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Resistor vs transformer

  • Thread starter Weinberger Hans
  • Start date
W

Weinberger Hans

<[email protected]>

** DA SLOW MAN " strikes again.....




** Shame it only has a single 230 volt primary:

http://au.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/searchPage2.jsp?Ntt=159-591&Nty=1&N=401&Ntk=gensearch


LOL
Should work in any case. Bill had probably this in mind - Connecting
the secondaries in series and tapping the voltage across a pair of
the secondary terminals would give me 115V , just right for the fire
alarm.
I think its the cheapest solution. The dual 115V Farnell offers cost
above 14 Euros /17 dollars.


Hans
 
W

Weinberger Hans

No. Get a transformer with a dual 115V+115V primary, connect the
primaries in seires, and hook your fire alarm across one of the
primaries. Ignore the secondary windings.

Cost goes by size, but 6VA transformers have rotten regulation. The
2002 Farnell catalogue lists a 12VA part (stock number 159-591) whcih
cost 6.58 euro and would presumably do the job, You'd have to put the
transfomer in a box to protect the outside world.

Farnell have a whole range of boxes - I'd probably go for the 525-625
(which cost another 5.65 euro back in 2002), and mount the transformer
on the lid. You might be able to get cute and mount the fire-detector
on the other side of the same lid (leaving it outside the box).

This ought to work - the transformer will run a bit warm, but it would
run warm without any load at all.

I easily/cheaply find dual 230V at the primaries in my area. I guess
it would do the job too.

Hans
 
R

Robert Baer

Weinberger said:
Hi ... I need to convert 230V to 110V. I was wondering whether a 2.4K
resistor with the right power rating would be a more cost/space
effective solution versus a transformer. My load consumes 6 Watts.
What sort of resistor should I use? Wire wound? Carbon?

The 120Watt consumption of the resistor makes me uncomfortable. Are
there any cheap SMPS or light transformers that would work better?

Hans
Cheap transformers would be better than a resistor for AC (Radio
Shack i think has a low power transformer and socket/plug adaptors).
If you need DC, a cheap SMPS would be better.
 
P

Phil Allison

"Weinberger Hans"

** BEWARE:

The same PITA Kraut Fuckwit is back.

Should work in any case.


** Huh ????????

ROTFLMAO !!!

This "Hans" Nazi sprog ARSEHOLE has gotta be the biggest FUCKWIT out !!


Bill had probably this in mind - Connecting
the secondaries in series and tapping the voltage across a pair of
the secondary terminals would give me 115V , just right for the fire
alarm.


** The secondaries are only 6 volts each - FUCKHEAD !!!!!!

I think its the cheapest solution.


** Nah.

A 9 mm Parabellum to the forehead beats it by a mile.




.......... Phil
 
J

John Fields

I easily/cheaply find dual 230V at the primaries in my area. I guess
it would do the job too.

---
Not necessarily.

Sloman's trick of using the 120V primaries in series and having your
device connected in parallel across the primaries causes the
transformer to become an autotransformer, which would work.

Using the scheme with a transformer with dual 240V secondaries
likely wouldn't work well because of the much higher winding
resistance you'll encounter causing, I would expect, _very_ poor
regulation.
 
L

lemonjuice

"Weinberger Hans"

** BEWARE:

The same PITA Kraut Fuckwit is back.




** Huh ????????

ROTFLMAO !!!

This "Hans" Nazi sprog ARSEHOLE has gotta be the biggest FUCKWIT out !!





** The secondaries are only 6 volts each - FUCKHEAD !!!!!!

And so what ? Go play with yr toys you troolllll



lemonjuice
 
J

John Fields

"John Fields"




** I have yours - you pile of criminal, fucking Texas shit.

---
Geez, Phil, as large a part of your vocabularity as 'shit' seems to
be, you must have a real fondness for it, huh?

Do you prefer it with a red or a white wine?

Or, more likely, with some of that "Foster's" swill?
 
