Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Isolated, regulated, toroidal step down transformer AC power supply design.

B

Bob Parker

**His belligerence is quite mystifying.


You're not wrong. I can imagine him asking on an automotive
newsgroup for advice about a misfiring engine.

"What kind of engine is it?"

"An internal combustion one."

"No, I mean is it petrol or diesel? Four-stroke or two-stroke."

"You don't need to know that, so I'm not going to tell you. My
engine is misfiring and I want to know how to stop it from doing that."

"You need to tell us some specifics so we can give you relevant
advice."

"Hey, *I* decide what I tell people - that's *MY* right. You don't
need to know any more than that it's an internal combustion engine and
it misfires!! I personally think that if I can get 150 octane fuel,
that'll solve my problem. Why is it that you instantly jump on me for
exercising *MY* right to only tell you what you need to know?"

"OK. Then what kind of fuel does it use now?"

"It uses liquid hydrocarbons. You don't need to know more than
that. Oh and by the way Mr Smarty Mechanic, you didn't know that to
remove a spark plug, you have to turn it ANTI-CLOCKWISE!! I knew that,
but you didn't!! Now who's the knowledgeable one in this discussion? Nar
nar nar!!!"


Etc...
 
R

roughplanet

You're not wrong. I can imagine him asking on an automotive
newsgroup for advice about a misfiring engine.

"What kind of engine is it?"

"An internal combustion one."

"No, I mean is it petrol or diesel? Four-stroke or two-stroke."

"You don't need to know that, so I'm not going to tell you. My
engine is misfiring and I want to know how to stop it from doing that."

"You need to tell us some specifics so we can give you relevant
advice."

"Hey, *I* decide what I tell people - that's *MY* right. You don't
need to know any more than that it's an internal combustion engine and
it misfires!! I personally think that if I can get 150 octane fuel,
that'll solve my problem. Why is it that you instantly jump on me for
exercising *MY* right to only tell you what you need to know?"

"OK. Then what kind of fuel does it use now?"

"It uses liquid hydrocarbons. You don't need to know more than
that. Oh and by the way Mr Smarty Mechanic, you didn't know that to
remove a spark plug, you have to turn it ANTI-CLOCKWISE!! I knew that,
but you didn't!! Now who's the knowledgeable one in this discussion? Nar
nar nar!!!"

Etc...

Hah hah hah..........very good Bob. You don't write scripts for a living do
you?
If not, then consider a new profession as a stand-up comic. Based on the
above, you'd do very well :).

ruff
 
B

Bob Parker

roughplanet said:
Hah hah hah..........very good Bob. You don't write scripts for a living do
you?
If not, then consider a new profession as a stand-up comic. Based on the
above, you'd do very well :).

ruff

Thanks! Just trying to make a bit of an analogy there. :)

Bob
 
If you haven't tried already, try plugging your device into a sinewave
inverter or an UPS (dual conversion type) to see if your theory of
"regulated AC" solves your problem.
 
F

Franc Zabkar

Oh, dear me. Yes there is.

It's called a voltage doubling rectifier. It is a variant of the half wave
rectifier.

Is this what you mean?

D1
o-----|--|>|-----|-----o +V
| _|_ +
9VAC | --- C1
rms | |
o----- )---------+-----o 0V
| _|_ +
| --- C2
| D2 |
|--|<|-----|-----o -V
Ask Phil about it, he knows.

P.S. How many 'possible' values of '2' are there?

Let's count them togeather, shall we:

One
.
.

...well, I've run out of ideas. Anyone else?

- Franc Zabkar
 
D

dmm

when I moved to the US, my first job was to sort out production of a
900W UPS for terabyte RAID arrays. We had a 30% failure rate on motorola
7805s. The production manager said "motorola make bad 7805s". Upon
inspection I found our contract manufacturer was pop-riveting them to
the heatsink. We went from that to M3 machine screw + nut with captive
spring washer, and after building a further 19,000 units (over and above
the 300 we had already made) had zero failures. Hmm.

We had the same issue when I was working for a major whitegoods manufacturer
in the late 80's. The 7805's were getting pop-rivetted to the board through the
heatsink, then we'd be getting failures. Can't remember the failure rate though.
The 7805 tab transferred the shock of the pop-rivetting action to the the 7805 die
and fractured it. Same solution, no further problem.
 
