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Why do electric powered automobiles need to be so complicated?

G

Genome

Thanks to all who replied! Other than the a-hole who thinks too much
of himself. Nice to know that he/she only represents a small part of
this group.

I would apologise but that might suggest I have understood your percieved
error of my ways and believe you are correct.

Ah yes. I do understand.

Since you probably feel you are correct I am sorry.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...need+to+be+so+complicated?&btnG=Google+Search

Amazing.

In fact now I know you were absolutely right!!!!!!

DNA
 
I understand why gears are required with an internal combustion engine,
to keep the RPMs at an optimal (or required) range. Also it is
difficult to adjust the engine RPMs by a finite amount. For example,
it would take a very well tuned engine to hold an exact RPM of 1200,
and then increase smoothly to exactly 1210.

I didn't think that was an issue with an electric motor because there
isn't such a limited optimal range (they can run well at 1 RPM, or
10,000 RPM). It also seems like they are able to hold exact RPMs, and
adjust smoothly from 1200 RPMs to 1210 RPMs (for example) when coupled
with a computerized speed control to allow just the right amount of
current to flow.

If the above is correct, about electric motors, then you have plenty of
power cruising around at 10 RPMs, which you could gear to be 1 MPH (to
get your car going). Then you could smoothly accelerate up to 100
RPMs, and be going 10 MPH -- all the way up to 1,000 RPMs, for 100 MPH.
I'm not sure what the actual optimal gearing would be; maybe 10,000
RPMs would be 100 MPH. However, you shouldn't need to shift (change
gears) as long as HP was the same at any RPM, and you had a finite
control over the RPM.
 
D

Don Lancaster

I didn't think that was an issue with an electric motor because there
isn't such a limited optimal range (they can run well at 1 RPM, or
10,000 RPM).


There most definitely is an efficiency optimal "sweet spot" on most
motors that is exceptionally limited.

Torque conversion of one sort or another is a must.




--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
 
R

Roger Hamlett

I understand why gears are required with an internal combustion engine,
to keep the RPMs at an optimal (or required) range. Also it is
difficult to adjust the engine RPMs by a finite amount. For example,
it would take a very well tuned engine to hold an exact RPM of 1200,
and then increase smoothly to exactly 1210.

I didn't think that was an issue with an electric motor because there
isn't such a limited optimal range (they can run well at 1 RPM, or
10,000 RPM). It also seems like they are able to hold exact RPMs, and
adjust smoothly from 1200 RPMs to 1210 RPMs (for example) when coupled
with a computerized speed control to allow just the right amount of
current to flow.
I'm afraid this is wrong. You can make a motor spin at just about any
speed you want. But plot the power output, and heat generated, and you
will see why gears are needed.
If the above is correct, about electric motors, then you have plenty of
power cruising around at 10 RPMs, which you could gear to be 1 MPH (to
get your car going). Then you could smoothly accelerate up to 100
RPMs, and be going 10 MPH -- all the way up to 1,000 RPMs, for 100 MPH.
I'm not sure what the actual optimal gearing would be; maybe 10,000
RPMs would be 100 MPH. However, you shouldn't need to shift (change
gears) as long as HP was the same at any RPM, and you had a finite
control over the RPM.
HP, is not the same at any RPM. Basically a motor draws less current, and
produces less torque as it spins faster. When you remove the load, it's
speed will increase to the point where the output torque match the
frictional losses in the system. The motor at this point is producing no
useable power. The get useable power out of the motor, you increase the
load, and spin it slower, as you do so, the current flow increases, the
heat generated rises, torque rises, and the delivered power increases. As
the load increases further, and the rotational speed decreases more, the
power reduces, with further rotational speed decreases. The output HP, is
the product of the torque, and the rotational speed. At 0RPM, a motor
again actually produces no power at all!. At low revs, you cannot increase
the supplied voltage (to give more torque), without burning out the motor.
In theory, the maximum power should be at half the 'free running' unloaded
RPM.
It is possible to design traction motors with wide useable rev ranges, but
they are effectively larger motors 'turned down', to flatten the output
power curve. As such, larger, heavier, and less efficient, than a smaller
motor with multiple gears. Even a wide range motor, would not cope well
with the range of revs needed for a car application.

Best Wishes
 
R

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian

[snip]

Scan back yourself and you'll see I specified holding a job here - not
being a crook.

This is really my commentary on the issue of 'illegal' aliens. I just
have no problem with anyone who comes here to work. Friends of mine
often hire guys right off the local street corner here when they need
some heavy work done. Far as I have seen, they are really good
workers.

Luhan

But they're sinking the health care systems in places like Yuma, AZ.

Thompson, you idiot. The problem with that isn't illegal immigrants,
it's Socialism.

