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Old-fart electronics quiz

I

Ian Bell

Paul said:
Interesting. I can't say I've heard of either. Do they have web sites
where one might get some idea of what stock they carry?

I am pretty sure Bull does. google search should find it.

Ian
 
P

Precious Pup

John said:
I thing the word used was "stupid."

Originally I simply stated it as a question, and don't care one way or the other
about reflex amps. Then Woodgate got uptight and said how "It's not stupid just
because it's an old technique." I never wrote a _general_ statement that
something would be "stupid" just because it was old. Flatly misrepresenting
what I wrote put me in a foul mood at the outset. (I wouldn't bother having
Radiotron and other old books if I thought there might not be "something
somewhere" in them that might be applied even today.) Rather than contentious
countering with my "poor technique" statement, I probably should have simply
called him on the misrepresentation. That is my fault. Then he "appealed to
his age as authority" without actually arguing against the cited authority or my
interpretation of it. He countered with no meaningful information.

From what I can tell, the reflex really isn't/wasn't too hot of an idea. One
would need to explain its conspicuous absence in the large US and GB markets,
not just in this time, but in its own time. One would need to explain its
conspicuous absence in much of the pertinant literature at the time -- why was
it apparently disregarded by many of the authorities at that time. I too think
it was neat to try something different, but as best I can see, the idea was just
not viable in a distinguishing manner, and no one has really given really good
technical or marketing reasons why that is not so.

It was "good enough," all things considered, to have some popularity in
Australia apparently. If that satisfies everyone that is was not "poor
technique," then fine. As best I can tell so far, it was not a widespread or
long-lived technique. So yes, I make certain assumptions based on that.
Langford-Smith was Australian and was an authority -- that is why the citation
was made. A citation is exactly an appeal to authority. The citation is made
so the skeptic can expressly know what they are arguing against, or to point out
how the source has been misinterpreted. The only source I happen to have that
even mentions it is Radiotron, but I have other popular radio engineering texts
of the era, for example Terman, Seely, Rider, and Ref Data for Radio Eng (ITT).

So again, I don't really care one way or another about reflex amp. If it is
useful to someone, then fine. You ideas about its potential for modern use are
worth about what other ideas are worth: about as much as individual grains of
sand on a beach. It means nothing until the hard work of using the idea in a
viable commercial product is done. That is the reflex acid test.

Absolutely! I know how to do that.

Well good then. For my lesson, next time I'll call the misrepresentation
immediately instead of going down the contention path.
If you want to tell tales about your glory days, better hurry up and
do something glorious.

It isn't in my book of goals to do something unforgettable in electronics, but
there is always myth and lore when the flat truth is not enough.
100 years from now, you and I will be equally dead.

True enough, and don't forget equally forgotten.


Too much acid reflux,
Pup
 
I

Ian Bell

Ross said:
And for those who remember Teletypes there was
The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.....

I remember using that as a test for a daisy wheel printer in the 80's.

Ian
 
J

John Woodgate

(in said:
And so easy to remember too ;-)
Depend whether you've got that sort of memory or not. I could explain
the uncommon words, but that would be boring. They are real words.
 
J

John Larkin

From what I can tell, the reflex really isn't/wasn't too hot of an idea. One
would need to explain its conspicuous absence in the large US and GB markets,
not just in this time, but in its own time. One would need to explain its
conspicuous absence in much of the pertinant literature at the time -- why was
it apparently disregarded by many of the authorities at that time. I too think
it was neat to try something different, but as best I can see, the idea was just
not viable in a distinguishing manner, and no one has really given really good
technical or marketing reasons why that is not so.

The trend lately is for active parts (ie, gain) to be dirt cheap, so
the duplexing into/out of a reflex amp is far more trouble than it's
worth. Still, it is/was a neat idea.

There were later invocations of reflex-like devices. Both tunnel
diodes and pumped parametric amplifiers were single-port gain
elements, and people did tricks like making a TD be an oscillator,
mixer, RF amp, and IF amp all at once. Paramps similarly could amplify
RF, mix, and amplify IF all at once. Yes, they are obsolete too.

The NIF laser amplifies 30-foot long slugs of light. They gate them
into the pumped slab section of the laser, bounce them through the
amps twice - total of four boosts - then switch the results into the
triplers and the target chamber. That's actually passing the *same*
signal through a string of amps four times, twice in each direction!

I just think all this stuff is neat, and I'm impressed by how many
clever things were thought of, say, 80 years ago. That makes me an OF,
I guess. Kids I meet seem to think that civilization began the day
Java was invented.

