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Wow, first lead-free victim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage

J

Jan Panteltje

But surely there are all sorts of gaseous nasties produced on a
burning 747 that have nothing to do with depleted uranium, right?
Like burning plastic, foam, wire insulation, paint...

But we do that every day.... These garbage burners are all over the country.
DU in the 9/11 cleanup? First I've heard of it. Googling <depleted
uranium new york 9/11> brings up a bunch of bizarre theories.
Oh, here's a(n in)credible source:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/depleted_uranium.html

A very nice link.
I recommend reading it.
It says 1,500 Kg of DU counterweights were used in 747 wings, and
speculates such were involved in 9/11. Alas, the planes that struck
in New York were 767s.

I am not sure, not convinced, the 747 counterweight was in the BACK.
Makes no sense putting it in the wings? it is to keep point of gravity
in the right place.

An inconvenient quote:
" ' Boeing has never used DU on either the 757 or the 767,
and we no longer use it on the 747,' Leslie M. Nichols,
product spokesperson for Boeing's 767, told AFP.
'Sometime ago, we switched to tungsten, because it is
heavier, more readily available and more cost effective.' "

Cost effective so as to not have to pay zillions in lawsuits in later years :)

http://www.xzone-radio.com/news/researchersclaim.htm :
The International 9/11 Citizen's War Crimes Tribunal documents that Leuren
Moret reported for example, "elevated radiation readings downwind from the
Pentagon in Washington, D.C. on September 11, 2001. Two days after 9/11, the
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) confirmed that the Pentagon crash
site rubble was radioactive and that the probable contaminant was Depleted
Uranium (DU)."

What do I know ?
Tungsten, okay, but heavier than uranium? Hmm, it seems it actually
is: 19.25 g/cm^3 vs. 19.1g/cm^3 for uranium.



It's a heavy metal, and likely not very nice on that account, but it
doesn't sound especially nasty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium#Characteristics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium#Precautions

I wonder how it compares with, for example, burning iron. Iron
overdose from vitamins is, AIUI, a--if not the--leading cause of
poisoning deaths in US children.

I dunno, iron in itself is not very toxic I think.
And it does not stay radio-active for a million years.
If yo uprocess Uranium so it gets depleted, -always)_ little bits of Pu will be present
in the material.
Now _one_ atom of Pu inhaled and settling in your body can kill you over time.
Like a permanent Xray.
With Du dust inhaled, the probability of you inhaling more then one atom of Pu is huge.

Not ignored, discovered.

Often testing is done, and if some results are not favorite to the product or intended market, then
those results are not published.
And the public is used as guinnea pig.
If you're the first to do something, you're
also often the first to discover it wasn't a good idea!

That is why EU tries to restrict gen manipulated food inports, we will watch how US fares,
if all goes well we can always allow it.
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Frithiof said:
I think The Commision should agree to use the protypes of the ROHS-compliant
pacemakers First!


They should have live Claymore mines on their desk, with a firing
mechanism made to ROHS standards. When the tin cracks, they won't have
to resign.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
J

James Arthur

But we do that every day.... These garbage burners are all over the country.

Do they simply heap up the trash, then explode and burn it in jet
fuel while allowing the fumes free escape, or are they more careful?
A very nice link.
I recommend reading it.


I am not sure, not convinced, the 747 counterweight was in the BACK.
Makes no sense putting it in the wings? it is to keep point of gravity
in the right place.

My slip: (http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiation/hppos/hppos206.html)
"The 747 airplane program utilized DU weights
for mass balance of outboard elevator and upper
rudder assemblies on the first 550 aircraft built. [...]
Depending upon the model, each aircraft had
either 21 or 31 weights."

But still, the point is that *there wasn't any* DU in the New York
planes. If firefighters in New York and Amsterdam both got sick--
which they did--then DU doesn't explain that.
Cost effective so as to not have to pay zillions in lawsuits in later years :)
From the link above it seems that they were prone to corrosion, and
quite a maintenance nuisance. Also from the link above, it's clear
that any and all use of DU requires either a license or exemption from
the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. That means that it's use is public
information. The websites that claim DU is used secretly for
commercial purposes are wrong.
http://www.xzone-radio.com/news/researchersclaim.htm:
The International 9/11 Citizen's War Crimes Tribunal documents that Leuren
Moret reported for example, "elevated radiation readings downwind from the
Pentagon in Washington, D.C. on September 11, 2001. Two days after 9/11, the
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) confirmed that the Pentagon crash
site rubble was radioactive and that the probable contaminant was Depleted
Uranium (DU)."

What do I know ?

The Pentagon was stuck by American Airlines flight 77, a 757. No
DU.

A point made time and again by a friend in the industry is that
radioactivity is extremely easy to pinpoint and identify. How? It's
radioactive! It's much easier to find and clean up than other
pollutants. By contrast, ordinary chemical poisions can lay
unnoticed, hidden, and cause lots more harm for that reason.
I dunno, iron in itself is not very toxic I think.
And it does not stay radio-active for a million years.