L

lemonjuice

---
Not necessarily.

Sloman's trick of using the 120V primaries in series and having your
device connected in parallel across the primaries causes the
transformer to become an autotransformer, which would work.

Using the scheme with a transformer with dual 240V secondaries
likely wouldn't work well because of the much higher winding
resistance you'll encounter causing,
Winding resistence doesn't depend ONLY on input voltage range. You can
get dual 115V's with higher resistence then dual 230V's
I would expect, _very_ poor
regulation.
as far as I know neither does regulation ... unless you have some good
reasoning to prove that.

lemonjuice
 
J

John Fields

On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 06:09:44 -0600, John Fields

Oops...

Sloman's trick of using the 120V primaries in series and having your
device connected in parallel across the primaries causes the
/
one of the
 
A

Ancient_Hacker

I would first open up one of the units and peek at the power
transformer. There's maybe a 45% chance the transformer has 120/240V
primaries, they're just not configured that way from the factory.
Follow the line input, past any switches and fuses and trace the wires
to the power transformer. If there are two sets of two wires each
going into the transformer from the line, those are two 120V primaries
hooked up in parallel. To wire them for 220V, you just have to put
them in series instead of parallel. The phase is important-- you'll
have to snip one wire from the line, then the opposite windin'g wire
from the other line and hook those two together.
 
J

John Fields

On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 06:09:44 -0600, John Fields

Winding resistence doesn't depend ONLY on input voltage range. You can
get dual 115V's with higher resistence then dual 230V's
as far as I know neither does regulation ... unless you have some good
reasoning to prove that.

For the same core, to get the same flux density with a 240V input
would require twice the number of turns as for a 120V input.


The voltage on the secondary is related to the voltage on the
primary by:

Es Ns
---- = ---- (1)
Ep Np

Where Es and Ep are the primary and secondary voltages,
respectively, and Ns and Np are the number of turns wound on the
secondary and on the primary, respectively.

Since the transformer is tranferring power, the current in the
secondary has to be related to the current in the primary by:

Is Np
---- = ---- (2)
Ip Ns


So, for, say:


120V>--+ || +-->120V>--+
P || S |
R || E [120R]
I || C |
120V>--+ || +-->120V>--+


With 120V out of the secondary and a 120 ohm load, we'll have a load
current (in the secondary) of:

Es 120V
Is = ---- = ------ = 1 ampere
Rl 120R


Now, since the voltage across the primary and the voltage across the
primary, and:


Np Ep 120V
---- = ---- = ------,
Ns Es 120V


then there must be the same number of turns on the primary as there
are on the secondary.

Rearranging (2) to solve for the primary current will give us:


Ns
Ip = Is ---- = 1A * 1 = 1.0 ampere
Np


Now, with that behind us, let's take a look at a transformer with
dual 120V primaries and connect them in series so we can use it as
an autotransformer with a 240V input and a 120V output and see what
happens:


240V>------+
|
||P
||R
||1
|
+-->120V>--+
| |
||P |
||R [120R]
||2 |
| |
240V>------+-->120V>--+

Since we have twice the voltage across the inductance of the
primary, we'll need twice the number of turns to keep the flux
density in the core the same as it was for the 120V case, and that
criterion is satisfied with the two windings in series.

Now, just assume, for the sake of the argument, that our first
transformer:

120V>--+ || +-->120V>--+
P || S |
R || E [120R]
I || C |
120V>--+ || +-->120V>--+

Really had two 120V primaries which were connected in parallel:

120V>--+---+ ||
| P ||
| R ||
| 1 ||
120V>--|-+-+ || +-->120V>--+
| | || S |
| | || E [120R]
| | || C |
+-|-+ || +-->120V>--+
| P ||
| R ||
| 2 ||
+-+ ||

In which case each primary would be rated for 500mA and, in
parallel, the combination could carry 1 amp.

