Wow, first lead-free victim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage

[[email protected]]

They don't blame lead free soldering, but they blame poor thermal
design. The designers just cut too many corners.

Not exactly.

I am looking into this, and one aspect is teh higher surface tension
of lead-free solders (then SnPb),
A higher surface tension means it will ball itself together again if
heated
enough, rather then wet the copper contact pads.
That is enough, end if MS design did not take that into account you
get exactly this problem.
http://www.hakkousa.com/lead-free/What is the Difference.pdf

I aint't saying it is this, but the German article says something
like:
'Experts think', so who am I to question... (in this case
anyways ;-) )

 

[Matt]

Any chance of translating the relevant part ?

Graham

www.babelfish.com produces the following from the text at the above link:

65-nm-Chips are to reduce failure rate of the Xbox 360 message to read out While Microsoft from official side does not give any data concerning the fact whether "inakzeptabel the high" failure rates of the Xbox are to be attributed 360 to a fundamental error in the hardware Design or schlampiger processing, meanwhile obviously works the Redmonder on a complete Redesign of the console. That at least maintains Dean Takahashi, author of the book "Opening the Xbox" in an article of the silicone Valley daily paper San Jose Mercury news. According to Takahashi Microsoft will present a new hardware Design of the console to the autumn, which runs internally under the name "Falcon". Falcon uses a new manufacturing process, which permits it to manufacture the diagram chip of AMD/ATI and the main processor of IBM in the 65-nm-Prozess instead of so far in the 90-nm-Prozess. IBM had already announced in March to change the manufacturing process over in its chip factory in East Fishkill

in the US Bundeststaat New York to 65 Nm. There among other things also the Cell processor for the Playstation 3 is manufactured. So also energy hunger is to be gezuegelt by Sonys console by the 65-nm-Prozess. In to two years the process could be changed over then to 45 Nm, whereby the manufacturing costs and the power input would continue to sink. The new Falcon Design would permit it to Microsoft according to Takahashi to make smaller and integrate possibly even in the housing of the Xbox 360 the power pack. The smaller chip structures permit not only a more favorable manufacturing, but also a smaller power input, which positively affects the heat development in the housing and the noise level of the exhausts. Above all the smaller heat development is the number of the losses with "talks ring OF Death" (RROD) to reduce. At present Microsoft makes do to screw with the repair an additional radiator into the console to which by a Heatpipe with the diagram chip radiator one con
nects. As a possible error cause experts assume the lead free plumb bob used on the plate, which could become fragile because of the frequent temperature changes. By the conversion in the production process Takahashi expects that Microsoft could achieve its goal of obtaining by June 2008 with the Xbox 360 profit. The ruecklagenbildung repairs already performed by approximately a billion US dollar for future and would load only the balance of the financial year 2007. In the subsequent years repair costs would not go to no more debited to the profit. Few days ago Microsoft had announced to extend the guarantee period of the Xbox 360 for losses with talks ring OF Death (RROD), with which the ring around the switching on button of the console red flashes, on three years. Customers, who would have already paid because of RROD losses repair costs, were gotten these by Microsoft refunded. Analysts estimate, which the RROD overtakes sooner or later at present each third Xbox 360.

 

[James Arthur]

Any chance of translating the relevant part ?

Graham

Here's my stab at it:

While Microsoft's official site gives no data whether the Xbox 360's
"unacceptably high" failure rate is grounded in fundamental hardware
design errors or sloppy manufacturing, Redmond is meanwhile obviously
working on a complete re-design of the console. That, at least,
according to Dean Takahashi, author of the book "Opening the Xbox," in
an article in the Silicon Valley newspaper "San Jose Mercury News."
According to Takahasi, Microsoft will present a new hardware design
for the console in autumn that goes internally by the code-name
"Falcon."

Falcon uses a new manufacturing process, one that allows AMD/ATI's
graphics chip and IBM's CPU to be built on a 65nm process instead of
the 90nm process used to date. IBM announced the conversion of its
East Fishkill fab to 65nm in March. Among other things, the Cell
processor for the Playstation 3 is also made there, so the power
consumption of the Sony console should also be reduced.