Iron's worse--it's readily absorbed, and it stays toxic FOREVER.
It's also quite abundant--quick, hide!

The long half-life of uranium is a good thing, as it means atoms are
decaying infrequently. That is, it isn't very radioactive. It also
isn't very soluble, which is also good--it passes through without
giving you much radioactive dose. (That works against you if you've
inhaled it, as it'll linger in your lungs.)

The Wikipedia article characterizes the radiologic dangers:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium#Radiological_hazards)

"Depleted uranium is not a significant health hazard unless
it is taken into the body. External exposure to radiation
from depleted uranium is generally not a major concern
because the alpha particle emitted by its isotopes travel
only a few centimeters in air or can be stopped by a sheet
of paper. Also, the uranium-235 that remains in depleted
uranium emits only a small amount of low-energy gamma
radiation."
If yo uprocess Uranium so it gets depleted, -always)_ little bits of Pu will be present
in the material.
Now _one_ atom of Pu inhaled and settling in your body can kill you over time.
Like a permanent Xray.
With Du dust inhaled, the probability of you inhaling more then one atom of Pu is huge.

A good point, though I'm skeptical about the "one atom" part.

Mostly, it's a bad idea to inhale just about *any* chemical; most of
the danger from uranium is chemical, not radiologic. Radiation makes
for a good emotional issue, but not much substance. Clean a bridge
and breath some rust dust, work in a coal mine--or any mine--and
you'll be in big trouble too.

Best regards,
James Arthur
 
J

James Arthur

Yes, DU ceased being used for the counterweights ages back.


Yes, German armour piercing shells are tungsten tipped not DU AIUI.

I found this curiosity en-route....

" On February 20, 2001, a truck leaving the recycling firm IMCO Recycling of Ohio, Inc. in
Uhrichville, OH, set off the radiation monitor at the facility's exit. The truck was carrying
ingots of aluminum from recycled airplane parts. Further investigation by the company determined
that depleted uranium counterweights had been among the aluminum airplane parts that were melted
and processed into the ingots. Depleted uranium counterweights were also found among aluminum
parts awaiting melting.
A total of 118,000 pounds (53.5 metric tonnes) of aluminum ingots were found to be contaminated
with depleted uranium. Radiation levels were measured to be about 50 microRoentgen per hour
(several times normal background radiation levels). "

http://www.wise-uranium.org/dviss.html

Graham

Boneheads. Some time back we had a batch of Mexican steel that was
contaminated with some hospital material, Co-60 IIRC.

Cheers,
James Arthur
 
J

Jan Panteltje

On a sunny day (Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:38:15 -0700) it happened James Arthur
<[email protected]>:

OK, I am no nuculear expert, it seems to me that many different sites
give as many different opinions if there was DU in the 9/11 planes or not...
I would not really just take the word of a company representative for it.

One thing about iron, when I moved to where I live now, close to the sea,
I filled up at one pump, and there was a rust-hole in the pump.
I pointed it out to the guy and he told me: 'happens to anything iron here in weeks'.
I did not really think much of that remark until I did see metal sheets rusting away
in front of my eyes at home.
Not to mention a good bike and other useful stuff...
Humid sea wind with rain...
Is iron oxide dangerous? Must be tons of it out here ;-)

As to how the garbage is burned I dunno, never been there, they made fuss about
dioxine some years ago and keeping cows inside in around those places.
I am pretty sure they filter things.

If you have to believe GreenPeace then anything is dangerous.
I am personally 100% for nuclear power.

:)
 
J

Joerg

Jan said:
Wow, first lead-free vicim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage.
I just did read that as a cause of the Xbox problems (red ring of death,
3 blinking red LEDs) now the lead free solder is mentioned.
It desintegrates over time at the high temperatures.
MS fixes it by adding an extra fan and heatpipe.
MS will make a new Xbox design (Falcon).

If this is correct we can expact more multi million PC fun....

Source (in German):
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/92447

I understand German well but I fail to see any mention of being a victim
of lead-free soldering in that article.

Not that I like RoHS. I don't like it at all.
 
J

Joerg

Don said:
thermal stressing:
it was an accident waiting to happen.

this is a message I got from a large EU PCB manufacturer a while back:

======================================================================

if you ask me ROHS is nothing but trouble ;) we completely moved to ROHS
in February this year, but had great pressure from Texas Instruments and
ST Microelectronics since September last year and the major problem was
to move out all components with lead plating on their legs away from
our stock, it took about 6 month to completely use all old components
and fill our stock with only lead free components.

now we produce our boards with immersion gold finish which increase the
cost of bare boards by 20% and the lead free soldering alloy and
consumables are at twice higher prices than normal SnPb, all this I
could accept, but the final result is about 20% less reliable boards,
the Pb is the soft component of SnPb alloy, the new Pb-free alloys miss
this "soft" component and are less reliable to vibrations and
temperature changes, as Pb-free soldering joints tend to crack sooner
than SnPb joints when exposed to cold-hot termal shocks, this is why
Pb-free boards are not allowed in medical, military, automotive
applications where reliability is must.

