Lead free solder - exposed in a UK national newspaper

[James Beck]

Instead of banning polluting substances, we should be regulating the
pollution they create.

In other words, it doesn't matter how much of a harmful substance you use in
manufacturing a product, but how much of it gets into the environment. It's
the latter we should be worried about, not the former.

I think you have hit on something here.

 

[Arfa Daily]

Recycling is the issue. The only current economical way to do it is to
ship
the equipment to third-world countries where poverty-stricken can
dismantle
it.

In days gone by, prisoners in the UK sewed mailbags. It seems to me that
there is a vast untapped pool of labour there now, languishing at my
expense, in the jails. So why not set up electronic recycling plants in the
prisons? That way, you get the job done in a properly supervised manner, and
the cost of labour is not an issue. Ever. Bish bash bosh, the jobs a good
'un, as they say ...

Just as a matter of interest, I saw a documentary on TV a while back, where
a UK company is recycling computer hardware for the gold that's used to
plate connectors and so on. In order to get at the gold loaded components,
it is necessary for them to dismantle and effectively recycle virtually the
whole machine. Even given the fact that they have to do this, which is a
useful side effect of the process, and the fact that they then have to put
the stuff through assorted chemical processes to recover the pure gold, they
are still recovering enough to be covering their costs plus making a very
large profit on the whole operation.

So if a few politicians pulled their fingers out of their arses, and started
thinking outside the box on how to manage the pollution as William suggests,
instead of trying to stop it with inane directives such as RoHS, we wouldn't
need to have so much ecobollocks thrust at us.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

Mettalic lead has been shown to have very little impact on the
environment. Especially after it has built up an oxide layer.

Ah, but we aren't talking about running a smelting operation, are we?

I don't know.
Comparing burying metallic lead VS a smelting operation, that borders on
pinheadiness.


Until they come up with better alternatives, I'll stick with good old
lead/tin. When I left my last job, I had a full physical including a
lead test, and even though I had been "exposed" to lead solder almost
daily for 13 years, my blood lead levels were almost not measurable and
that puts me below the national average for people that don't work with
solder at all. Why would that be if lead/tin solder were so dangerous?

Jim

Unfortunately, if you are professionally involved in the repair of
electronic equipment in Europe, continuing to use leaded solder, unless the
equipment was placed on the market prior to June 2006 or is manufactured in
leaded solder now due to an exemption, is no longer a legal option. I am
required under threat of law, to use only solder and components, which
preserve the RoHS approval of the equipment in question. I don't suppose
realistically, that any 'solder police' are going to come knocking on my
door to enforce this, but with some of the jobsworths that there are in
local government departments now, it's just not worth the risk of a whopping
fine and even the potential for prison, for disobeying the directive.

Arfa

 

[James Beck]

Unfortunately, if you are professionally involved in the repair of
electronic equipment in Europe, continuing to use leaded solder, unless the
equipment was placed on the market prior to June 2006 or is manufactured in
leaded solder now due to an exemption, is no longer a legal option. I am
required under threat of law, to use only solder and components, which
preserve the RoHS approval of the equipment in question. I don't suppose
realistically, that any 'solder police' are going to come knocking on my
door to enforce this, but with some of the jobsworths that there are in
local government departments now, it's just not worth the risk of a whopping
fine and even the potential for prison, for disobeying the directive.

Arfa

I understand.
I'm sure we will have something similar here soon too, and I will be
forced to comply. Resistance is futile.

 

[James Beck]

Not if you can get all your lead from recycled materials,
and won't have to dig up any more ore and process it.

That is true, but you are still comparing apples to accordions here.
You brought up problems with a smelting operation that took place 2K
years ago as if it were applicable to the problem at hand. Yes, we know
that lead is "bad" and recycling is "good".

Otherwise, we have to look at the entire process.
That's just good engineering.


Maybe we go on different definitions. To me, "pinhead" refers
more to people who have very pointed, narrow ways of thinking,
and foolishly fail to choose wisely in regards to the big picture.