B

Bob Parker

Terry said:
yeah, I second that. I wont buy a cap if I cant get a datasheet for it.
one 10uF cap with 27 Ohms ESR was enough for me. Of course now, thanks
to Bob, I can measure that in a jiffy :)

Cheers
Terry

Thanks Terry. Now I'm thinking about how to make a meter which shows
musicality in capacitors. Maybe do a frequency sweep to see how it
performs at the bass vs midrange vs treble ends of the spectrum? ;-)

Bob
 
B

Bob Parker

Terry said:
perhaps you could have a web-enabled instrument. If it can find a
datsheet, it gives it a low score, and vice-versa.

Hey, who makes your kits in USA? I want to recommend it to one of my
customers there.

Cheers
Terry

Yeah, sounds good to me!
Now that DSE's stopped making kits, about the only place anyone can
get an ESR meter one is from John's Jukes in Vancouver, Canada.
Website: http://www.flippers.com
HTH

Bob
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Terry Given said:
yeah, I second that. I wont buy a cap if I cant get a datasheet for it.
one 10uF cap with 27 Ohms ESR was enough for me. Of course now, thanks to
Bob, I can measure that in a jiffy :)

**YIKES! 27 Ohms! I purchased a Joe Master (long before I built Bob's
magnificent device) and whacked in a power supply I was servicing (it was
urgent and DSE was just up the road). The cap went belly-up within a week.
The ripple rating must have been appalling, as it was operating well within
Voltage limits. A decent cap from Farnell did the trip.
 
T

Two Bob

You ascribed to me the quality of idiocy. You are, after all, a 'decider'.

I retorted with a jest. After all, I do FEEL like and idiot for asking for
help at 'aus.electronics'.

I feel like an idiot, not because I put the question in the wrong forum OR
because the expertise isn't available here to solve it, but BECAUSE I
should have known better what you and your fellow 'Phil-o-philes' would
EXPECT me to 'put up with' in order to get it. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

The only smart thing you have done is post to this forum with your problem.
Where you have proven you are an idiot is by your attitude. You can come
along here for a number of reasons. For information, for enlightenment, for
the friendly banter, or as in your case, to be ripped to shreds because of
your arrogance.

You have admitted a number of times your lack of electronic knowledge. Then
you argue black is white when anyone tries to point you to the right path.
If you know the answer to your question, then piss off. If you dont, then
listen to those who are willing to help you.
 
P

Poxy

Bob said:
You're not wrong. I can imagine him asking on an automotive
newsgroup for advice about a misfiring engine.

"What kind of engine is it?"

"An internal combustion one."

"No, I mean is it petrol or diesel? Four-stroke or two-stroke."

"You don't need to know that, so I'm not going to tell you. My
engine is misfiring and I want to know how to stop it from doing
that."

"You need to tell us some specifics so we can give you relevant
advice."

"Hey, *I* decide what I tell people - that's *MY* right. You
don't need to know any more than that it's an internal combustion
engine and it misfires!! I personally think that if I can get 150
octane fuel, that'll solve my problem. Why is it that you instantly
jump on me for exercising *MY* right to only tell you what you need
to know?"

"OK. Then what kind of fuel does it use now?"

"It uses liquid hydrocarbons. You don't need to know more than
that. Oh and by the way Mr Smarty Mechanic, you didn't know that to
remove a spark plug, you have to turn it ANTI-CLOCKWISE!! I knew that,
but you didn't!! Now who's the knowledgeable one in this discussion?
Nar nar nar!!!"

Aha! Your're Mark! I knew he had to be a troll someone had made up to
torture us!
 
P

Poxy

Mark said:
Duh!

I've NEVER claimed to have any electronics expertise, what-so-ever.
Never.

Of course you did - the first thing you asked was about something that
produced a regulated AC voltage. A person with a reasonable background in
elecronics would assume you know what you're talking about to even consider
a relatively complex device.

As for the rest of your top-post, I don't know what this rant is in
reference to, as it's top posted.

Virtually every person who has responded to you has asked, mostly quite
kindly, to refrain from top posting. You refuse, arrogantly despite the fact
that you're seeking help and advice. Rude.

People who are honestly trying to help you - people who do have experience
and expertise - ask you what the device is and other questions, and you come
back with nothing, except the horribly arrogant attitude that they don't
need to know this. They are trying to help you for heaven's sake!

Finally, while you regard this as one big nasty conspiracy by a bunch of
dysfunctional sociopaths, you should possibly consider the more obvious
conclusion: a bunch of people have tried to help you, and one by one they've
all come to the same conclusion: you're behaving like a bit of a tool.