In 1-2 years the process could be migrated to 45nm, whereby the
manufacturing cost and power consumption would sink further.
According to Takahasi, the new Falcon design would allow Microsoft to
shrink the power supply and even possibly integrate it into the Xbox
360.

The new, smaller chip structures allow not only advantageous
manufacturing, but also a lower power consumption, which benefits the
heat production within the housing and the noise level of the fan.
Above all, the lower power (heat) dissipation should reduce the "Red
Ring of Death" (RROD) failures. For now Microsoft's making do by
kludging an additional heatsink into the console, which is connected
to the graphics chip with a heat pipe. Experts presume lead-free
solder used on the (Platine**)--which could become fractured due to
the frequent temperature changes--as one possible cause of the
failures.
[...]

(** sorry, I don't know this word)

Best,
James Arthur

 

[Matt]

Any chance of translating the relevant part ?

Graham

Cut the text and paste it into the box at www.babelfish.com.

 

[Eeyore]

www.babelfish.com produces the following from the text at the above link:

" As a possible error cause experts assume the lead free plumb bob used on the plate, which could become fragile because of the frequent temperature changes. 2

Thermal fatigue of the solder itself ? Is that possible ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Any chance of translating the relevant part ?

Graham

Here's my stab at it:

While Microsoft's official site gives no data whether the Xbox 360's
"unacceptably high" failure rate is grounded in fundamental hardware
design errors or sloppy manufacturing, Redmond is meanwhile obviously
working on a complete re-design of the console. That, at least,
according to Dean Takahashi, author of the book "Opening the Xbox," in
an article in the Silicon Valley newspaper "San Jose Mercury News."
According to Takahasi, Microsoft will present a new hardware design
for the console in autumn that goes internally by the code-name
"Falcon."

Falcon uses a new manufacturing process, one that allows AMD/ATI's
graphics chip and IBM's CPU to be built on a 65nm process instead of
the 90nm process used to date. IBM announced the conversion of its
East Fishkill fab to 65nm in March. Among other things, the Cell
processor for the Playstation 3 is also made there, so the power
consumption of the Sony console should also be reduced.

In 1-2 years the process could be migrated to 45nm, whereby the
manufacturing cost and power consumption would sink further.
According to Takahasi, the new Falcon design would allow Microsoft to
shrink the power supply and even possibly integrate it into the Xbox
360.

The new, smaller chip structures allow not only advantageous
manufacturing, but also a lower power consumption, which benefits the
heat production within the housing and the noise level of the fan.
Above all, the lower power (heat) dissipation should reduce the "Red
Ring of Death" (RROD) failures. For now Microsoft's making do by
kludging an additional heatsink into the console, which is connected
to the graphics chip with a heat pipe. Experts presume lead-free
solder used on the (Platine**)--which could become fractured due to
the frequent temperature changes--as one possible cause of the
failures.
[...]

(** sorry, I don't know this word)

PCB.

Cheers for the translation. So, they're suggesting the GPU unsolders itself ?

Graham

 

[James Arthur]

" As a possible error cause experts assume the lead free plumb bob used on the plate, which could become fragile because of the frequent temperature changes. 2

Thermal fatigue of the solder itself ? Is that possible ?

Graham

Yes.

James Arthur

 

[Eeyore]

Cut the text and paste it into the box at www.babelfish.com.

I hadn't done that since I know how poor the results typically are and
especially technical stuff.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Yes.

Do you happen to have a link to any references about that ?

Graham

 

[martin griffith]

What do you EU-types use for tire-balancing weights these days?

James Arthur

Depleted Uranium, of course


martin

 

[Eeyore]

What do you EU-types use for tire-balancing weights these days?

On steel wheels, steel weights AIUI.

I haven't needed mine rebalanced in 3 years so I've yet to find out how they
deal with alloys.

Graham

 

[Ancient_Hacker]

Wow, first lead-free victim: Microsoft Xbox 1 billion damage.

