Very cheap molded enclosures?

[Joerg]

Hello Frank,

Yes, but it doesn't make sense here. You say an initial low of 10-20K per
year, that suggests a product life of more than a year, and an increase
in numbers as well. So in the end you will be making perhaps 250K of these
things. So why worry about the costs for a test batch? If it flies, you know
you can have them custom made for a 10th of the price of a hammond box or
whatever. I really don't understand why you want to scrape off a few dimes
for your first run.

It's about keeping risks low. If there is a solution that's close enough
why not use that? That's what I am hoping for and where I now possibly
have one in sight. It would mean laying out the board to that enclosure
but that is no big deal. Once it flies another layout will be peanuts in
cost.

If you go all out and barge into the market the cost can be significant.
We had to do that on one device. A bit more mechanical but close. It
became a success but that company had to sink 1/2 million into it before
it turned a profit. That's not in the cards on this one.

Ask the VC what his budget is. And if he has any balls left. Like a good
scout
would ask

'tis not how it works anymore. Not since the dot-com bust. You have to
show them your numbers and then they tell you whether to stick around or
catch the next flight home. So, the numbers have to look good. Really,
really good these days.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Rich Grise]

Yes, but it doesn't make sense here. You say an initial low of 10-20K per
year, that suggests a product life of more than a year, and an increase
in numbers as well. So in the end you will be making perhaps 250K of these
things. So why worry about the costs for a test batch? If it flies, you know
you can have them custom made for a 10th of the price of a hammond box or
whatever. I really don't understand why you want to scrape off a few dimes
for your first run.

Ask the VC what his budget is. And if he has any balls left. Like a good
scout
would ask

And, I think it's not unethical to put up a website with a very prominent,
"***COMING SOON!!!***" kind of thing, with your description and prelim
specs and stuff like that. And welcome inquiries, and all that, of course.

Of course, it'll be a little hard to show any pictures, since you haven't
got a box yet. ;-P

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Frank Bemelman]

'tis not how it works anymore. Not since the dot-com bust. You have to
show them your numbers and then they tell you whether to stick around or
catch the next flight home. So, the numbers have to look good. Really,
really good these days.

I'd hoped it be their project. That your VC figured out how large the market
is, at what price it can be sold, at how many trade shows it will be
launched,
in what magazines it will be advertized, to which customers they send the
glossy brochure, which dealers will distribute the first products etc. The
money spend on those initial efforts is 10-20 times of the costs of your
first
batch of 500. It doesn't make any difference if your box costs $2 or $4 in
this stage. And if it did, any it was of any importance to you and believe
that it can fly, you'd fork out the extra 500 x 2$ yourself.

Trying to figure out the costs of every step seems pointless. If you
estimate
to need 3 day to do the layout, but turns out you need 6 days, then 6 days
it is. And vice verca. If drilling 500 boxes cost 15c per hole, 15c it is.
Drill them yourself for 7.5c if you happen to like drilling...

If the 500 boxes fly as hoped, they have to give a forecast of number of
units
to make. At that time, they hopefully know better at what price it can be
sold too. Get a price for 100,000 custom boxes. If your box costs 2$ at that
quantity, it will cost $4 at 50,000 and $8 at 25,000 -> it is just that
simple.

BTW, extruded aluminum for a casing is surprisingly cheap also. The die
does not cost very much. It can be U-shaped, with a lid (or transparent
frontpanel with silkscreen) that you slide in, and two face plates that
are screwed to both ends. You can have round corners, have it anodized in
many colors, giving it a nice professional look. And the puppy won't enjoy
chewing on it.

 

[Joerg]

Hello Frank,

I'd hoped it be their project. That your VC figured out how large the market
is, at what price it can be sold, at how many trade shows it will be
launched,
in what magazines it will be advertized, to which customers they send the
glossy brochure, which dealers will distribute the first products etc. The
money spend on those initial efforts is 10-20 times of the costs of your
first
batch of 500. It doesn't make any difference if your box costs $2 or $4 in
this stage. And if it did, any it was of any importance to you and believe
that it can fly, you'd fork out the extra 500 x 2$ yourself.