Chances are...


So this would be an oft used Usenet tactic, Vis-à-vis;

a) First, manufacture a claim and then infer that the other combatant
made it.

b) Then others may use that false claim as a justification for further
criticisms, attacks and/or allegations of arrogance, pseudo
intellectualism, whatever. At this point it is open slather.

c) Never-ever concern yourself with the truth of what claims the other
combatant did ACTUALLY make about their expertise or lack of it. This
would be sheer folly and may lead to the loss of the argument.

Regarding your suggested methodology. Making the suggested
measurements reveals nothing unless it is done during periods of
voltage overload. So OK, I could pull the DMM and quietly sit there
and wait for a hours, perhaps days, poised with my probes at exactly
the correct location and angle and just wait for something to happen.

Yes, I could do that, if I was a creation. Well done.

Regarding your assertion that I don't know "how challenging it is to
design and implement what you wanted". Well I certainly don't know
how difficult it is for YOU.

As it happens, I am one of the few contributors here who has ACTUALLY
suggested a viable and cost effective solution to my own request. Go
on, look back. I DARE YOU.

I am not being conceited here, I actually EXPECTED that I could get a
better solution from someone here.

Re: Your analogy. Could I suggest you reproduce it in another post
and I will go over it with you, point-by-point. This post is already
approaching an unmanageable size and in any case your 'analogy'
amounts to little more than 'white noise'.

Re: Bob's advice. It may be good advice. The likelihood of getting any
useable information from a .Usenet thread is inversely proportional
to its length. So the longer this goes on, the more likely it is good
advice.

Also, I don't know where you got that 'Pre-amp' presumption.
Certainly not from me.

You reckoned that if I was being honest I would say "Actually, I
built the engine, it's running badly, does anyone want to buy some
really good fuel filters?"

The natural presumption from that statement is, according to you at
least, that I would be dishonest if I claimed:

a) Not to have built it,
b) That it is running well (except during periods of over supply)
c) That I don't want to sell my caps.

However, all those things are true. So that is the first reason why
your analogy is fucked up and arse about.

I made no claim about making it, or designing it for that matter. I
did tell you that I had swapped some capacitors, which is only a
minor modification at best. I was a little surprised that nobody
suggested checking for dry joint(s) on the caps, but hey, that is
your prerogative.

Regarding this statement: "I thought my insightful analogy would help
you understand why people responded to you with derision".

I developed my own theory, days ago. Read my functional description
of the supposed club of 'deciders' that I have dubbed
'Phil-o-philes'. My theory much stronger that yours because, like all
good theories, my theory is based on verifiable, empirical
observations of facts. (i.e. when Phil inferred that the power to
"get to decide what others accept or believe" exists as a right that
some people may hold others not. To make such a distinction, he must
believe that the power a) ACTUALLY exits b) is assignable to various
individuals and to the exclusion of others, which is as much as
saying, he believes it exists as a RIGHT. He didn't say on what basis
this right might be bestowed on individuals, but we can only assume
it is earned by displaying superior knowledge or experience.

On the other had, your analogy is based on what? Three complete
falsehoods for a start and then no empirical observations that you
have elucidated thus far.

Your analogy is NOTHING more than OPINION, masquerading as analysis.
Perhaps you may develop it into something more useful, but thus far
it has the appearance of analogy by a 'petrol head', and nothing more.

Regarding your apology: I will give it my consideration.


Poxy said:
Mark said:
Well, I didn't think of searching for the '7815 datasheet', so
fucking sue
me.

That shows that you are not experienced in working with electronics -
anybody who regularly does searches for component numbers would
automatically add "datasheet". Furthermore, anyone with electronics
experience would understand the operating characteristics of a common
linear
regulator without needing to refer to a datasheet - it's really
common, basic stuff.
Either way, the cheapest solution is sounding like I should
exchange the 7815 /7915 pair, for a pair that DOES have that 30V
spec. and in so doing,
eliminate the possible cause of the observed clipping during voltage
overloads.

The first thing to do is measure voltages at key points - at the
output of the AC plugpack at the input of the regulators, at the
output of the regualtors etc. Boring I know, but that is how you
start the diagnosis a power supply problem. That you don't appear to
realise that really basic fact demonstrates a lack of knowledge and
experience with simple power supplies and suggests that you're not
equipped to diagnose nor fix the problem.
Also, I take umbrage (offence, to you) at your trite analogy. It
isn't an
accurate portrayal of what happened or my actions or my motivations
or my attitude. I would welcome a point-by-point comparison of your
analogy and my behaviour.

