Most awful hack job, but my kid likes it

[tillius]

Well, I do so want it to be true (that Dubya caused 9/11), but I'm sure

it's a little more involved than that.

Well, as much as I disagree with about half of your politics, I really
like your honesty.

I agree that the socialist tobacco nazi's are whacked. People need to
show personal responsibility. If they choose to smoke, they should be
able to smoke, same as alcohol.

Tillman

 

[tillius]

all out of the same blue-nosed tree-hugging leftist weenie socialist cookie cutter...

don't forget slaver elistist.

Tillman

 

[Gunner]

I've just checked the presidential timeline, and it shows that the
proximate cause of of the 9/11 attack(s) was the election of George W.
Bush:
http://teacher.scholastic.com/researchtools/articlearchives/civics/presid/prtimeli.htm

Cheers!
Rich

Ill bet Bush was the cause of all these too..right?

Terrorist Attacks
(within the United States or against Americans abroad)


1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended
horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan,
killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist
terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.

1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern
killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist
group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings
to the group.

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S.
embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52
were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's
inauguration.

1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon
by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were
eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide
car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad
claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck
near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines.
Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their
barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait Shiite truck bombers attacked the
U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the
U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to
Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S.
soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to
Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days.
A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship,
Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and
Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans.
Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en
route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented
by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747
exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish
village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers
included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military
personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug.
2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World
Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995,
militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted
of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have
been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda
involvement is suspected.

1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office
building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed,
including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220
buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later
convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian
standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous
Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military
headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar
Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring
hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of
Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to
the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs
exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213
in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected
with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside
Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later
sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men
in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin
Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged
when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17
sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda
terrorist network.

2001
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

 

[Gunner]

No, they don't. They're in the grip of terminal brain lock, and the
only option they allow their little imprisoned mind to acknowledge
is to kill all of "them".

Thanks,
Rich

If we wanted to kill all of "them"....you would already be bulldozed
into a mass grave with the rest of "them"

You still being alive, is proof you are wrong.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

 

[David Brown]

Actually we are a lot safer with so many of Al Quidas management and
rank and file having become maggot food.

The rank and file are being replaced far faster than they are being
killed or captured. As for the management, that's a two-edged sword.
There's no doubt that a fair number of al Quida leaders have been taken
(although there are plenty of important members still at large). That
cuts out people with experience and administrative skills, leaving the
remains less organised. But it also cuts out those with wisdom,
patience, foresight and restraint, who command respect from the younger
recruits. Enthusiastic but leaderless terrorists can be just as
dangerous - if we ever progress towards peace, they are even more of a
problem. Look at conflicts like the IRA and Palestine - every now and
again, the leaders of the main groups agree on a cease fire and peace
talks, and then some half-wit young group does its own thing, sets off a
bomb, and claims to be part of the main organization.

Your opinion is noted.

In this group here, I couldn't ask for a greater compliment. I'd sooner
expect to see pigs fly than have anyone here change their beliefs or
opinions based on these discussions!

And you seem to forget that Wahabism wants to
not only bring a knife to the schoolyard..but wants to cut off your
head, the head of your wife and children, your dog and your gerbil,
then convert any survivors to miltitant Islam.

Wahabism is a particularly extreme form of Islam (and they don't want to
cut off your head - they want to convert you to Wahabism, and will only
cut off your head if you refuse). There are plenty of Christian sects
who feel anyone outside the group is damned, and it is their obligation
to convert as many people as possible in whatever way works.
Fortunately, these groups exist within a society and culture that (for
the most part) condemns violence, thus they are not violent, while
Wahabists and other extreme Islamist groups live in a society and
culture where violence and death is a more normal part of life. There
is not any real difference between Christianity and Islam - it's just a
difference of time and place. Norway was converted to Christainity by
the simple method of the king's army going from town to town offering
people the choice of Christianity or death.

But we both condemn the extremism and the violent ambitions of Wahabism,
which is bin Ladin's brand of Islam (Islam is on the whole, like
Christianity, a religion of peace and tolerance). The question is what
to do about it. I can certainly think of a few bad plans - give
enormous political, economical and military support to Wahabists
dictatorship regimes (such as Saudi Arabia). Perhaps destroy a
relatively secular country, and crush its people until they have no
source of motivation left except to run to the welcoming arms of
religion. Fight unmotivated wars in an effort to turn the entire
world's Muslim population against you, and make martyrs and folk heroes
out of Wahabists extremists like bin Ladin. It's not really that smart
a plan, is it?

Having buggered things up so dramatically, it's not clear what the US
should do now. If you pull out of Iraq, there is little doubt that
there will new terrorist attacks on the USA. But if the US made it
clear they had stopped messing with the middle east, then it is far more
likely to be attacks from the splinter groups you created than from
"official" groups. You are just going to have to grin and bear it -
you've brought it upon yourselves, and you can't avoid it entirely. It
won't last long - suicide bombers don't attack if they don't have good
reason.

 

[David Brown]

Odd..I see lots of opinion pieces, details of detainee policies, but
nothing about official US policies on torture. Cant you produce an
Executive order or something?

