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How does digital TV broadcast prevent ghosting effects?

J

Joerg

ChairmanOfTheBored said:
Likely because it isn't fucking true.

I have seen grain/pixellation in the movie theaters that now have
digital projection.

That drove me nuts last time. To the point where I haven't gone again.
We sat pretty high up in the back to avoid the pixelization but it was
still terrible.
 
K

krw

I've looked at Samsung and other brands side by side with it, all the
way up to $1300. The difference wasn't that great. Very slightly in
motion artefacts maybe but definitely nothing to write home about.
I found much the same thing recently but the viewing in the store
doesn't tell all. Like listening to stereo equipment in a showroom,
the store can change the environment and setup to sell any unit. The
VFW where I used to hang out bought a 32" Visio and I wasn't
impressed with its real life performance, though it looked "decent"
in the store. I ended up with the $1300 variety (42" Panasonic 1080p
plasma).
 
M

Mark Zenier

I have heard that US did chose 8VSB because Europe had an other system,
and 8VSB would help US industry, as Europe then had the same hurdles to
market as the US.

No, they picked 8VSB (for over the air, and a different modulation for
cable) because at that time COFDM wasn't developed enough. The US
standard was defined before the European one. This stuff has been
waiting around for ages, (15 years?), and not really going anywhere.

They made it very complex with something like 13 different screen size and
frame rate combinations and the requirement to deal with incoming 1080i
with reformatting for smaller displays for decoders. That's made the
decoders too expensive and made them wait for "Moore's Law" to catch up.
Add that it's not a worldwide market so the volume is lower.

They took so long that there's no US receiver industry left to protect.
And Direct Broadcast Satellite and Cable and the Internet has left the
decentralized broadcast industry with a declining market.

Mark Zenier [email protected]
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Likely because it isn't fucking true.

I have seen grain/pixellation in the movie theaters that now have
digital projection.

Just because you can discern individual pixels on your display doesn't
negate whether it is HD or not.

I think you misunderstood the issue.
If you cannot see individual pixels, then the detail is limited by your
vision, not by the number of pixels.

Sure, even 35 mm film, especially when the copies are old or bad or scratched
can not hold a candle to the new digital projectors that are appearing.
Run this through a translator perhaps:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/such...ds=Film;q=film;url=/newsticker/meldung/99137/


I have been an avid photographer in the long ago past, developed and
enlarged my own stuff, 'grain' on film is something differrent from
pixels in a sensor.
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

Our church seats about 300 so it's a pretty large room. The projector
hangs from a ceiling pod about half way from the front but AFAIR the
bulb didn't cost more than $500. I thought that was already quite
outrageous. The display on the projector screen is nice, probably about
12-15ft wide.


I was talking about getting a new projector and that cost. If your
bulb keeps blowing it is indicative of a bad design.

We use projectors at work on a daily basis and don't have bulb failures
at that rate.

For you to know the price of a new one from a previous failure is too
high a rate for me.
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

Video game are something I'll probably never touch during my time on
earth. When I was a kid I built a pong game, from DTL chips pried out of
discarded mainframe boards (with my pa's blow torch). Just for the
challenge, the millisecond it worked I gave it away.


A PS3 is far more than a video game. It incorporates one of the most
modern CPUs to date, and Sony allows the user to add their own Linux OS
to use it as a computing platform.

It is a good deal. One gets a BluRay disc player, a game console, and
a PC all in one package!
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

Makes sense for the serious user but not for us. Since you seem to know
a lot about DTV, is there any comprehensive guide that shows what will
play on the digital OTA channels? Like those weekly guides that used to
be available at the supermarket? Our local paper gives one out each
weekend but the digital channels aren't in there.


My tuner has a built in guide channel. The industry standard is xml
that gets sent with the broadcast signals, so you should have a guide
somewhere.
 
J

Joerg

ChairmanOfTheBored said:
I was talking about getting a new projector and that cost. If your
bulb keeps blowing it is indicative of a bad design.

We use projectors at work on a daily basis and don't have bulb failures
at that rate.

It has only failed once in about four years.

For you to know the price of a new one from a previous failure is too
high a rate for me.


Wasn't me who said that but our computer expert. He knows this stuff
inside out.
 
J

Joerg

ChairmanOfTheBored said:
My tuner has a built in guide channel. The industry standard is xml
that gets sent with the broadcast signals, so you should have a guide
somewhere.


So does ours. Some stations show the next 24hrs but not a whole week.
Others simply state "8:30 am - DTV programming". Not a lot of
information there.
 