Easy one! Blood tests often fail to show up heavy metal toxicity.
You shouldn't expect them to, because the problem with heavy
metals is that they build up in body tissues, not the blood.
That's exactly the problem! They hang around in the body,
building up in and causing problems with vital organs (e.g.,
liver, colon, brain, bones) and *don't* easily dissolve out
in the blood and get flushed out.

How does that lead GET to the tissues of a human?
It has to get into the blood supply first.
A blood test is the best indicator of recent exposure and considering I
worked around lead solder 5 to 6 days a week, more when I worked on
hobby projects, the results would help determine if further tests on
tissue would be indicated.

Jim

 

[nospam]

It came from deep within the ground, in the form of lead ore,
which I think is much less of a health hazard than metallic lead
decomposing in a landfill and seeping into the water supply.

Lead is an element, it is composed of lead and can't decompose. It is so
soluble that water pipes and roofs are made out of it......
--

 

[Arfa Daily]

Y'know, normally I'm not of a political bent, but this one just screams
for it...

Didn't you fools in Europe learn *ANYTHING* from the examples of the
USA, USSR, and similar "one government over all" schemes? Take a hint:
Big Central Government equals Big Central Screwing to all persons
unfortunate enough to be subject to its whims.

<sigh>

Look, mommy! See how much better life is under the nuturing wing of the
EU?

(So says an American victim...)

We 'fools' learnt plenty Don. Which is why most people in the UK don't
consider themselves part of Europe, and never will. If you know anything at
all about the UK, you will know that we are a free democracy. Free, that is,
to be controlled by a government that has now been in too long, and thinks
that it is a dictatorship. You may have seen on your news - because from
what I've seen on your TV when I've been there, just occasionally, the TV
companies do look up on a map wherabouts the UK is, and carry the odd
interest piece - that our wonderful leader Brown (are you aware it's not
Blair any more ?) has just signed up to a new European Treaty that we had
already rejected, along with a couple of other countries. They said it was
different, but all they had actually done, was rename it. Despite promising
the country a referendum on the original treaty, Brown then reneged on that,
contending that it was not the same treaty that they had promised to ask us
whether we wanted ...

You just cannot fight that sort of thing, so whilst we learnt, and
understand all about it, we have little option now but to be swept along in
Euro-hysteria, and comply with all the nonsense self justifying crap that
comes across to us from Brussels :-\

So speaks a British victim ...

Arfa

 

[[email protected]]

I've never turned on my shop spectrometer to determine if it was the
flux or solder.  I just know that the new stuff doesn't smell as
friendly to my human nose.

40+ years, 5 pounds, yadda,yadda...how much 'new' solder have you used?
  I suspect you're just trying to pick a fight.  I'm not playing.

 See ya.

Heavens no. I don't fight. I just try to state facts to the best of my
knowledge with as little embellishment as I can. I don't know about
your soldering tools but we now use only Metcal soldering stations at
work besides my personal one at home. Point is a Metcal has a very
well defined temperature not likely to vaporize solder - though what
tool would?

Tried a very small amount of lead free solder, didn't like how it
behaved and then set it aside to keep using leaded solder until I
can't get it anymore. The antique stuff I work on has leaded solder so
it seems proper to repair it with the same type solder

Oddly, using lead free solder on copper pipe was kind of fun in that
the solder had a very well defined melt point that seemed to almost
instantly flow. IIRC it was 95% tin, 5% antimony.

GG

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jeff Liebermann"

Most of the x-rays emitted by CRT's come out the BACK of the tube, not
the front. The shadow mask blocks most of them.

** How so ??

X-rays are generated at the point where maximum electron deceleration
occurs - ie as the moment they

1. Hit the colour phosphors.

2. Are intercepted and absorbed by the shadow mask while on the way
there.

In case 1, x-rays travelling towards the viewer are absorbed only by the
face glass.

In case 2, x-rays are generated on the reverse side of the shadow mask
and then travel both forward and backwards. Those travelling forwards
are absorbed by the face glass.

The face glass is many times thicker than the rest of a CRT's glass - so it
contains most of the of lead.

The shadow mask itself is made from very thin alloys sheet ( " invar " or
nickel-iron) so will not absorb x-rays to any great extent.



