Re: Measuring output impedance in LTSpice

[Andrew Holme]

I'm wondering what method folks here use to measure amplifier output
impedance in LTSpice? One method I recall reading about is, IIRC, hanging
a resistor off the output and stepping it, looking for the closed loop
gain*input voltage*output voltage divider halfway point, but that seems
kind of kludgey. Any other methods? Thanks.

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[Joerg]

As Phil Hobbs pointed out, if you ATTACH your LTspice .asc, it can be
launched directly from most readers.

When you put the .asc into the body of the message you have to copy
and paste to create a file, then launch LTspice, slo-o-o-o-ow :-(

Minor problem: The vast majority of participants in NGs no longer has
access to news servers that support binaries. Thus no attachments. Slow?
C'mon, a bit spoiled? Remember the days when one had to wait for the
arrival of the 11:00am flight and the tapes to be unloaded?

Bitrex: The way you describe it is how it's usually done, almost.
Sometimes a load or current is modulated to see how things are at higher
frequencies. It is also customary to check switch-mode converters for
load change behavior via pulsed loads.

[...]

 

[Joerg]

Thank you, that's much clearer. Suck current, measure voltage. I kept
thinking about applying a voltage and measuring current, the way one
might do it in circuit analysis, but I don't think that will work
properly with SPICE.

It does work if you apply the voltage via a resistor. IOW try to
"wiggle" the output.

 

[Joerg]

Are text attachments forbidden?

Yup. Any and all attachments. I've asked the guys at my (paid) server if
they couldn't open 100k for attachments since they allow max 100k in the
message body. The answer was a resounding "no way". Wouldn't make much
sense anyhow, it doesn't do any good if only 1% of the others can read it.

Certainly ;-)


Ha! I used to walk mailing tubes to the AA counter and the pilot
would carry it to San Jose ;-)

In Europe we had a really nice system, not sure if still available: We
had the schedules of all those Intercity fast trains hanging on an
office wall. If something urgent needed to get to Munich we'd sprint to
the station, hand it over along with some cash, goes onto train. Called
the guy in Munich to be at their station at around 4:00pm. Even with air
freight today that's impossible unless you charter a plane.

Back when I could drive up to the curb, leave my car and walk to the
counter maybe 30' away ;-)

TSA has made things so much better :-(

Nowadays many biz folks actually drive if the destination is within 300
miles. Air travel has lost the advantage over short hauls because of the
security wait.

[...]

 

[Joerg]

I'm wondering what method folks here use to measure amplifier output
impedance in LTSpice? One method I recall reading about is, IIRC,
hanging
a resistor off the output and stepping it, looking for the closed loop
gain*input voltage*output voltage divider halfway point, but that
seems
kind of kludgey. Any other methods? Thanks.

As Phil Hobbs pointed out, if you ATTACH your LTspice .asc, it can be
launched directly from most readers.

When you put the .asc into the body of the message you have to copy
and paste to create a file, then launch LTspice, slo-o-o-o-ow :-(

Minor problem: The vast majority of participants in NGs no longer has
access to news servers that support binaries. Thus no attachments. Slow?
C'mon, a bit spoiled? Remember the days when one had to wait for the
arrival of the 11:00am flight and the tapes to be unloaded?

Bitrex: The way you describe it is how it's usually done, almost.
Sometimes a load or current is modulated to see how things are at higher
frequencies. It is also customary to check switch-mode converters for
load change behavior via pulsed loads.

[...]

No binaries, but ASCII attachments seem to work fine, though. For
instance, here's a class-B driver for a Peltier cooler.

Well, shazam! It sure worked. Beats me why because the folks at the news
server said it wouldn't. And in the past it hadn't. Probably the Hobbs
coefficient was too low on all the others

 

[Jon Kirwan]

No binaries, but ASCII attachments seem to work fine, though. For
instance, here's a class-B driver for a Peltier cooler.

