E
Eeyore
Don said:Well, you might start with these 210,000 citations:
http://www.google.com/search?q=inkj...ient=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official
You mean all those NONSENSE citations ?
Graham
Don said:Well, you might start with these 210,000 citations:
http://www.google.com/search?q=inkj...ient=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official
Anthony said:Don, despite your obsession with equating everything with gasoline,
PV cells are not gasoline in disguise. This 'net energy' nonsense of
trying to load new PV panels with all the energy 'costs' of the entire
civilization going back to the dawn of time is also completely nutters.
That nonsense aside, who cares what the utilities do? If it's cheap
enough then people will use it regardless of what the utilities are
doing.
An average home (often described as using 24kWh/day) could provide
for all it's electrical needs with a grid-tied system of only around
7kW in most temperate areas of the world. Such a system might only
cost $10K (USD) with $1/Watt panels. Over the 25 year warrantied
life of such a system these panels would produce over 220,000 kWh
at a cost of 4.5 cents/kWh.
Don said:If a power utility cannot make pv deliver net energy when properly full
burden accounted, there is no way in hell an individual can.
Steve said:They are merely people that can use a freaking calculator. Try it
yourself...a simple 4-banger will suffice.
Eeyore said:Alex wrote:
Actual capacity is more likely to be ~ 16%. I know of nowhere that insolation is
the equivalent of 8 mid-day hours of sunshine. The Sahara maybe ?
A more realistic number would be 4 hours x 354 days (averaged insolation in very
sunny areas of the USA or Europe) and as little as 3 hours further north. See
any insolation map.
So, 1100 - 1460 kWh
Value @ 10c/kWh = $110 at the low end. So an 11% return on your $1000 invested
except it's not just $1000, you have to add installation costs and the cost of
an inverter to use the electricity. That might bring it down to say a 5% return
which is OK I guess.
Graham
Eeyore said:Actual capacity is more likely to be ~ 16%. I know of nowhere that insolation is
the equivalent of 8 mid-day hours of sunshine. The Sahara maybe ?
A more realistic number would be 4 hours x 354 days (averaged insolation in very
sunny areas of the USA or Europe) and as little as 3 hours further north. See
any insolation map.
Jim said:What do you think is the magic number for DIY home systems?
Jim Wilkins
Economies of scale still apply.Eeyore said:Don Lancaster wrote:
I fail to see the logic in that statement. The individual has no
infrastructure to maintain, employees to pay and shareholders to pay
dividends to..
Graham
Iffn the right one don't git ya, the left one will.Eeyore said:Don Lancaster wrote:
You mean all those NONSENSE citations ?
Graham
Don said:At present, the cost of the synchronous inverter alone in many home pv
installations is often enough to GUARANTEE its consumption of more than
the value of all electricity sent through it.
Erdemal said:Maps showing insolation in kWh/m².year are a available.
http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/countries/countries-europe.htm
Steve said:They are merely people that can use a freaking calculator. Try it
yourself...a simple 4-banger will suffice.
Don said:Economies of scale still apply.
Especially synchronous inversion, metering, and storage integration.
Alex said:Eeyore wrote:
Is electricity in the southern US only 10c / KWhr? it's about 10p
here.
The likes of Eeyore and Don Lancaster are each infowar members of
their infomercial spewing big-government, big-energy and of their
faith-based puppeteers doing all they possibly can in order to
plunder, pillage and rape mother Earth for all she's worth, and then
some.
BradGuth said:Unlike yourself, I'll pretty much go along with the regular laws of
physics and whatever the best available science has to offer.
Anthony said:I would like to see what numbers you used to come to that conclusion.
Bob said:"Eeyore" wrote
So is Gasoline. In the case of gasoline it's because of the tax structure
you people "enjoy." Lucky you!
It it the same with electricity?
Bob said:So, where is the "exergy" in this one? It seems to me that you are making a
perverse argument FOR Mook's solar hydrogen or something similar. At least
to the extent the stuff is used as fuel for central station generation and
doesn't add to the infrastructure require by the end user.
Anthony said:There is no upper price for anything. Just because something CAN be
purchased at a high price does not mean you HAVE to purchase it at
that price.
I wish you would have included the size, model or other reference to
your $2500 home syncronous inverter so that I could see if this was a
reasonable price.
I can try to figure backwards from your 4kWh/day. To produce that with
a typical United States figure of 4.5 'sun-hours' (kWh/m^2/day) would
require about 1.2kW of PV panels and maybe a 1kW+ inverter.
A Sunnyboy SWR 1800U Grid Tie Inverter rated for 2kW of PV panels can
be purchased for $1695 and can be expected to produce about 7kWh/day
which, at 14 cents/kWh, is worth 98 cents/day. With a two axis tracker
adding another 40% it would be $1.37 a day.
http://store.solar-electric.com/suboyswr18gr.html
Let's say that with shipping, taxes and installation the total comes
out to $2,000. It looks like HELOC are available at 7.25%. At 10 years
the payments come out to $23.48/month or 77 cents a day.
You would be coming out ahead by anywhere from 21 to 60 cents/day even
if your utility doesn't double their rates within those 10 years.
The longer you run it, the better the return on your investment. If the
device lasts longer than 10 years (quite possible) then it gets even
better.
Anthony