer level products.

Commercial, industrial, and military products have different design,
manufacturing, test, and quality assurance methodologies applied to them,
and many consumer products have less restrictive manufacturing cycle
methodologies applied to them.

So you may have gotten their obligation(s) right, but you missed the
reason entirely.


Totally Moot Teasings?

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[Michael A. Terrell]

That and the absence of mil specs. Platings of silver and gold, as
well as anodization thicknesses, etc. all previously had mil specs for
them, and various levels so that the cheapest version needed for the job
could be chosen.

Without mil specs, the manufacturers have all resorted to the absolute
cheapest method where they can still make the claim that the element is
even present.

It is measured in microns.

Kind of like one of the Army cooks while I was i basic. If you ordered
a burger, he passed it over a match. If you asked for a well done
burger, he lit the match first. ;-)

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