And here it is autogenerated to ascii:

: -9V
: |
: | -7V
: | |
: --- ---
: - V2 - V1
: --- -9 --- -7
: - -
: | |
: | |
: gnd gnd
:
: R9
: ,--------------------/\/\-,---,
: R13 | 100k | |
: ,-----------/\/\--, | | |
: | 300k | ,--------+-------, | |
: --- | | | | | R10 | |
: - V5 | | | gnd ,-------/\/\-' |
: --- -5 R12 | | | V| | 100k || |
: - ,-/\/\--+ | | o| | ,-----||-|
: | | 150k | |/c | u| c\| | || |
: | | | ,-, ,-----| | ZTX104t| |---+ ,-+------------,
: gnd gnd | | | | |>e | -| e<| | | | | \
: | |+nd | | | | | | gn+| | / R8
: | |\ U1 | | | | | | U2 /| | \ 10k
: ,+--|-\ | R2 | | R1Vout+R4 | | R3 | /-|--' /
: .param RL=5 Vin R6 | | >+-+/\/\---+-++/\/\-+-/\/\+-+-/\/\+--< | |
: .step param RL 1 20 2 +-/\/\----+------|+/ | |75 | |5 | {RL} | 75 | \+|-----------+
: | 100k | | |/ L| | | | | | LT| \| |
: | | | |- | | | | | | | -| \
: --- | | | ---|C1 |<e Q| | Q4 e>| | | / R7
: - V3 \ | | ---'-----| D| |D45H11 |---' | \ 20k
: --- -2.5 / R| | | |\c | | c/| | /
: - \ 1| | | | | | -9V | | |
: | / | '------------+----------------+----------' -7V
: | | | | R11 | |
: | | '-------+-----/\/\---' |
: gnd | 100k |
: '-----------------------------'
: .dc V3 -5 0 .01

Not entirely pretty, but the ASCII generator does what it can
understand to do.

Jon

 

[Joerg]

So you subscribe to a weenie server ? Giganews works just ducky
with Hobb's recent test post to s.e.d

Your weenie server support people probably don't even know what you
are talking about

No, it provided the attachment. I know for sure that a year ago it
didn't because we tried it. Question is, how many other here in this
exquisite club of soldering iron wielders are able to read the attachment?

[...]

Back when I could drive up to the curb, leave my car and walk to the
counter maybe 30' away ;-)

TSA has made things so much better :-(

Nowadays many biz folks actually drive if the destination is within 300
miles. Air travel has lost the advantage over short hauls because of the
security wait.

[...]

I do that. My current driving range to the west is Californica from
Mexico to Santa Barbara, east to Albuquerque and San Antonio / Austin
/ Dallas.

Maybe further if the stay is a week or longer.

I only drive such distances when there is no other reasonable
connection. Many destinations north of here can be a problem, where you
have no real choice other than taking the Interstate.

 

[Joerg]

Huh? Are you in there? LTspice is FREE. Who would it be that can't
read it?

In the old days, about a year ago, such attachments were visible as such
but no contents were transmitted. Now LTSpice has a minor problem
running a simulation off of hot air. Although Mike Engelhardt could take
an internship with a few politician's offices, they'll show him how
that's done

[...]

Anything other than snow and rain and uber-liberals north of you ?

Once you get to about 300 miles from here it is actually very pretty
country. Like this:

http://www.shastalake.com/images/shasta-lake-6-6-2006.jpg

 

[Joerg]

The orginal wasn't that pretty either.

Flux splatters on there, like Jan's?

 

[Grant]

Are text attachments forbidden?

Inline text attachment unencoded is still a copy/paste exercise, hardly
painful, from my PoV as I sometimes do that from windows newsreader to
a unix file.

Certainly ;-)

Nah...

It's the people the retype the things and make copy mistakes! )

Grant.

C'mon, a bit spoiled? Remember the days when one had to wait for the
arrival of the 11:00am flight and the tapes to be unloaded?

Ha! I used to walk mailing tubes to the AA counter and the pilot
would carry it to San Jose ;-)

Back when I could drive up to the curb, leave my car and walk to the
counter maybe 30' away ;-)

TSA has made things so much better :-(

Bitrex: The way you describe it is how it's usually done, almost.
Sometimes a load or current is modulated to see how things are at higher
frequencies. It is also customary to check switch-mode converters for
load change behavior via pulsed loads.

[...]

...Jim Thompson

 

[Joerg]

Jim Thompson wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm wondering what method folks here use to measure amplifier output
impedance in LTSpice? One method I recall reading about is, IIRC, hanging
a resistor off the output and stepping it, looking for the closed loop
gain*input voltage*output voltage divider halfway point, but that seems
kind of kludgey. Any other methods? Thanks.
As Phil Hobbs pointed out, if you ATTACH your LTspice .asc, it can be
launched directly from most readers.