Now, though, since we're not using the secondary and taking
advantage of the current sharing we'd get with both primaries in
parallel feeding the load on the secondary, we're forcing one of the
primaries to supply the entire load, which is going to cause twice
the voltage drop across it than would occur with with the windings
in parallel. That, in and of itself, will cause the regulation to
be poorer than it would be with a conventional transformer with the
same amount of iron in the core.

Finally, consider another autotransformer wound on the same core,
but with two _240V_ primaries wired in series with 240V across the
ends. 120V will still appear from the center tap to either end, but
because the primaries were wound with smaller diameter (higher
resistance) wire, and exhibit a higher resistance than the other
autotransformer, the drop across the 240V primary with the 120 ohm
load connected across it will be even greater than across the other
autotransformer, resulting in even poorer regulation.
 
L

lemonjuice

Haven't thoroughly examined your analysis as I got a tight work
schedule here ... but I'll be back to you tomorrow morning.
In the meantime ... the secondary is left unconnected in the
application so flux induced there, currents flowing there have nothing
to do with the problem.
Then you are assuming wire radius and type is constant which isn't
necessarily true for different transformer types and that is going to
vary all the impedances, flux you have calculated.
You also assume A 240V has to have twice the windings of the 120V and
that depends on what the transformer is designed to do. It doesn't
always have to be like that, especially if you are considering
different transformer types.

Even across the same types you could use a 240V dual to whatever
voltage you want with a 120V to a lower voltage and you'd have the same
resistence of the primaries.

I see you mentioning regulation. It only makes sense to talk about that
if you have an output voltage . In this case our secondary is left
unconnected.


Regards

lemonjuice
 
J

John Fields

Haven't thoroughly examined your analysis as I got a tight work
schedule here ... but I'll be back to you tomorrow morning.

---
I see from the rest of your post that you don't understand what's
being discussed, so your "analysis" will hardly be of any
consequence.

Save yourself some grief and concentrate on your work, it'll
probably serve you better in the long run.
---
In the meantime ... the secondary is left unconnected in the
application so flux induced there, currents flowing there have nothing
to do with the problem.

---
had you taken a little more time to read my post, instead of firing
back some half-baked, irrelevant response, you would have seen
(well, maybe...) that that eventuality had already been covered.
---
Then you are assuming wire radius and type is constant which isn't
necessarily true for different transformer types and that is going to
vary all the impedances, flux you have calculated.

---
Again, had you read the article with a little more care you might
have found that the discussion was based on using Sloman's example
of a transformer with a couple of 120V primaries being used as an
autotransformer, and that my examples were all based on using that
transformer's core in order to keep apples equal to apples.
---
You also assume A 240V has to have twice the windings of the 120V and
that depends on what the transformer is designed to do. It doesn't
always have to be like that, especially if you are considering
different transformer types.

---
Read my post again. And again, and again, until it makes sense to
you, if you can, then come back with any question you may have.
---
Even across the same types you could use a 240V dual to whatever
voltage you want with a 120V to a lower voltage and you'd have the same
resistence of the primaries.

---
Flux density, voltage, and primary turns is what we're talking
about, dear boy.

Besides, the resistance of identical primary windings in parallel is
going to be half that of the same primaries in series, you know.
---
I see you mentioning regulation. It only makes sense to talk about that
if you have an output voltage . In this case our secondary is left
unconnected.

---
I suppose, then, that the voltage being fed into the load (which is
taken from one of the autotransformers' primaries) doesn't really
qualify as an output because there's no secondary?

Go back and read the article again before you embarrass yourself
further.
 
L

lemonjuice

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
Cut that out. Its very funny.

Another error in your post is you don't seem to realize that its NOT
RESISTANCE that is cutting down the voltage BUT inductance. Write an
equation for that .

Another error is the resistance depends also on the geometry of the
transformer.

Another error is the OP was talking about a different type of
transformer from Slomans .

etc ... want another error listing so we can all laugh.

lemonjuice
 
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