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J

Joe Pfeiffer

jmfbahciv said:
Joe said:
No, the part he's right about is that it really is possible to
distribute a lot of the functionality of a conventional kernel (even if
he can't spell it) among several services, so the microkernel doesn't
have to be involved with the details of the IO. The slave does have to
ask the boss for the resources as you say, but only once at system
startup and never again.

Nuts. [that was said politely :)] Consider a system that has an
uptime of years. Rebooting to acquire or redistribute resources is
not an option. think about replacing or adding gear without
having to reload the system. And what about cores who have a need
to cooperate with each other? Then think about updating software
such as those DLLs (I think that's what you call them). Are you
going to cause a system or CPU reboot? If you do need a CPU to
reboot, how do you go about it without having to take the rest
of the CPUs or the whole system down?

These are all extremely rare events (i.e., not on the order of thousands
of times per second). So "never" again wasn't quite accurate, but the
point is that the requests for new resources don't happen enough to be
considered as part of the load (if you're going to have hot-swapping you
do need to make sure it all works -- but it isn't part of why this
organization doesn't make much sense).
And this is just thinking about executables which are staid; I'm not
thinking at all about data, static nor variable. Good grief...the
static data would be a bitch...now that I am thinking about it.


And the 1990s were mostly small computer thinking. Some days, I wish
the distributed computing had stayed a pipe dream in the 80s.

The issues in microkernel vs. more conventional organizations have
nothing to do with small vs. large computer thinking. If anything, it's
easier to see a path to things like upgrading and restarting services as
necessary, and isolating bugs to ensure multi-year uptimes, with a
microkernel than with a modular OS. Not any easier to actually get
there, but easier to see the path.
 
R

Rich Grise

Proper pseudocode looks a lot like BASIC.

Yeah, and to me it looks like C, to someone else it looks like Pascal,
to some it looks like COBOL - reminds me of the 7 blind guys and an
elephant. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
P

Patrick Scheible

John Larkin said:
John said:
On Sun, 31 May 2009 14:16:40 -0500, Charles Richmond

jmfbahciv wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
[snip...] [snip...] [snip...]

She said "really." She's being a timeshare snob just because I had a
PDP-11 and she had a VAX.

John


There is no reason to be insulting. You don't know what you're
talking about now.

/BAH
It should be spelled "VAXX", because we all *know* it is a "four letter
word". ;-)

I worked in one place that had two VAXes, "Max the Vax" and "Maxine
the Vaccine."

In one of my PPOE's, they had a VAX cluster with at least eight
VAX (8600's, I think). The cluster was "slow as Christmas", because
everybody and his brother had accounts and constantly used the machine.

Trying to edit with EDT, I would press the "right arrow" a dozen times
and *nothing*. Then all of a sudden, the cursor would *fly* across
the screen!!!

Sounds like Word on my dual-core 1.9 GHz Xeon... roughly 1000 VAX
mips.

That's strange. What else is your dual-core Xeon working on? Word
has many annoying things, but on a reasonably fast processor
keystrokes are almost instantaneous for me.

-- Patrick
 
P

Patrick Scheible

jmfbahciv said:
Charles said:
jmfbahciv said:
John Larkin wrote:

[snip...] [snip...] [snip...]

She said "really." She's being a timeshare snob just because I had a
PDP-11 and she had a VAX.

John


There is no reason to be insulting. You don't know what you're
talking about now.

/BAH

It should be spelled "VAXX", because we all *know* it is a "four letter
word". ;-)

nah. It was a 36-bit wannabe with 1/4 of its pecker chopped off.

I think you mean 1/9th?

-- Patrick
 
R

Rich Grise

I'm a simple circuit designer. And I think I see the way computer
chips are headed. I'm interested in how that might change OS design.
Apparently nobody else is. So whoever does design the next gen of
operating systems, they aren't here.

As soon as somebody comes up with a stable chip design, some Linux geek
will be all over it like a cheap suit. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
 
A

Andrew Gabriel

The trend, both x86 and Core, is a bunch of CPUs surrounding a central
cache, the off the chip to a front-side bus and one huge DRAM space.
Main memory is shared, hopefully with some sensible memory management
to keep any one CPU from trashing the world+dog.