When you put the .asc into the body of the message you have to copy
and paste to create a file, then launch LTspice, slo-o-o-o-ow :-(

Minor problem: The vast majority of participants in NGs no longer has
access to news servers that support binaries. Thus no attachments.
Are text attachments forbidden?

Yup. Any and all attachments. I've asked the guys at my (paid) server if
they couldn't open 100k for attachments since they allow max 100k in the
message body. The answer was a resounding "no way". Wouldn't make much
sense anyhow, it doesn't do any good if only 1% of the others can read it.
So you subscribe to a weenie server ? Giganews works just ducky
with Hobb's recent test post to s.e.d

Your weenie server support people probably don't even know what you
are talking about

No, it provided the attachment. I know for sure that a year ago it
didn't because we tried it. Question is, how many other here in this
exquisite club of soldering iron wielders are able to read the attachment?
Huh? Are you in there? LTspice is FREE. Who would it be that can't
read it?

In the old days, about a year ago, such attachments were visible as such
but no contents were transmitted. Now LTSpice has a minor problem
running a simulation off of hot air. Although Mike Engelhardt could take
an internship with a few politician's offices, they'll show him how
that's done

[...]

Joerg, You need to temper your comments with the realization that not
all of us are as cheapskate as you... who is your provider/what is
your reader ?

Provider is news.individual.de and reader is Thunderbird. As I said, now
it works. To my surprise.

Visible from here (~40 miles east, I was over there on Wednesday
judging a Junior High School Science Fair)...

http://www.arizona-leisure.com/superstition-mountain.html

With a little bit of snow topping right now.

I like the Superstition Mountains. A friend showed us Indian ruins in
there. But you have to hike, it's well past where 4WD can go or is
allowed to go. Might be a good thing, so that this part of history isn't
being eroded by too many visitors.

 

[Grant]

Jim Thompson wrote:
I'm wondering what method folks here use to measure amplifier output
impedance in LTSpice? One method I recall reading about is, IIRC, hanging
a resistor off the output and stepping it, looking for the closed loop
gain*input voltage*output voltage divider halfway point, but that seems
kind of kludgey. Any other methods? Thanks.

As Phil Hobbs pointed out, if you ATTACH your LTspice .asc, it can be
launched directly from most readers.

When you put the .asc into the body of the message you have to copy
and paste to create a file, then launch LTspice, slo-o-o-o-ow :-(


Minor problem: The vast majority of participants in NGs no longer has
access to news servers that support binaries. Thus no attachments. Slow?
C'mon, a bit spoiled? Remember the days when one had to wait for the
arrival of the 11:00am flight and the tapes to be unloaded?

Bitrex: The way you describe it is how it's usually done, almost.
Sometimes a load or current is modulated to see how things are at higher
frequencies. It is also customary to check switch-mode converters for
load change behavior via pulsed loads.

[...]

No binaries, but ASCII attachments seem to work fine, though. For
instance, here's a class-B driver for a Peltier cooler.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Yup! Thanks for discovering that, Phil!

Now, all we need to do is train the naysayers ;-)

Can that be done?

And where's the command gone for adding a plaintext (ascii) attachment
in Agent? Used to be easy to find, 'cos that's how I sent kernel patches.

Grant.

 

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 15:35:39 -0400, Phil Hobbs
[snip]

No binaries, but ASCII attachments seem to work fine, though. For
instance, here's a class-B driver for a Peltier cooler.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Yup! Thanks for discovering that, Phil!

Now, all we need to do is train the naysayers ;-)

Can that be done?

And where's the command gone for adding a plaintext (ascii) attachment
in Agent? Used to be easy to find, 'cos that's how I sent kernel patches.

Grant.

...Jim Thompson

There's an "Attachments" button (just below "Persona") in the compose
reply window.

You can also drag the file and drop it on the reply window. It'll either add
it as an attachment or as inline text.

 

[Grant]

On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 15:35:39 -0400, Phil Hobbs
[snip]

No binaries, but ASCII attachments seem to work fine, though. For
instance, here's a class-B driver for a Peltier cooler.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Yup! Thanks for discovering that, Phil!

Now, all we need to do is train the naysayers ;-)

Can that be done?

And where's the command gone for adding a plaintext (ascii) attachment
in Agent? Used to be easy to find, 'cos that's how I sent kernel patches.