My analogy, horribly misspelt as it probably was, was reasonable, if
not as
amusing as I would have liked. You clearly don't get how challenging
it is to design and implement what you wanted - it's *really*
complex stuff. By comparison, getting a standard dual-rail, linear
regulator power supply to behave is trivial.

The more I think about it, Bob's advice is correct - you should get
someone
with a solid background in electronics to fix your preamp for you.
Your PRESUMPTION that I must pay too much for my Black Gates is
based on what? An ASSUMPTION that I pay foolish prices. That is
both insulting AND ignorant (of how cheaply Black Gates can be
purchased).

Hey, if they give the sparkling audio performance you like, fair
enough. I probably haven't paid enough attention to the musicality
of the caps I buy.
I also take umberage to your allegation that I am not "being
straight-up with [this group]".

You reckon that if i was being honest I would say "Actually, I
built the engine, it's running badly, does anyone want to buy some
really good fuel filters?" Here is why I wouldn't say such a thing:

a) I didn't build the application, I modified it.

You never said that. It does explain a lot. In my analogy, it would
be like
revealing that you'd modified your engine while at the same time
giving the
strong impression you don't really know how engines work.
b) It isn't running badly (under nominal conditions), it sounds
superb. c) I am not SELLING anything.

That was a joke. Sorry. I was kind of thinking that if your "thing"
didn't end up working, you could recover some cash-money by Ebaying
them fancy caps.
I look forward to our point-by-point comparison of your analogy
with my behaviour. I can't find many comparisons at all. Do you do
this often? (that is: make up stupid analogies that just don't
work).

Look, I've got nothing to add. I thought my insightful analogy would
help you understand why people responded to you with derision.
Obviously you still don't get it, and that seems to be because you
don't have the knowledge and experience in electronics to diagnose
and solve the fault - everything you say reinforces that fact.

Get someone who knows what they are doing to look at your device. If
it's a
power supply problem they'll diagnose and fix it very quickly.

And you might be able to pay them in capacitors :)
 
D

dmm

yep. good old AN1040 strikes again. I had to explain to the C.M. that
its basically a lump of glass soldered to a copper tab, and smacking it
hard with a hammer was a bad idea.

I had an even funnier one with the same UPS - doing a forensic analysis
on a failed unit, the flyback battery charger had died. I desoldered the
FET & heatsink, and when I lifted it out of the PCB, the FET spun
freely. The CM had used a nylok nut, and the nylon had melted, dribbling
out the back of the nut, which then worked itself loose. oops. So I
spec'd the same captive-spring-washer nuts we used, which were really
cute - they had a spring washer that looked like a belleville with 4
radial cuts, and the center of the nut was crimped around this, so the
spring washer could spin. lovely, and cheap.

Cheers
Terry

In my last job we used those sort of nuts (with integrated washer) in conjunction with
self broaching threads that were pressed into pcbs. The nut and thread held
down a plastic housing, and that wasn't going anywhere. It's a nice idea.
 
M

Mark

Ok, good idea.

The computer is in the dinning room, we rarely 'dine' together.

The Hi-Fi is in the bedroom. (where else!). It is part of my personal Hi-Fi,
not my sons.
 
D

dmm

Well, I didn't think of searching for the '7815 datasheet', so fucking sue
me.

Here's a couple of links to some datasheets. I think Alex Gibson posted
a couple of others earlier.
http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=MC7815
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/LM/LM7815.html
Quite fairly, I knew the extra voltage was required. It was never in doubt.
What was in doubt (and still is, in doubt) is HOW much over voltage my
particular IC can withstand and still continue to provide the required
voltage output at the peak current, under the load.

The 7815 can operate quite happily with up to 35 volts on its input. How it
maintains it's output voltage under maximum load and maximum input voltage
depends upon the heatsinking that it is connected to (if any), and that will dissipate
anything up to 15 watts. The 7815 will automatically shut down the output voltage
if it overheats. BTW, the 7815 is rated for a maximum output current of 1 ampere.
They've also got about 60dB of ripple isolation between the input and output.

If you have a 7815 and a 7915, then you're going to need a minimum of +/- 18
volts DC to feed each regulator, if you want to guarantee no output ripple.
That means you're going to have to have 3 power supply rails, +18 volts,
ground reference, and -18 volts.

BTW, the ground and the Vin pins of the 7815 are not the same pins as on the 7915.
It's observed behaviour strongly indicates that it can not. (very strongly).