It's not the VC's project. The VC is usually just the one or the group
that needs to be convinced. Many are quite risk-averse these days (there
was an interesting IEEE Spectrum article about that this year) so the
word 'venture' is sometimes not quite so accurate anymore. Things have
greatly changed during the last four years.

The distribution and advertising path is already in place since this
will be added to another product that's already selling.

If the 500 boxes fly as hoped, they have to give a forecast of number of
units
to make. At that time, they hopefully know better at what price it can be
sold too. Get a price for 100,000 custom boxes. If your box costs 2$ at that
quantity, it will cost $4 at 50,000 and $8 at 25,000 -> it is just that
simple.

That is correct. It's just that $8 at 25k is going to be tough to sell
to the VC. But it may have to be done. They understand the concept of
loss leaders but they don't like it ;-)

BTW, extruded aluminum for a casing is surprisingly cheap also. The die
does not cost very much. It can be U-shaped, with a lid (or transparent
frontpanel with silkscreen) that you slide in, and two face plates that
are screwed to both ends. You can have round corners, have it anodized in
many colors, giving it a nice professional look. And the puppy won't enjoy
chewing on it.

I like aluminum a lot, very sturdy. Thing is, we'll need battery holders
and stuff as well. To my surprise that is not often in the standard
designs except for very small stuff. If we could run it off a couple
coin cells (we can't) I'd already be home via these guys, in case
anybody runs into a similar challenge:

http://www.polycase.com/fb40-prod.asp

Pretty cool, and the prices are good. Even the buttons are already
included (and lit!). Now I'll just have to find something like that for
a price like that but with AA batteries. It'll be just a matter of time.

Regards, Joerg

 

[[email protected]]

Hello NT,


This would make identification of the lit LED tricky from a distance and
for people with slightly impaired vision (folks won't always have their
glasses on while using it).
yup.



I did think about a larger version of a bar graph row. But then I
realized that these kind of fell from grace in the audio gear world and
became expensive. There it's mostly LCD now. I could go LCD but that is
totally cost prohibitive unless you are doing a million units a year.

Regards, Joerg

I'm unclear as to why a row of square LEDs would be more expensive. I
wasnt suggesting a ready made bargraph. The LEDs would be touching, so
you might want to sequence colours to enable easy identification with
poor eyesight. Also the differing colours would help prevent any light
bleed from one package to another.

NT

 

[[email protected]]

designs except for very small stuff. If we could run it off a couple
coin cells (we can't) I'd already be home via these guys, in case
anybody runs into a similar challenge:

http://www.polycase.com/fb40-prod.asp

Pretty cool, and the prices are good. Even the buttons are already
included (and lit!). Now I'll just have to find something like that for
a price like that but with AA batteries. It'll be just a matter of time.

Regards, Joerg

I'd talk to them, tell them how many other customers/apps want a box
like you want, and ask if they'll sell you a load. Explaining of course
that you're looking at larger quantities down the line. Who knows, they
might have been wondering about expanding their range already.


NT

 

[[email protected]]

Hello NT,


Probably will but PCB costs are quite low. It definitely must be no more
than two-layer, maybe even single layer.

There are ways to help turn those borderline 1 or 2 layer designs into
1 layer.

Usually consumer goods show the way here. There they attempt to squeeze
out every last penny. I was a bit surprised when I opened a modern TV
set and found that the main board was a rather thin phenolic. Same for
some smaller hand-held gear.

Good, its about time. I havent seen a phenolic board in a long time.
Consumer gear is almost always equipped with OTT bomb-proof thick
fibreglass boards, when its not needed. Having worked (a little) with
phenolic, its fine as long as you're not doing repeat mods. Keep
desoldering things and it falls apart.


NT

 

[Frank Bemelman]

I like aluminum a lot, very sturdy. Thing is, we'll need battery holders
and stuff as well. To my surprise that is not often in the standard
designs except for very small stuff. If we could run it off a couple
coin cells (we can't) I'd already be home via these guys, in case
anybody runs into a similar challenge:

http://www.polycase.com/fb40-prod.asp

Pretty cool, and the prices are good. Even the buttons are already
included (and lit!). Now I'll just have to find something like that for
a price like that but with AA batteries. It'll be just a matter of time.