Thanks,
Rich

What we need is a national health-care system at the basic level, run
by techs and nurses and providing basic care - checkups, prenatal
advice, immunizations, basic medicines but no exotics - free. It would
be cheap, especially with volume-purchased generic drugs and no
malpractice liability issues. It will never happen, of course, because
it would be a "two tier" system, and saving a lot of pain and death
wouldn't be enough to make the concept acceptable to Teddy or Hilary.

John

Notwithstanding it'd be flagrant socialism, maybe even communism, which in
case you haven't checked lately isn't exactly in the United States charter.

Thanks,
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

There most definitely is an efficiency optimal "sweet spot" on most
motors that is exceptionally limited.

Torque conversion of one sort or another is a must.

Well, it _is_ doable, albeit admittedly probably kinda wasteful. I once
saw a 25 HP 3-phase motor on one of those controller thinngies that
produced full torque from zero all the way up to rated RPM (which wasn't
very fast - whatever the standard 3-phase 60 Hz induction motor runs at).

It sounded kinda weird while running up the RPM - it was like the PWM was
at some harmonic of the drive frequency or something.

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Richard Henry

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian said:
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:58:18 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:


[snip]

Scan back yourself and you'll see I specified holding a job here - not
being a crook.

This is really my commentary on the issue of 'illegal' aliens. I just
have no problem with anyone who comes here to work. Friends of mine
often hire guys right off the local street corner here when they need
some heavy work done. Far as I have seen, they are really good
workers.

Luhan

But they're sinking the health care systems in places like Yuma, AZ.


Thompson, you idiot. The problem with that isn't illegal immigrants,
it's Socialism.

Thanks,
Rich

What we need is a national health-care system at the basic level, run
by techs and nurses and providing basic care - checkups, prenatal
advice, immunizations, basic medicines but no exotics - free. It would
be cheap, especially with volume-purchased generic drugs and no
malpractice liability issues. It will never happen, of course, because
it would be a "two tier" system, and saving a lot of pain and death
wouldn't be enough to make the concept acceptable to Teddy or Hilary.

John

Notwithstanding it'd be flagrant socialism, maybe even communism, which in
case you haven't checked lately isn't exactly in the United States
charter.

Basic medical care is communist?
 
J

John Perry

I understand why gears are required with an internal combustion engine,
to keep the RPMs at an optimal (or required) range. Also it is
difficult to adjust the engine RPMs by a finite amount. For example,
it would take a very well tuned engine to hold an exact RPM of 1200,
and then increase smoothly to exactly 1210.

I didn't think that was an issue with an electric motor because there
isn't such a limited optimal range (they can run well at 1 RPM, or
10,000 RPM). It also seems like they are able to hold exact RPMs, and
adjust smoothly from 1200 RPMs to 1210 RPMs (for example) when coupled
with a computerized speed control to allow just the right amount of
current to flow.

Close enough so far.
If the above is correct, about electric motors, then you have plenty of
power cruising around at 10 RPMs, which you could gear to be 1 MPH (to
get your car going).

And then you infer a completely wrong relationship.

Motor power is a function of torque (which is more or less constant at a
given _current_), and rotational speed. Maximum torque produces zero
mechanical power at stall (when the rotor is motionless). When it is
moving slowly, it produces little power. When it is moving fast, it's
producing lots of power.

_That's_ why you need gears. At low speed, you need considerable
mechanical power to accelerate the vehicle. You only have a certain
torque available. You can do as the railroads do, and size your motors
for good cruising power. You then accept slow acceleration.

Or, you can do as no one I know of does: size the motor for full
acceleration. You then spend a lot of money for a motor that is grossly
overpowered at cruise speed.

Or, finally, you do as the vehicle people do (see, they really do know
what they're doing): you size the motor for good cruise power (or maybe
a bit more than really needed), and use a transmission to multiply the
motor's (essentially fixed) torque to a useful level for acceleration.

Then you could smoothly accelerate up to 100
RPMs, and be going 10 MPH -- all the way up to 1,000 RPMs, for 100 MPH.
I'm not sure what the actual optimal gearing would be; maybe 10,000
RPMs would be 100 MPH. However, you shouldn't need to shift (change
gears) as long as HP was the same at any RPM, and you had a finite
control over the RPM.

As I pointed out above (and in my previous post), the power is not
constant with rpm. Only the torque is. This is a serious difference.

John Perry
 
J

Jim Thompson

[email protected] wrote: [snip]

Then you could smoothly accelerate up to 100
RPMs, and be going 10 MPH -- all the way up to 1,000 RPMs, for 100 MPH.
I'm not sure what the actual optimal gearing would be; maybe 10,000
RPMs would be 100 MPH. However, you shouldn't need to shift (change
gears) as long as HP was the same at any RPM, and you had a finite
control over the RPM.

As I pointed out above (and in my previous post), the power is not
constant with rpm. Only the torque is. This is a serious difference.