Ill be waiting for proof of your claims about Official US policy
approval on "torture"

Why should I research Executive orders or some sort of rubber-stamped
signed papers? The world's media, including (at last!) the mainstream
American press, have made it perfectly clear that torture has been used
in a number of American bases and on a large number of prisoners, with
both Americans and sub-contracted other nationals carrying out the
torture. I've no doubt that some of the reports are exaggerated or even
fabricated, but I've also no doubt that there have been plenty of
incidents that were never reported. There is no doubt that this
treatment of prisoners was not a matter of isolated incidents by
disobedient troops. There is no doubt that the mistreatment has not
stopped despite Bush's claims that the USA does not support torture.
There is no doubt that Bush has had his lawyers investigate the legality
of torture, with a view to using it. There is no doubt that Cheney has
being trying to stop legislation banning torture, and to at least
reserve the "right" of the CIA to torture (despite top CIA officials
protests that torture does not work). This all adds up to torture being
part of the official US policy. Whether it happens to be written down
in laws or not is irrelevant, as is what Bush says in front of the
press. When a mafia boss orders that someone be "dealt with", is he
less guilty just because he didn't sign off on a bit of paper, or
because he didn't use the word "killed"? In any crime hierarchy, the
top people try to keep their noses clean, and avoid paper trails, but
there comes a point when every finger points in the same direction.

Show me proof that the US administration condemns torture, and
immediately investigates all claims of torture at its facilities? Show
me proof that anyone involved in torture, from the lowest to the
highest, is investigated, tried, and punished for it? And I don't mean
just a couple of grunts used as scape-goats. Show me the proof that
when the CIA fly people around in their unmarked jets to unknown
destinations (refuelling, on a couple of occasions, at my nearest
airport), they are really just going off for a party at the US
taxpayer's expense.

If you want to argue that torture is justified under certain conditions,
or that these terrorist (suspects) deserve it, that's fair enough. I'd
disagree, obviously, but it's a standpoint I can understand. But don't
try to claim absurdities like torture isn't carried out with the
blessing of the US administration.

Btw Dave...what do you define as torture?

Why would I want to define it? The only reason to define it is so that
you can draw a line, and say it's okay to beat suspects up a bit, but
not too much.

 

[Robert Latest]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 08:56:22 -0700,

But should non-citizens be afforded the rights of full citizenship?

POW status hardly includes the rights of full citizenship.

If people are brought here against their will by a nation which, by
doing so, claims to blaze the trail to human rights and democracy, they
should be treated by the standards their captors proclaim.

Not being imprisoned unless sentenced by a criminal court of justice is
such an elementary right.

Let's remember that we know nothing about these people except that they
were picked off the streets during an invasive military operation and
then were declared "illegal combatants" -- a term coined only to avoid
having to treat them as POWs. All this stinks.

robert

 

[Robert Latest]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:56:28 -0700,

Then form your own fucking village idiot country. It's time we
started machine-gunning illegal immigrants, or at least sentence them
to one year on the rock pile then send them back.

This kind of sentiment is awfully close to that which drove my
grandparents (ironically) to the US, thereby escaping certain death for
having been declared illegal in their home country. Their offense? Being
Jewish.

robert

 

[Robert Latest]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On 15 Nov 2005 16:43:19 GMT,

No, that's a red herring. Clinton's ineffective responses to terrorist
acts caused them to become emboldened, and escalate, and as a result we
have 9/11.

And what has Bush's more effective response got us? More terrorism all
over the world, and a hugely increasing number of candidates to commit
the next 9/11 (whatever it may be).

robert

 

[Robert Latest]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:37:29 -0500,

I know of a large institution that spent over a million dollars replacing
all their outlets with new ones with the ground prong correctly installed on
the top.

They shoukd just have installed SCHUKO sockets to get rid of the problem
altogether.

robert

 

[Gunner]

Why should I research Executive orders or some sort of rubber-stamped
signed papers? The world's media, including (at last!) the mainstream
American press, have made it perfectly clear that torture has been used
in a number of American bases and on a large number of prisoners, with
both Americans and sub-contracted other nationals carrying out the
torture.

Is this the same Media that gave us Dan Rather and Memogate?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

 

[Dave Hinz]

Well, I do so want it to be true (that Dubya caused 9/11), but I'm sure
it's a little more involved than that.

At least you're open about your bias.

The point was to make a point by using the same tactics as the
antismokerist epidemiologists that got smoking practically banned by
doing the same thing, or worse - I haven't checked the numbers lately, but
I've heard that as smoking rates have declined, cancer rates have remained
steady or increased, along with obesity, diabetes, asthma - yes, as
smoking has decreased, asthma has increased! and so on. But I've known all
along that they are idologues and so will find a way to "prove" their
point. (the antismokerists, that is.)

Not a big fan of science, are you. You are aware of the peer-reviewed
studies showing the cause:effect relationship between smoking and
cancer, right? Not at all the same thing as "9/11 happened after the
election", and I suspect that you know that.

But it does kinda show how logic flies out the window when you're on a
crusade.

"Ironic" doesn't even begin to describe the fact that you wrote this,
here, now.