You probably know these black plastic battery holders, with a 9V clip
on one side. You can get them in sizes for 2,3,4,6,8,10 batteries. They
are quite cheap too, maybe 5 cents, and 2 cents for the clip with the
red/black wires.

 

[Joerg]

Hello NT,

I'm unclear as to why a row of square LEDs would be more expensive. I
wasnt suggesting a ready made bargraph. The LEDs would be touching, so
you might want to sequence colours to enable easy identification with
poor eyesight. Also the differing colours would help prevent any light
bleed from one package to another.

Square ones are usually a little more in cost. But not a lot so this is
certainly an option.

For this app it would be better if they are spread apart a bit so that
the lettering next to them could be large font, for people with not so
good vision. It will be used by people with and without their reading
glasses on but the unit will be close by. A short row of adjacent LED
can be a challenge for folks that need reading glasses and I am pretty
much on the way to become one of those myself ;-)

Regards, Joerg

 

[Joerg]

Hello NT,

I'd talk to them, tell them how many other customers/apps want a box
like you want, and ask if they'll sell you a load. Explaining of course
that you're looking at larger quantities down the line. Who knows, they
might have been wondering about expanding their range already.

Certainly. I have a call into them and some others. They offer insert
molding which allows for some level of customization on their standard
cases at very moderate cost.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Joerg]

Hello Frank,

You probably know these black plastic battery holders, with a 9V clip
on one side. You can get them in sizes for 2,3,4,6,8,10 batteries. They
are quite cheap too, maybe 5 cents, and 2 cents for the clip with the
red/black wires.

Yes, that's the way we might go on the initial run. You can also buy
them with just the wires, no clip so nobody can accidentally connect a
9V battery and fry the innards.

Some enclosure mfgs offer cheap insert molding or you can glue in pins
to hold them in place, plus some foam to prevent rattling. It's not the
way to go for large volume but certainly for now.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Joerg]

Hello NT,

There are ways to help turn those borderline 1 or 2 layer designs into
1 layer.

Yep, I have used lots of 10ohm resistors in the past that had no
electrical purpose other than acting as a bridge ;-)

However, this thing will have to work next to active cell phones so I
might not get away with that here.

Good, its about time. I havent seen a phenolic board in a long time.
Consumer gear is almost always equipped with OTT bomb-proof thick
fibreglass boards, when its not needed. Having worked (a little) with
phenolic, its fine as long as you're not doing repeat mods. Keep
desoldering things and it falls apart.

Actually I have seen more phenolic than FR4 while peeking inside cheap
handheld consumer gear. Garage door openers, toys, remotes, you name it.

I was pretty content with phenolic when I grew into electronics. The
only place where it isn't the material du jour is around large tubes. I
remember refusing to repair one TV when I was a kid. The H-final tube
had turned the phenolic around its socket into charcoal and then
eventually lowered itself with a hiss and a puff. It dangled around in
there hanging on the traces (only one had ripped). But that was beyond
repair, I just would not do that.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Carl Ijames]

How about a metal battery holder that you either attach to your pc board
or to the box, like Keystone makes (see Mouser part number 534-146)? A
little pricy maybe but down to $1.29 each for 500. Hang the pcb on the
front cover and the user snaps the entire box off of the front panel to
replace the batteries.

 

[Joerg]

Hello Carl,

How about a metal battery holder that you either attach to your pc board
or to the box, like Keystone makes (see Mouser part number 534-146)? A
little pricy maybe but down to $1.29 each for 500. Hang the pcb on the
front cover and the user snaps the entire box off of the front panel to
replace the batteries.

That would be too much luxury here. I am more thinking along the lines
of Digikey's P/N BC2AAPC-ND, around 35 cents at 200 qty.

Some of the more unusual stuff to think about is polarity reversal. You
and I would never do that but consumers do. And then it's "oh, must be a
warranty case". Then again, I guess that's why we studied electrical
engineering, to deal with those things.

Regards, Joerg

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Tim,

I don't have much in terms of good leads over there. But I am working on
it. China might be another option. The ideal situation would be a
company that can take care of the enclosure and then produce the whole
unit as well.