John
 
M

Max Hauser

John Larkin said:
There were later invocations of reflex-like devices. Both tunnel
diodes and pumped parametric amplifiers were single-port gain elements,

This reminds me of something I rarely think about and more rarely mention in
polite company. One of several fads and fashions of unclear merit in the
published EE literature in my time was the potpourri of "negative
resistance" circuits appearing in the 1970s (in the IEE's _Electronics
Letters_ and elsewhere). The rationalization was that these circuits could
go across circuits like telephone lines to supplant losses and introduce
gain (perfectly reasonable and viable principle) but the circuits people
published in the "thread" were cobbled out of exotic discrete components and
had a nonrobust look (e.g., very dependent on device characteristics or
tweaking and of doubtful manufacturability). An even more problematic fad
was the weird current sources that relied on, for example, the room
temperature being exact or they would self-destruct. Utility evidently was
not the motivation for publishing these papers. There were other fads of
this kind, they would burn briefly and then fade. In 1980 I read through
the analog-IC-related literature in depth up to that date (everything in
English, parts in other languages and translation). Some of the revelations
of ideas people devoted time and pages to were horrible, terrible.
(Fortunately here on the enlightened Usenet, there's none of that!)
and people did tricks like making a TD be an oscillator,
mixer, RF amp, and IF amp all at once.

Very cool!
Kids I meet seem to think that civilization began the day
Java was invented.

Oh it's just human nature. History started when I did; information is
important according to whether I've heard of it; etc. etc. etc.
 
N

N. Thornton

Precious Pup said:
John Larkin wrote:
Originally I simply stated it as a question, and don't care one way or the other
about reflex amps. Then Woodgate got uptight and said how "It's not stupid just
because it's an old technique." I never wrote a _general_ statement that
something would be "stupid" just because it was old. Flatly misrepresenting
what I wrote put me in a foul mood at the outset. (I wouldn't bother having
Radiotron and other old books if I thought there might not be "something
somewhere" in them that might be applied even today.) Rather than contentious
countering with my "poor technique" statement, I probably should have simply
called him on the misrepresentation. That is my fault. Then he "appealed to
his age as authority" without actually arguing against the cited authority or my
interpretation of it. He countered with no meaningful information.

anyone can read the thread, and here we normally do.

From what I can tell, the reflex really isn't/wasn't too hot of an idea. One
would need to explain its conspicuous absence in the large US and GB markets,
not just in this time, but in its own time. One would need to explain its
conspicuous absence in much of the pertinant literature at the time -- why was
it apparently disregarded by many of the authorities at that time. I too think
it was neat to try something different, but as best I can see, the idea was just
not viable in a distinguishing manner, and no one has really given really good
technical or marketing reasons why that is not so.

Valves were not perfectly linear, thus change in bias would result in
change in gain. This introduces a clash between reflex and reaction:
if you employ them both together your reaction gain is ever changing,
altered by the audio component of the signal. Reflex came before
reaction IIRC, and reaction was clearly the superior technique,
producing far more gain than any other method at the time. Reaction
took over (regeneration for 'mericans).

It was "good enough," all things considered, to have some popularity in
Australia apparently. If that satisfies everyone that is was not "poor
technique," then fine. As best I can tell so far, it was not a widespread or
long-lived technique.

The same is true of the inductor dynamic speaker, but it was still a
good thing. It too was perchance quickly eclipsed by an even better
thing.
So yes, I make certain assumptions based on that.
but
there is always myth and lore when the flat truth is not enough.


Regards, NT
 
J

John Larkin

This reminds me of something I rarely think about and more rarely mention in
polite company. One of several fads and fashions of unclear merit in the
published EE literature in my time was the potpourri of "negative
resistance" circuits appearing in the 1970s (in the IEE's _Electronics
Letters_ and elsewhere).

I didn't miss out on that fad! I did a college project where I built a
2-terminal, -1K resistor (709 opamp, two 9-volt batteries in a little
plastic box) and did tricks with it. Ohms law cases, exponential RC
circuits, LC oscillators, stuff like that. It was fun, but my profs
were sort of confused by the concept.

I do miss tunnel diodes, though. Maybe I'll build a stereo amp using
just ceramic capacitors as parametric gain elements.

John
 
J

John Larkin


Cool. Back diodes are still manufactured, but I don't think TDs are.
GPD inherited the old GE product line, but discontinued them some
years ago. The last TD I bought from them, to repair an old HP TDR
system, cost about $80.

Avtech has some neat historical and technical pages, including the
Unusual Diode FAQs.

John
 
M

Mark Fergerson

Jim said:
I used to have Varilux lenses, but the eyes were getting so bad that I
had to return to tri-focals.

Fifteen years ago I opted for RK, not realizing that weakens the eye
and you gradually go far-sighted.

WHAT??? Yet another thing They Don't Mention.

Do you know if that also applies to the newer variants of
RK (LASIK and so on)?

Mark L. Fergerson
 
J

Jim Thompson

WHAT??? Yet another thing They Don't Mention.

Do you know if that also applies to the newer variants of
RK (LASIK and so on)?

Mark L. Fergerson

I don't know for sure, but I think LASIK works with scar tissue
pulling, whereas RK made radial cuts. So LASIK might be better. But
I'd ask before I plunged.

...Jim Thompson
 
J

Jan Panteltje

I remember using that as a test for a daisy wheel printer in the 80's.

Ian
Still use it all the time to test subtitles (for DVD etc).
Jan
 
I

Ian Bell

John said:
Depend whether you've got that sort of memory or not. I could explain
the uncommon words, but that would be boring. They are real words.

Is qoph the only word where q is not followed by a u?

Ian
 
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