John Perry

The torque is constant ??

In a DC motor the torque is maximum at zero RPM and zero at maximum
RPM's, due to back EMF.

...Jim Thompson
 
K

krw

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian said:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 15:52:02 GMT, Richard The Dreaded Libertarian

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:58:18 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:


[snip]

Scan back yourself and you'll see I specified holding a job here - not
being a crook.

This is really my commentary on the issue of 'illegal' aliens. I just
have no problem with anyone who comes here to work. Friends of mine
often hire guys right off the local street corner here when they need
some heavy work done. Far as I have seen, they are really good
workers.

Luhan

But they're sinking the health care systems in places like Yuma, AZ.


Thompson, you idiot. The problem with that isn't illegal immigrants,
it's Socialism.

Thanks,
Rich


What we need is a national health-care system at the basic level, run
by techs and nurses and providing basic care - checkups, prenatal
advice, immunizations, basic medicines but no exotics - free. It would
be cheap, especially with volume-purchased generic drugs and no
malpractice liability issues. It will never happen, of course, because
it would be a "two tier" system, and saving a lot of pain and death
wouldn't be enough to make the concept acceptable to Teddy or Hilary.

John

Notwithstanding it'd be flagrant socialism, maybe even communism, which in
case you haven't checked lately isn't exactly in the United States
charter.

Basic medical care is communist?

If the government forces one person to pay for another's, yes. If
the government takes over the health care industry and decides who
gets what care, certainly. How do you see nationalizing any
industry?
 
J

John Larkin

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian said:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 10:53:51 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 15:52:02 GMT, Richard The Dreaded Libertarian

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:58:18 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:


[snip]

Scan back yourself and you'll see I specified holding a job here - not
being a crook.

This is really my commentary on the issue of 'illegal' aliens. I just
have no problem with anyone who comes here to work. Friends of mine
often hire guys right off the local street corner here when they need
some heavy work done. Far as I have seen, they are really good
workers.

Luhan

But they're sinking the health care systems in places like Yuma, AZ.


Thompson, you idiot. The problem with that isn't illegal immigrants,
it's Socialism.

Thanks,
Rich


What we need is a national health-care system at the basic level, run
by techs and nurses and providing basic care - checkups, prenatal
advice, immunizations, basic medicines but no exotics - free. It would
be cheap, especially with volume-purchased generic drugs and no
malpractice liability issues. It will never happen, of course, because
it would be a "two tier" system, and saving a lot of pain and death
wouldn't be enough to make the concept acceptable to Teddy or Hilary.

John

Notwithstanding it'd be flagrant socialism, maybe even communism, which in
case you haven't checked lately isn't exactly in the United States
charter.

Basic medical care is communist?

If the government forces one person to pay for another's, yes. If
the government takes over the health care industry and decides who
gets what care, certainly. How do you see nationalizing any
industry?

Funding a system of free, local clinics nationalizes nothing.

And, hate to tell you, the US government already levies all sorts of
taxes onto one set of people for the benefit of others. Did you ever
attend a public school, or drive on an Interstate highway? Ever been
vaccinated?

John
 
P

Paul E. Schoen

Rich Grise said:
Well, it _is_ doable, albeit admittedly probably kinda wasteful. I once
saw a 25 HP 3-phase motor on one of those controller thinngies that
produced full torque from zero all the way up to rated RPM (which wasn't
very fast - whatever the standard 3-phase 60 Hz induction motor runs at).

It sounded kinda weird while running up the RPM - it was like the PWM was
at some harmonic of the drive frequency or something.

Cheers!
Rich

PWM VF controllers can use very sophisticated feedback techniques to
monitor current in each leg of a bridge circuit to produce maximum torque
at virtually any RPM, and they now have sensorless vector controllers that
use the back EMF to determine rotor position and velocity. You can program
the controller for different modulation frequencies to reduce audible beat
frequencies and resonances which is probably what you heard. Induction
motors can be designed with tradeoffs for low end or high end torque,
efficiency, and variable speed. At zero RPM, the excitation frequency is
just about the "slip" speed, usually about 20-50 RPM, which may be 0.5 to
several Hertz, depending on the number of poles and other factors.

A two pole motor runs at just under 3600 RPM at 60 Hz. There are 4 pole, 6
pole, 8 pole, and 12 pole motors, which run correspondingly slower but with
higher torque, so your motor might have been a 12 pole at about 600 RPM. It
can be driven up to 400 Hz, at which it will run at 4000 RPM, but the
torque will be much less because you do not have a corresponding increase
in voltage above nominal line voltage. You can probably run a 240 VAC motor
on 480 VAC at 120 Hz and get twice its rated HP.