Er, Um, not quite just TIn as the culprit.

The XBox seems to have been generally poorly designed, mechanically
and thermally.

Just as one example that has led to thousands of failures in
warranty-- The power socket tends to break loose.
Now if you were designing a consumer box, tended to be used by
rambunctious youths, might not you give a few seconds extra thought
regarding simple mechanical issues, like fastening connectors
properly?

 

[Nico Coesel]

Not exactly.

I am looking into this, and one aspect is teh higher surface tension
of lead-free solders (then SnPb),
A higher surface tension means it will ball itself together again if
heated

When heated? If a chip gets hot enough to melt the tin, you have a
different problem.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

When heated? If a chip gets hot enough to melt the tin, you have a
different problem.

One thing mentioned on joystick.com was that the 'red ring of death' started after
a user started using the xbox on its side.
Maybe the chip just fell of?

 

[James Arthur]

Do you happen to have a link to any references about that ?

Graham

No. /

Oh, okay

This is the problem: (differential thermal expansion between solder,
substrate, and components leading to embrittlement and fracture of the
solder under thermal cycling)
http://www.ami.ac.uk/courses/topics/0162_sctm/index.html

Here's a reference that says Pb-free fractures more easily:
http://www.analogzone.com/grnt1017.pdf

And one that says the opposite:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3776/is_200412/ai_n9473486

Google "thermal solder fatigue" and take your pick.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[Jan Panteltje]

Depleted Uranium, of course

Oh My God.

I first had to laugh, but God help us nobody reads it, and starts using it.
Already 1 million Iraqi children and other people will suffer from that shit
for thousands of years to come.

 

[Didi]

I first had to laugh, but God help us nobody reads it, and starts using it.

Already 1 million Iraqi children and other people will suffer from that shit
for thousands of years to come.

That's a false scare. I have been witnessing the debate on the radsafe
mailing list for years now, it is a small group (mostly one person),
probably with an agenda he won't admit (he claims he is concerned
about the affected fertility/genetic code of young men because his
teenage daughter may eventually get one of those who are now in Iraq).
The fact is that the amounts in the environment are negligible; even
the "anti" crowd agrees they are no threat because of the
radioactivity,
they claim "heavy-metal" type of poisoning because the U evaporates
on impact and see, you can inhale a lot if you are even miles away.
IOW, complete nonsense. (Well you can inhale too much DU on impact
if you are inside the hit tank but I guess you will have more pressing
issues at this moment).

But I also wonder (smiling in anticipated/hoped amusement) how do they
balance tires, I have a friend who works in a car-repair shop,
I'll ask him when I see him these days. My guess
is they use lead and have not heard about ROHS - yet.

Dimiter

 

[Richard Henry]

Something about a lead-free solder (used to connect the heat pipe to
the graphics chip) becomming brittle? And the fix is a screw? The XBOX
360 runs *hot* (and noisy with the fans). That (thermal fatigue) was a
big problem with a lot of power semis back 30 years go. If you cycled
them just right you could kill them in a month or two, all the time
staying well within specs.

BTW, despite the EU's ill-advised attempts to ban an element from the
period table, we have some rather interesting price changes for lead:

(look at the 5-year price chart near the middle):

http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/lead_historical_large.html#5years

Gotta make all them bullets.

 

[[email protected]]

For the life of me I can't figure out what's worth 'recycling' from old circuit
boards.

I know there is companies that make a living buying old electronics,
schredding it and extracting the metals, I assume gold from bond
wires and such are one of the big ones. wouldn't surprise me if it
made more sense to extract gold from old electronics than from ore
you have to dig up 2km down

-Lasse

 

[Nico Coesel]

One thing mentioned on joystick.com was that the 'red ring of death' started after
a user started using the xbox on its side.
Maybe the chip just fell of?

There may be a dozen of reasons why this could happen. If a lot of
units have this problem the cause is either bad design or a production
process that has not been well controlled. It takes time and
experience to get a reflow oven to work well for a certain PCB. This
goes for both leaded and lead free soldering.