What is the "over voltage" that you're experiencing? Are you measuring
it with a multimeter, and at what point are you measuring it? If you haven't
looked at a datasheet of the regulator, how can you be certain of what you're
measuring?

Are you sure you haven't got a short circuit somewhere else in the circuit that is
dragging down the regulator's 15V output voltage rail? Have you measured
the current that the regulators are supplying to the rest of your circuit?

BTW, what is your peak load? How may milliamps (or amperes)?
So maybe I have a faulty regulator. So maybe the faulty regulator was cased
by persistent voltage over loads in my domestic supply. Or, maybe the
particular 7815 /7915 pair that I have does not have the same spec.

You've got a lot of "maybe's" there. 7815's and their general family are hard
to kill and you'd either have to be pretty determined, or do something pretty stupid
to kill one. Mains supply overvoltages wouldn't have any effect on your regulators.
240VAC to 9VAC is a 26.7:1 ratio, so if your regs are dying because of your mains
supply, then the mains supply is going to be well over 500V. You're going to have
far greater problems than just some dodgy regulators in an audio amplifier/preamp.
Either way, the cheapest solution is sounding like I should exchange the
7815 /7915 pair, for a pair that DOES have that 30V spec. and in so doing,
eliminate the possible cause of the observed clipping during voltage
overloads.

They've all got 35V spec'd inputs, it's what's called a jelly bean part. They're cheap,
several manufacturers produce them, and they all have pretty much the same specifications.

The only way you can tell if it's really clipping is to observe the waveform at the time
of voltage "overloads" with an oscilloscope. I suspect what you're really getting is
noise coupling into some low level audio circuits when a motor or something
else that has a high current requirement switches on or off.
 
M

Mark

I am no expert, Franc, but I don't think so.

Doesn't look like the one I am looking at (but yours is very difficult to
read).

Anyway, I know that the one I am looking at takes in 9 VAC and outputs +/-
15VDC (after regulation) and looks like two half wave rectifiers with diodes
pointing in opposite directions.
 
M

Mark

Anyone who is genuinely mystified by my belligerence, either:

a) Didn't read or understand the thread and the chronology of its
development.

b) Doesn't understand the basic rules and principles of equality, or
understands them but does not apply them in newsgroups and believes that
different criteria or rules should be applied.

In which case, it would be helpful if you explained the basis on which you
discriminate
between my belligerence and Phils (or anyone else's.)
 
M

Mark

Yes it is.

Because I believed the voltage of the AC domestic supply was straying
outside the operating range of the existing regs (after transformation and
voltage doubling rectification) and because I wanted to replace an existing
wall-wart AC power supply with a regulated AC power supply and because the
application displays errant behaviour during times of over voltage supply.

Whatever criticisms you can make of my reasons, they are there in the thread
about 10 times. You didn't read the thread.

If I wished to spot UFO's, I don't think I'd need earplugs, of any
description.
 
M

Mark

I didn't/don't have any problems with you agreeing with Phil on technical
matters.

I might take exception to that rule if you agreed with him that voltage
doubling rectifiers can't be built from simple half wave rectifiers, but I
certainly wouldn't release an avalanche of insults at you if you did.

I AGREE with you that most of Phil's allies ('Phil-o-philes' as I call them)
don't actually LIKE Phil, but I don't exclude the possibility that many of
them may claim to like him. That is the nature of allegiance.

Many 'Phil-o-philes' are sadistic personalties, lacking in fortitude. His
'Attack Dogs', so to speak. More than a few of his allies actually fear him
and would be wary of making any simple statement of fact like "Phil is not
perfect" or "Phil makes mistakes as well".

A much smaller group are allied with him purely for reasons of conveyance.
These people wish to peruse other legitimate interests on the newsgroup.
They are much more likely to be the casual observers of Phil's victims
rather than the active participants of the persecutions.

I read your technical advice and I think I understood some of it.

I am not at all surprised that you don't agree with most of my
understandings. That is why I describe them as understandings, not facts. If
I aleady understood how to do what I THINK I needed, I certainly wouldn't be
here, I can assure you.

I fact the easiest way to get rid of me is just give me a good solution.
Whoever suggested the UPS was on the right track, I think. Simple and cheap
(on EBay).

To be quite plain Chris, it is possible and generally compliant with good
human nature not to humiliate people BECAUSE they need help.

I do feel foolish for expecting anything more than what I got.
 
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