Hum... AMD abandoned this 5 or more years ago, and Intel just
abandoned it with Nehalem, so I would call it an obsolete trend.
Front-side busses couldn't keep up -- they were saturated by
just 2 cores. Both have now switched to the architecture used
by (at least some) of the risc enterprise systems with local
memory attached directly to the CPUs, and fast CPU interconnects.
This does require OS's that know how to perform memory placement
optimisation for best performance, understanding that different
areas of main memory have significantly different access speeds
from different CPUs.
 
J

Joe Pfeiffer

John Larkin said:
Yup. Linux may be the first OS to do what I like, which is to dedicate
a core to the OS.

No, it doesn't. It's multithreaded, and the threads are free to migrate
from core to core (there is a cost associated with this, to keep things
cached).
Linux aready has the GUI outside of the kerna/e/l,

Though some of the low-level IO required is migrating back into the
kernel.
and sometimes the file systems, too.

Some of the filesystems. Actually, the only FUSE filesystem I've seen
that wasn't built on top of an existing in-kernel filesystem was written
by a student of mine to read CDs...
 
A

Andrew Gabriel

Yes, but the single chip versions are just cut-down versions
of the same chips, without the high speed chip interconnects.

Makes it sound like they invented the concept!
Actually, other chip designers have known for years that it
wasn't possible to keep making single cores faster, and to
get more compute power, have been producing multi-core chips.

No idea what that's got to do with the discussion, but amnyway...
There are indeed times when you specifically don't want all the
cores busy. If you have an important single-threaded task you
need to complete quickly, even if you have enough other work to
keep the other cores busy, you'll do this by powering down some
of the other cores so the important single-threaded task can be
put onto a core which is cranked up to max speed (and hence max
power consumption), which you can't do on all cores at once.
However, when you want highest total throughput, then you want
to run all cores, even though you can't do so at max speed of
any one of them, because you would exceed the thermal capabilities
of the die. This all implies a kernel level thread scheduler which
is more intelligent than is commonly found in x86 based OS's today,
although not in Enterprise OS's. A power-aware scheduler will keep
an eye on the utilisation of the cores, and switch off cores when
there isn't a sustained workload to keep them all busy.
And this:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/01/amd_launches_istanbul/

"The Istanbul Opterons contain 904 million transistors, which consist
of six cores, each with 64 KB of L1 data cache, 64 KB of L1
instruction cache, and 512 KB of L2 cache per core. The chip, which is
implemented in a 45 nanometer silicon-on-insulator process and
manufactured by AMD's fab spinoff, GlobalFoundries, in its Dresden,
Germany fab. Each chip also has 6 MB of L3 cache that is shared by all
of the cores..."


Folks seem to be dumping parallel front-side busses for multiple
serial interfaces, which will allow many independent DRAM and other
i/o ports.

The front-side bus went away for the reason I said earlier.

The switch to serial interfaces is for an interesting reason...
DRAM has been getting faster and faster, but that limits the
length of a parallel bus, and it reached the point where you
couldn't get more than 2 or 4 DIMMs running at max speed,
because any additional DIMMs are too far away from the processor
for the bus speed. The switch to serial interfaces (FBDIMMs)
removes the parallel bus data skewing problem, and it's easier
to get a serial bit rate running an order of magnitude faster
than it is to recover skewed data from a parallel bus. Serial
busses can be much longer, which means you can physically
connect out to more FBDIMMs. FBDIMMs are more power hungry though.
Another technique which is being used is serial interface from
the CPU same as FBDIMMs but conversion to parallel DIMMs right
next to the DIMMs. This gives the advantages of being able to
position DIMMs more than an inch or two from the chip as with
FBDIMMs and get full speed, but with the lower cost and lower
power of parallel DIMMs, although you still have higher latency.

(This parallel bus data skewing is also the reason the parallel
SCSI and parallel ATA interfaces have both gone serial. The
SCSI vendors spent a while trying to get Ultra640 SCSI working,
before giving up and deciding serial SCSI was the way forward.)
Sharing a central cache sure makes processor management easier.

I think all multi-core chips have always done that, except a few
strange Intel ones where they just shoe-horned two dies into one
package to get something to market early.
 