...... Phil






That's also why

 

[N_Cook]

Most of the x-rays emitted by CRT's come out the BACK of the tube, not
the front. The shadow mask blocks most of them. That's also why
there's much more lead in the neck of the CRT, than in the face.

This has a fairly good table of lead content in CRT's.
<http://www.eiae.org/chemicals/files/EIA_CRT_5-01.pdf>
From page 3:
"The average CRT for the time period 1995 to 2000,
including televisions and monitors, is an 18.63-inch
CRT with a lead content that varies from 2.14 lbs
to 2.63 lbs."
Note that this was in 2001. It's much less now.

None of the current LCD panel manufacturers use lead in their LCD
panels. Yet, the People's Republic of California insists on treating
LCD panels (pre-pay recycling fee, hazardous waste, special handling,
etc) the same way as CRT's. That's probably because they can't tell
the difference between a CRT and and an LCD. Sigh.



--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558 [email protected]-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com [email protected]
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

How toxic is LCD liquid crystal though ?

 

[Arfa Daily]

Tried a very small amount of lead free solder, didn't like how it
behaved and then set it aside to keep using leaded solder until I
can't get it anymore. The antique stuff I work on has leaded solder so
it seems proper to repair it with the same type solder

Indeed, some experts recommend this, saying that mixing leaded and lead-free
in the same joint, reduces the potential integrity of that joint

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

Try tin/silver, *no* copper.
Nice shiny (sexy looking?) surfaces, easy to solder, have seen no
problems in 2 years where circuits get a lot of temperature cycling.

My usual supplier was doing small samples of just about every type that he
carried. I'll have a look and see if he still is. What's the melting
temperature of that mix, and what's the price like ?

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Jeff Liebermann"


** How so ??

X-rays are generated at the point where maximum electron deceleration
occurs - ie as the moment they

1. Hit the colour phosphors.

2. Are intercepted and absorbed by the shadow mask while on the way
there.

In case 1, x-rays travelling towards the viewer are absorbed only by the
face glass.

In case 2, x-rays are generated on the reverse side of the shadow mask
and then travel both forward and backwards. Those travelling forwards
are absorbed by the face glass.

The face glass is many times thicker than the rest of a CRT's glass - so
it
contains most of the of lead.

The shadow mask itself is made from very thin alloys sheet ( " invar " or
nickel-iron) so will not absorb x-rays to any great extent.



..... Phil

That was kinda the way I understood it too, from my old college days, but
that was a long time ago ...

Arfa

 

[Eeyore]

Indeed, some experts recommend this, saying that mixing leaded and lead-free
in the same joint, reduces the potential integrity of that joint

Absolutely. When repairing old kit use leaded solder.

Graham

 

[Didi]

....
Basically, there isn't a lead-free alternative that works the same, or even
close, but you're missing the point(s). Firstly, there isn't *quite* such a
huge amount or disposal problem as they would have you believe. Second, the
lead in solder is pretty firmly 'locked into' the alloy, such that it
doesn't readily come out of the solder into water. Yes, I know that acid
rain can have some effect on that equation, but that's nothing like as bad
as it once was. Finally, all electronic equipment in Europe at least, is now
subject to the WEEE directive, which dictates the way it is treated at end
of life, covering recycling and disposal of the remains that can't be
recycled. There is no reason at all that leaded solder could not be
recovered and recycled, in the same way as lead free solder. 80% of the
world's metallic lead production goes to automotive battery manufacture.
Lead recovery and reuse from that product at end of life, has been mandated
and successfully carried out, for years.
...

All this being obviously true, it is inconceivable that the ROHS thing
has been done out of sheer stupidity - noone is that stupid, even
though
those in high offices routinely want to look that in order to be left
alone.
I can think of no plausible explanation for this ROHS madness
other than a well planned and executed sabotage action agaist the
countries which have (and rely on) an electronics industry. At a
scale that large, even the most expensive to bribe officials cost
peanuts.

Dimiter

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

My memory (which might very well be wrong) was that one of the principal
sources of X-rays was the HV rectifier. GE got into trouble over excessive
X-radiation from their HV rectifier -- though the tube was situated such
that the kids would have had to stick their feet under the set (!!!) to
receive any significant dosage.