Well, that's just the problem. "a large EU PCB manufacturer" isn't going
to cut it. Except for the Swatch story I haven't read anything yet that
would provide company names and telephone numbers. Until that happens
nothing is going to stop the bureaucrats. They'll say it's all just
rumors and grapevine talk.
 
E

Eeyore

Jan said:
OK, I am no nuculear expert, it seems to me that many different sites
give as many different opinions if there was DU in the 9/11 planes or not...
I would not really just take the word of a company representative for it.

Oh for heaven's sake.

It's not a damn conspiracy. It's well known to anyone who's ever taken an intrerest that
Boeing stopped using DU ages back. In fact it was the Amsterdam crash that brought it to
widespread attention. I think there was some talk of removing the DU but I expect it's
not realistic.

Planes have to be certificated, manufacturers can't just make this stuff up.


Graham
 
R

Rich Grise

It's called heavy metal poisoning.

In that respect, how is it different from lead, tungsten, osmium, or,
for that matter, gold?

Thanks,
Rich
 
J

john jardine

Didi said:
I first had to laugh, but God help us nobody reads it, and starts using
it.
[...]But I also wonder (smiling in anticipated/hoped amusement) how do they
balance tires, I have a friend who works in a car-repair shop,
I'll ask him when I see him these days. My guess
is they use lead and have not heard about ROHS - yet.

Dimiter

I read that you can buy shotgun shells with Bismuth pellets, ideal for
killing things in a Green manner. The stuff is heavy, maybe fine for use as
tyre weights.
Seem's it's also got interesting electrical properties. Would be handy to
empty out some shells but not an option in UK.
 
J

joseph2k

Eeyore said:
Do you happen to have a link to any references about that ?

Graham

Once i had to design the test equipment to do controllable thermal fatigue
testing. It was for a part that the manufacturer wanted to get space
qualified but was having failure rate issues due to the die attach solder
failing.
 
Yes, DU ceased being used for the counterweights ages back.


Yes, German armour piercing shells are tungsten tipped not DU AIUI.

I found this curiosity en-route....

" On February 20, 2001, a truck leaving the recycling firm IMCO Recycling of Ohio, Inc. in
Uhrichville, OH, set off the radiation monitor at the facility's exit. The truck was carrying
ingots of aluminum from recycled airplane parts. Further investigation by the company determined
that depleted uranium counterweights had been among the aluminum airplane parts that were melted
and processed into the ingots. Depleted uranium counterweights were also found among aluminum
parts awaiting melting.
A total of 118,000 pounds (53.5 metric tonnes) of aluminum ingots were found to be contaminated
with depleted uranium. Radiation levels were measured to be about 50 microRoentgen per hour
(several times normal background radiation levels). "

http://www.wise-uranium.org/dviss.html

Graham


They weren't planning to make aluminum foil out of it, were they?

Michael
 
S

Spurious Response

I would not really just take the word of a company representative for it.

Jeez. If Boeing says they stopped using DU in the plane frames years
ago, you can believe it.
 
S

Spurious Response

I understand German well but I fail to see any mention of being a victim
of lead-free soldering in that article.

Not that I like RoHS. I don't like it at all.


Silly rabbit. He was talking about the XBox 360 being an industry
victim.
 
S

Spurious Response

In that respect, how is it different from lead, tungsten, osmium, or,
for that matter, gold?

Gold is not toxic. Not in metallic form.

You didn't even mention Mercury or Cadmium, and Cadmium is a very bad
metal to **** with.
 
S

Spurious Response

They are even trying to make chocolate without significant chocolate
content


Been around for ages. Called "White Chocolate". Zero chocolate content.
 
J

Jan Panteltje

I understand German well

Als eine mögliche Fehlerursache vermuten Experten das auf der Platine
--------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^----------^^^^^^^^
verwendete bleifreie Lot, das wegen der häufigen Temperaturwechsel brüchig
-----------^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
werden könnte.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
but I fail to see any mention of being a victim
of lead-free soldering in that article.

Also warum nicht?
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Planes have to be certificated, manufacturers can't just make this stuff up.

If they can make up nukes in Iraq, changing DU content in a plane is kids stuff.
I have seen that man selling fish and chips stands as biological weapon labs
to the UN.

hehe
LOL
:)
 
E

Eeyore

Jan said:
it happened Eeyore wrote


If they can make up nukes in Iraq, changing DU content in a plane is kids stuff.

Consider yourself dismissed as an idiot k00k. Just saying things doesn't make then
true.



Graham
 
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