Check out www.asiansources.com. I've always gone there whenever I need
to get stuff in large production quantities. When you find interesting
suppliers I'd recommend phoning them as some don't respond well to
email.

 

[Carl Ijames]

That would be too much luxury here. I am more thinking along the lines

of Digikey's P/N BC2AAPC-ND, around 35 cents at 200 qty.

Some of the more unusual stuff to think about is polarity reversal.
You and I would never do that but consumers do. And then it's "oh,
must be a warranty case". Then again, I guess that's why we studied
electrical engineering, to deal with those things.

That's along the lines I was thinking but I didn't look hard enough (in
2 minutes ). Yeah, I guess with only 3 V to start with you really
can't just put in a series diode like you can with a wall-wart, hmmm?

 

[Don Lancaster]

"Joerg" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht




I'd hoped it be their project. That your VC figured out how large the market
is, at what price it can be sold, at how many trade shows it will be
launched,
in what magazines it will be advertized, to which customers they send the
glossy brochure, which dealers will distribute the first products etc. The
money spend on those initial efforts is 10-20 times of the costs of your
first
batch of 500. It doesn't make any difference if your box costs $2 or $4 in
this stage. And if it did, any it was of any importance to you and believe
that it can fly, you'd fork out the extra 500 x 2$ yourself.

Trying to figure out the costs of every step seems pointless. If you
estimate
to need 3 day to do the layout, but turns out you need 6 days, then 6 days
it is. And vice verca. If drilling 500 boxes cost 15c per hole, 15c it is.
Drill them yourself for 7.5c if you happen to like drilling...

If the 500 boxes fly as hoped, they have to give a forecast of number of
units
to make. At that time, they hopefully know better at what price it can be
sold too. Get a price for 100,000 custom boxes. If your box costs 2$ at that
quantity, it will cost $4 at 50,000 and $8 at 25,000 -> it is just that
simple.

BTW, extruded aluminum for a casing is surprisingly cheap also. The die
does not cost very much. It can be U-shaped, with a lid (or transparent
frontpanel with silkscreen) that you slide in, and two face plates that
are screwed to both ends. You can have round corners, have it anodized in
many colors, giving it a nice professional look. And the puppy won't enjoy
chewing on it.

The "electronic products" and "electronic components" oversize trade
journals have wall-to-wall ads for low cost stock and semicustom
enclosures from dozens of major suppliers.

This particular problem has long since gone away.

Our approach many years ago was simply to glue fake naugehyde onto plain
old aluminum.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

 

[Joerg]

Hello [email protected],

Check out www.asiansources.com. I've always gone there whenever I need
to get stuff in large production quantities. When you find interesting
suppliers I'd recommend phoning them as some don't respond well to
email.

Thanks! One of my designs is actually being produced by a company on
Globalsources but I didn't know about the Asiansources site.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Joerg]

Hello Carl,

That's along the lines I was thinking but I didn't look hard enough (in
2 minutes ). Yeah, I guess with only 3 V to start with you really
can't just put in a series diode like you can with a wall-wart, hmmm?

No, you can't, not even a Schottky. That would require dropping the uC
clock too much to allow for a deep enough battery depletion. The usual
tricks are to split up VCC and run 'naturally protected stuff' such as
LED directly so the heavy current hitters are taken care of. The
(hopefully low current) remainder gets the resistor and diode to GND
treatment. This will deplete a battery when it's left in the wrong way
but that's a small price compared to a fried unit. As long as nothing
gets hot and the electronics can stomach the reverse that the diode
allows. Fuses are usually a no-go because that's nowadays considered a
field failure by the discerning consumer.

Regards, Joerg

 

[Joerg]

Hello Don,

The "electronic products" and "electronic components" oversize trade
journals have wall-to-wall ads for low cost stock and semicustom
enclosures from dozens of major suppliers.

This particular problem has long since gone away.

It depends. The ads look nice but upon further inquiry things can get
out of hand quickly when mods are required.

Our approach many years ago was simply to glue fake naugehyde onto plain
old aluminum.

I always wondered where the naugas are grazing ;-)

Regards, Joerg