Grant.

...Jim Thompson

There's an "Attachments" button (just below "Persona") in the compose
reply window.

Thanks.

Hmm, what I should do is start over with Agent without my decade old
customised toolbars... Anyway, I found a dialog box that seems to give
access to attachment properties. I forget when I don't use stuff for
a few years.

Grant.

 

[Grant]

On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 15:35:39 -0400, Phil Hobbs
[snip]

No binaries, but ASCII attachments seem to work fine, though. For
instance, here's a class-B driver for a Peltier cooler.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Yup! Thanks for discovering that, Phil!

Now, all we need to do is train the naysayers ;-)

Can that be done?

And where's the command gone for adding a plaintext (ascii) attachment
in Agent? Used to be easy to find, 'cos that's how I sent kernel patches.

Grant.

...Jim Thompson

There's an "Attachments" button (just below "Persona") in the compose
reply window.

You can also drag the file and drop it on the reply window. It'll either add
it as an attachment or as inline text.

One place I post to demands whitespace not be corrupted, <tab> converted to
spaces a no no. I usually copy/paste stuff from terminal into a post, unless
I have to follow that whitespace issue, elsewhere.

I once posted a very small binary to usenet (aols) and it went through, no
complaints, but anything goes up in the alt... area.

Grant.

 

[Joerg]

Any kid over 5 years old here has its own website with at least 1 GB space,
and posts his stuff there.

Same here. But it's a bit cumbersome. First you must store the file on
your HD, then FTP it over to your web site, then type the whole path
into the URL of your web browser, then copy the URL and paste into your
post.

We just beam it there, oooh sorry I see you are still in 2011.

Yesterday I saw that faint twinkle up there in the sky, way out there. I
though that must be you, probably blew a circuit breaker in the hobby
room on your spaceship

 

[Joerg]

Try posting one before you start the party. Some servers will carry
messages with attachments, but not let you post them.

Ok, here is that test, a laser pump diode pulser. Nothing confidential,
it was my contribution to a discussion in a European NG.



Version 4
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WIRE -944 -144 -944 -176
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TEXT 232 -200 Left 0 ;V(n002)
TEXT -392 -112 Left 0 ;V(n004)

 

[Joerg]

Ok, here is that test, a laser pump diode pulser. Nothing confidential,
it was my contribution to a discussion in a European NG.

Well, what can I say, it worked. There must have been a change of mind
among the administrators since the time I asked. Because back then it
was a firm no from their side.

There's also a guy (Falk Willberg) on the German NG who set up a server
that supports binaries. But one must subscribe to that so right now we
are an "NG of two" over there, Falk and me.

--
Gruesse, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

 

[Joerg]

Well, what can I say, it worked.

[snip]

Nope. Your .asc file appeared in the body, not properly attached.

You would be better off if you used tools that adhere to the
standards.

Or could it be your tools that don't behave?

On Thunderbird it does show as inline plus as an attached file. To make
sure, I then downloaded it into a temp directory (not the one from where
I attached it) and opened it in LTSpice. Woiks. Then I did same with the
netbook which never had that file. Woiks.

 

[Joerg]

Joerg wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Joerg wrote:
Well, shazam! It sure worked. Beats me why because the folks at the news
server said it wouldn't. And in the past it hadn't. Probably the Hobbs
coefficient was too low on all the others
Try posting one before you start the party. Some servers will carry
messages with attachments, but not let you post them.

Ok, here is that test, a laser pump diode pulser. Nothing confidential,
it was my contribution to a discussion in a European NG.

Well, what can I say, it worked.
[snip]

Nope. Your .asc file appeared in the body, not properly attached.

You would be better off if you used tools that adhere to the
standards.

Or could it be your tools that don't behave?

On Thunderbird it does show as inline plus as an attached file. To make
sure, I then downloaded it into a temp directory (not the one from where
I attached it) and opened it in LTSpice. Woiks. Then I did same with the
netbook which never had that file. Woiks.

Did you try launching from the message?

I think Agent IS the standard.

Obviously not a very good one. Klaus Butzmann in the German NG read my
attachment just fine, as a file.

Oh, well. Arguing with you is like arguing with a stump. You have
all the trouble, yet claim you're always right. You should join
Larkin's organization... you'd fit right in

One guy did, he just said so. It's midnight over there so there won't be
many answering in the next few hours.