Much higher voltages would probably overstress the insulation, and push the
limits of available IGBTs and MOSFETs used in the bridge circuits. I am
researching the practicality of winding motors for much lower voltages and
then pushing the HP by high frequency PWM. From what I have heard from
professional motor engineers, magnetic losses will limit this boost to
about 2.5 to 3x. Higher frequencies may require thinner laminations of
higher grade steel, or other changes. An induction motor is much like a
rotating transformer, and most power transformers work quite nicely up to
about 1000 Hz. It would be very nice to make a motor almost 20 times
smaller than its 60 Hz counterpart of the same HP. Of course, a 2 HP frame
could not handle the torque of a 40 HP motor, and unless it was wound with
more than the usual maximum of 12 poles, it would spin at a possibly
dangerous 10,000 RPM.

Returning to the original question of this post, the complexity is the cost
of making something efficient and practical. You could bolt wheels on a
couple of big series wound motors and control the speed by selecting 6V,
12V, 18V, etc., but it would be hard to drive safely and would not be
practical or efficient. Adding sophisticated electronics, using BLDC or
induction motors, adding regeneration, incorporating a multispeed or
infinitely variable transmission, and maintaining optimum torque on all
wheels under all conditions, is a very complicated task but results in an
efficient, practical, and elegant design.

Then there is the most serious limitation of the capabilities of batteries,
which limit range, increase cost and weight, and require regular
maintenance and replacement. Hybrid vehicles overcome some of these
limitations, but greatly increase the complexity, especially for those that
combine the output of the ICE and electric motors to drive the wheels.

Whew! 'nuff said.

Paul
 
J

John Perry

Jim said:
The torque is constant ??

In a DC motor the torque is maximum at zero RPM and zero at maximum
RPM's, due to back EMF.

Yes, a series motor in particular does this at a given voltage. For a
parallel motor it is less true. But that's a practical matter of how
commutation is done. In both cases you can get closer to the maximum
torque over a wide range of speeds by increasing the voltage as the
speed increases (exactly as you can in an AC motor by modulating the
drive voltage as speed increases).

Think about the fields between the rotor and stator of any motor. The
maximum torque occurs when the ferromagnetic material of the cores
starts to saturate. If we can choose the type of motor, we certainly
won't choose for a vehicle a mechanically commutated motor that has a
voltage/current limit determined by considerations other than maximum
torque and efficiency over a wide range of speeds.

There are good reasons why no one considers building a vehicle with
anything other than AC induction or synchronous PM motors.

jp
 
R

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian

Basic medical care is communist?

Yes, essentially. It's based on taxation, which is theft. It is wrong to
sieze the fruits of one man's labor to pay the bills of another, it's just
that simple.

I'm a lot of things, but I'm not a thief and I don't aid and abet them.

And if you don't think it's theft, then when the tax collector comes to
your door, say, "Oh, gee, I didn't vote for that tax, so I decline to pay,
thank you very much." and see how long it takes to get out the big guns.

Thanks,
Rich
 
R

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian

.
Then there is the most serious limitation of the capabilities of
batteries, which limit range, increase cost and weight, and require
regular maintenance and replacement. Hybrid vehicles overcome some of
these limitations, but greatly increase the complexity, especially for
those that combine the output of the ICE and electric motors to drive
the wheels.

Do you suppose Big Oil is sitting on fuel cells?

Thanks,
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

[email protected] wrote: [snip]

Then you could smoothly accelerate up to 100
RPMs, and be going 10 MPH -- all the way up to 1,000 RPMs, for 100 MPH.
I'm not sure what the actual optimal gearing would be; maybe 10,000
RPMs would be 100 MPH. However, you shouldn't need to shift (change
gears) as long as HP was the same at any RPM, and you had a finite
control over the RPM.

As I pointed out above (and in my previous post), the power is not
constant with rpm. Only the torque is. This is a serious difference.

John Perry

The torque is constant ??

In a DC motor the torque is maximum at zero RPM and zero at maximum
RPM's, due to back EMF.

...Jim Thompson

It sounds to me like John's still stuck on the IC explosion engine,
with its tiny little power band. I still say that with the "right" motor
and controller design, a mechanical transmission shouldn't be necessary.

Just like you say, Jim, a DC motor has its most torque at stall, just
like a steam engine. (I have a couple of design ideas for that, too, but
that's for another time. ;-) )

Cheers!
Rich
 
OK, that was the root of my misunderstanding. Some guy told me,
several years ago, that electric motors had a straight line on one of
those power lines/plots. I guess he either was completely wrong, or
possibly was talking about motors which also included a lot of fancy
equipment... in which case the plot wasn't for the motor only.

I did kind of question that statement, in general, since anything must
have some kind of limits of effeciency. I couldn't imagine a motor
spining at 1 google RPMs, effeciently moving a 2,000 pound vehicle at
10 MPH =]
 
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