The principal source of X-ray emissions on a CRT is from the electrons
hitting the slot mask immediately behind the phosphor screen face, as
well as electron impacts on the phosphors themselves..

X-rays are exhibited whenever an electron strikes a metal surface.

With things like a welding arc, it is barely measurable and considered
negligible. A TV screen, however, is thousands of "arcs" at one time. It
is still fairly negligible, however.

No, HV power supplies, even those intended for use as an anode supply,
do not emit X-rays.

 

[krw]

The principal source of X-ray emissions on a CRT is from the electrons
hitting the slot mask immediately behind the phosphor screen face, as
well as electron impacts on the phosphors themselves..

"Principal"? Two wrongs in one word.

X-rays are exhibited whenever an electron strikes a metal surface.

Whenever? Riiggghhtt, Dimbulb.

With things like a welding arc, it is barely measurable and considered
negligible. A TV screen, however, is thousands of "arcs" at one time. It
is still fairly negligible, however.

No, HV power supplies, even those intended for use as an anode supply,
do not emit X-rays.

AlwaysWring strikes again!

 

[Arfa Daily]

All this being obviously true, it is inconceivable that the ROHS thing
has been done out of sheer stupidity - noone is that stupid, even
though
those in high offices routinely want to look that in order to be left
alone.
I can think of no plausible explanation for this ROHS madness
other than a well planned and executed sabotage action agaist the
countries which have (and rely on) an electronics industry. At a
scale that large, even the most expensive to bribe officials cost
peanuts.

Dimiter

I don't think that I would say that it has been done out of "sheer
stupidity" - more out of misinformed madness. My feeling is that once lead
had been determined to be a potential health hazard, as it probably was when
lead compounds were added to petrol as anti-knock agents, then all uses of
the material became automatically 'demonised', irrespective of whether any
threat from them was real, or imagined. The ecobollocks that I have referred
to elsewhere in this thread, has reached the point of unjustified hysteria
amongst both the politicos and, worryingly, the scientific establishment,
who should know better.

Governments rely heavily on so-called scientific advisors, but it seems to
me that many of these are receiving commercial grants from government, and
will tell them whatever they want to hear. Much of the current ecohysteria
that is reported in the press, is based on very dubious science, that in my
day, would have been thrown out of school for poor methodology. I, and most
others in the electronic service industry, simply do not believe that lead
in solder represents any threat to health, or the environment at all, and I
personally have seen no persuasive evidence from any quarter to convince me
otherwise.

I think that lead based solder is just an unfortunate victim of someone's
over-enthusiastic approach to anything containing lead, and the whole RoHS
thing has just swept it along with itself, without those who caused it in
the first place, understanding the full implications of just what they've
done. Apart from anything else, just consider how much extra power is being
used every day world wide, to run all of the production solder baths and
hand soldering tools, 30 or 40 degrees hotter than was needed for lead-based
solder ... Eco-friendly, or what ...?

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

Although the EPA noted that metallic lead does corrode,
resulting in toxic soluble compounds, they didn't say anywhere
(at least that I could find) that lead in landfills is
considered a significant problem, and there was no mention
of danger from tossing used electronics in the trash.

Jay Ts
--

Unless, of course, it's a CFL full of nasty mercury compounds ... d;~}

Arfa

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

Whenever? Riiggghhtt, Dimbulb.

Yes, you retarded fuckhead.

First off, how fast is an electron moving when it is in free air or a
vacuum?

If the return for a "source" of an electron or stream of electrons is
metallic, something those of us in the industry refer to as a target,
when said electron strikes that return point, it WILL emit X-rays.

An X-ray emitter tube for X-ray machines works on that very principle!

A beam of electrons strikes a Palladium return point or target, and
X-ray flux emission off the face of the target is one of the resultant
effects of said electron beam's entry into said return point.

The differences are in power level, and also different mediums exhibit
X_rays better than others.

The fact still remains, however,that ALL metals DO exhibit SOME amount
of X-rays when struck by an electron or electron beam.

So Shut The **** Up, KeithTard!