P

Patrick Scheible

John Larkin said:
jmfbahciv said:
Charles Richmond wrote:
jmfbahciv wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

[snip...] [snip...] [snip...]

She said "really." She's being a timeshare snob just because I had a
PDP-11 and she had a VAX.

John


There is no reason to be insulting. You don't know what you're
talking about now.

/BAH

It should be spelled "VAXX", because we all *know* it is a "four letter
word". ;-)



nah. It was a 36-bit wannabe with 1/4 of its pecker chopped off.

I think you mean 1/9th?

-- Patrick

Maybe she's working in octal.

In octal, it would have been 1/11th.

-- Patrick
 
J

Joe Pfeiffer

I think all multi-core chips have always done that, except a few
strange Intel ones where they just shoe-horned two dies into one
package to get something to market early.

Well, L2 shared (though Nehalem has individual L2s and a shared on-chip
L3).
 
P

Peter Flass

Charles said:
I did *not* say you should quit. It is *not* clear whether refusing
to train your replacement would qualify for the company to fire you
"for cause". There are several rules governing whether the company
can claim that...

Nothing would stop them from giving you a bad reference, even by way of
strategic pauses in a conversation so you couldn't pin anything on them.
 
P

Peter Flass

John said:
Because this isn't the auld days, and because I'd design it that way.
I do design computer systems, hardware and software.

Do you ever have ideas any more? Have you ever written an OS? Do you
think things won't change in, say, 20 years?

They haven't changed all that much in the last 40. Sure, things are
bigger and faster now, but people still keep making the same stupid
mistakes.
 
P

Peter Flass

John said:
Yup. Linux may be the first OS to do what I like, which is to dedicate
a core to the OS. Linux aready has the GUI outside of the kerna/e/l,
and sometimes the file systems, too.

John

As did OS/2 years ago. I think the file systems run in ring 2.
 
C

Capt. Cave Man

The initial
design was that the control electronics in the base
of each mirror would be used to do an overnight
calculation of the following morning's dawn position,
but the computation modeled out as taking more
than the overnight period using the processing power
of the control electronics (which was designed more
for continuous tracking on the risen sun and handling
wind and gravity effects on the mirror mechanism).


That is cool. My PSP could probably handle it now. :)
 
R

Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj

Jeff said:
420 posts on Vintage Dream PC in 13 days. That averages out to 32 per day.
And the thread instigator was heavily castigated for reviving the thread
from February. He was reviled as a troll and such.
But of course the thread has now drifted afar.
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

At a PPOE in 1980, I worked on the code to get
the mirrors of the Solar One point focus solar
collector to move from their overnight stowed position
(mirror facing down) to their initial morning position
(maximize flux from first limb of the sun appearing
over the horizon). As the mirrors were spread over
a large area (as can still be seen in satellite views),
and there were hills to the East of the location, and
there were 1,818 mirrors, the calculation of the
ephemeris for each mirror was a real joy. The initial
design was that the control electronics in the base
of each mirror would be used to do an overnight
calculation of the following morning's dawn position,
but the computation modeled out as taking more
than the overnight period using the processing power
of the control electronics (which was designed more
for continuous tracking on the risen sun and handling
wind and gravity effects on the mirror mechanism).
I suggested instead that the central computer (a
combination of Sandia and DEC equipment) do the
calculations with well-established FORTRAN code
during the overnight period, and then send the
initial values to the individual mirrors during the
fifteen minute wake-up period when the mirrors
moved to their dawn position.

As with many software projects on which I worked,
I never actually saw the system for which I developed
the code. In the case of the point focus solar collector,
the intention was to have the solar receiver generate
steam for driving a turbine electric generator. In order
to keep the working temperatures within the design
parameters of standard electric generation turbines
(1,050 F), the mirrors were focused over a fairly
large surface on the point focus tower, with the least
effective mirrors (those working with a large angle
between the Sun and the tower) pointed toward
sections of the tower receiver used to preheat the
water. A later version of the system used molten
salt as the working fluid, the tower focus was
tightened, and the working temperature was raised.

Getting back to the thread, before the steam system
was installed the mirrors were set on occasion for the
tightest possible focus, and that is when the temperatures
were brought up well beyond the melting point of steel
(or anything else, for that matter).

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA


Use the sun to collimate a natural LASER (as it were). Neat.
 
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