 

[Dave Hinz]

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On 15 Nov 2005 16:43:19 GMT,

No, that's a red herring. Clinton's ineffective responses to terrorist
acts caused them to become emboldened, and escalate, and as a result we
have 9/11.

And what has Bush's more effective response got us?

Last I checked, the US hasn't been the recipeint of the promised "event
which would make 9/11 look like nothing".

More terrorism all
over the world, and a hugely increasing number of candidates to commit
the next 9/11 (whatever it may be).

Hm. Let's see. US responds strongly, keeps someone known to have used
WMDs from giving them to the group which has attacked us. US doesn't
get attacked.

"all over the world" wrings their hands and doesn't act decisively.
"all over the world" gets attacked.

Yup, there's a pattern here, no question about that.

 

[Dave Hinz]

Mullens is right up there with Bemelman and Sloman... all out of the
same blue-nosed tree-hugging leftist weenie socialist cookie cutter...
just like Win Hill ;-)

Oddly enough, none of those names ring a bell either, but I bet they're
in the same filter Mullens has joined, maybe?

 

[Keith Williams]

Oddly enough, none of those names ring a bell either, but I bet they're
in the same filter Mullens has joined, maybe?

They're all on the SED side of the crosspost.

 

[Richard the Dreaded Libertarian]

Well, as much as I disagree with about half of your politics, I really
like your honesty.

I agree that the socialist tobacco nazi's are whacked. People need to
show personal responsibility. If they choose to smoke, they should be
able to smoke, same as alcohol.

What really disgusts me about the antis is the huge amount of money - tax
money, _our_ money - that they're lavishing on that "oh, do you need help
quitting" kind of propaganda.

****, man! If you don't want to smoke, just fucking _DON'T SMOKE_! "Gee,
I couldn't prevent myself from pulling my car into the store lot, getting
out, and plunking down four and a half bucks for these things I'm so
desperately trying to get out from under the grip of ..."

Grow the **** up.

But, I guess we're possessed by Demon Tobacco, and need to be Saved.

Feh.
Rich

 

[George Willer]

Please write your suggestion again... this time in English.

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:37:29 -0500,

I know of a large institution that spent over a million dollars replacing
all their outlets with new ones with the ground prong correctly installed
on
the top.

They shoukd just have installed SCHUKO sockets to get rid of the problem
altogether.

robert

 

[Richard the Dreaded Libertarian]

Not a big fan of science, are you.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am. The actual "scientific method", that is,
not the kind where you design experiments that are guaranteed to "prove"
whatever ideology your crusade is about.

You are aware of the peer-reviewed
studies showing the cause:effect relationship between smoking and
cancer, right?

Oh, in spades! I was a document coder on two different tobacco
litigations, and saw thousands of ducuments. I've not only seen the
"studies" that you cite, but I've also seen the refutations, that
are backed up by actual _facts_, rather than passion. The crusaders
used fudged data, and violated their own standards for statistical
accuracy!

This guy does a good job of exposing the lies/propaganda, but you'd
have to bother to read it, and if you're already convinced, there's
clearly no point in trying to confuse you with facts:

http://www.lcolby.com/index.html

Not at all the same thing as "9/11 happened after the
election", and I suspect that you know that.

Just read the above web site - you'll find out that it's even worse.

"Ironic" doesn't even begin to describe the fact that you wrote this,
here, now.

Hmm. I'll take that as a compliment!

Thanks!
Rich

 

[Dave Hinz]

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am. The actual "scientific method", that is,
not the kind where you design experiments that are guaranteed to "prove"
whatever ideology your crusade is about.

Yuh-huh, ok, and?

Oh, in spades! I was a document coder on two different tobacco
litigations, and saw thousands of ducuments. I've not only seen the
"studies" that you cite, but I've also seen the refutations, that
are backed up by actual _facts_, rather than passion. The crusaders
used fudged data, and violated their own standards for statistical
accuracy!

Ah, so smoking is _good_ for you then. Well, great. Glad you cleared
it up.

This guy does a good job of exposing the lies/propaganda, but you'd
have to bother to read it, and if you're already convinced, there's
clearly no point in trying to confuse you with facts:
http://www.lcolby.com/index.html

Whatever. I'm sure you're passionate about this issue, and I'm sure
that I am not. Smoke all you want, I don't care. It annoys me that
your stench interferes with my enjoyment of dinner, but that's my
prolem, isn't it.

Just read the above web site - you'll find out that it's even worse.

What, that a lawyer is now a scientific expert? What peer-reviewed
studies has he authored? I can't seem to find any on his rampage.
Webpage. Whatever. To be honest, I kind of lost interest
when I read the bit about "Nazis blamed smoking for cancer", as if
somehow the politics behind a study invalidate it's findings, and the
findings of any other study. Trying to associate anti-smoking studies
with nazis is, well, quite frankly, one of those "red flags".

Hmm. I'll take that as a compliment!

Your choice.

 

[Harold and Susan Vordos]

snip---

They shoukd just have installed SCHUKO sockets to get rid of the problem
altogether.

robert

Explanation, please? (Please post your reply on RCM. I do not follow SED)

Harold