J

Joerg

krw said:
I found much the same thing recently but the viewing in the store
doesn't tell all. Like listening to stereo equipment in a showroom,
the store can change the environment and setup to sell any unit. The
VFW where I used to hang out bought a 32" Visio and I wasn't
impressed with its real life performance, though it looked "decent"
in the store. I ended up with the $1300 variety (42" Panasonic 1080p
plasma).

One thing you have to do with the Vizio is adjust the settings. At least
the color. It's over-saturated but that's easy to correct. I didn't even
have to get off the couch for that :)
 
J

Jan Panteltje

No, they picked 8VSB (for over the air, and a different modulation for
cable) because at that time COFDM wasn't developed enough. The US
standard was defined before the European one. This stuff has been
waiting around for ages, (15 years?), and not really going anywhere.

They made it very complex with something like 13 different screen size and
frame rate combinations and the requirement to deal with incoming 1080i
with reformatting for smaller displays for decoders. That's made the
decoders too expensive and made them wait for "Moore's Law" to catch up.
Add that it's not a worldwide market so the volume is lower.

They took so long that there's no US receiver industry left to protect.
And Direct Broadcast Satellite and Cable and the Internet has left the
decentralized broadcast industry with a declining market.

Mark Zenier [email protected]
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

OK, if you say so.
But I also clearly remember the discussions in the related newsgroups at that time,
about the decision, and 8VSB versus COFDM, and an attempt by the BROADCASTERS
to force COFDM and reject 8VSB, some had alreay installed the COFDM transmitters
IIRC.
They lost (against politics).
The broadcaster very well knew 8VSB was asking for problems (multipath able chips
did not even exist at that point).
And it is exactly the development of those chips that had to be done in the US,
as Europe of course also did not have these (we do not need those).
Some related links (from google 'broadcasters 8VSB oppose'
http://www.fcc.gov/Speeches/Kennard/Statements/2000/ltwek001.html
http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&ct=re...3usS22SnBckKRd2vw&sig2=jj_chDBnXfEjXNHPYV_Waw
The Sinclair tests:
http://www.widescreenreview.com/news_exdetail.php?title=crippscomm
---------------------------
Well, I never tried 8VSB, but here COFDM is sold as 'digitenne' a small active vertical indoor antenna,
the black flat thing in this movie:

Transmitters in almost all major cities, from .5 kW to max 40kW
http://home.planet.nl/~ploe2070/fmtv/dvbt/digitenne-kpntv.html

No complaints.
Now try that indoors in a city with 8VSB?
 
J

Joerg

Mark said:
No, they picked 8VSB (for over the air, and a different modulation for
cable) because at that time COFDM wasn't developed enough. The US
standard was defined before the European one. This stuff has been
waiting around for ages, (15 years?), and not really going anywhere.

They made it very complex with something like 13 different screen size and
frame rate combinations and the requirement to deal with incoming 1080i
with reformatting for smaller displays for decoders. That's made the
decoders too expensive and made them wait for "Moore's Law" to catch up.
Add that it's not a worldwide market so the volume is lower.

Actually that format puzzle is quite annoying. Especially during
commercials they happily switch back and forth between them. When the
newscaster returns it's still the old TV format, just digital. No wide
screen out here except for movies (and only some of them).
 
M

Mark

We live in heavy multipath. All I can say so far (after one day) is that
we'll seem to be losing some stations in 2009. What happens is one of these:

a. TV doesn't recognize the DTV channel, data probably too messed up.
b. TV says something like "Receiving data" but that's it.
c. Picture gets blocky or stops at times. IOW not very useful.

Some work well and there I have to say it's nice. There are clearly
disadvantages when picture content changes rapidly but heck, there is no
free lunch. Shannon said it more scientifically though. Most of the time
the DTV picture is really nice (for channels where it works).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Joerg,
1) where do you live with heavy multi-path.?

2) what receiver are you using, Do you know what generation design it
is?

3) What kind of antenna are you using, indoor or outdoor etc

4) Do you by chance have a spectrum anlyzer and can look at the RF
signal?


Multipath is THE major problem with digital TV.

Mark
 
J

Joerg

Mark said:
Joerg,
1) where do you live with heavy multi-path.?

In Cameron Park, about 35 miles east of Sacramento, towards Lake Tahoe.

2) what receiver are you using, Do you know what generation design it
is?

It's the latest version Vizio 37", VX37L.

3) What kind of antenna are you using, indoor or outdoor etc

A rather huge log-periodic on a mast.

4) Do you by chance have a spectrum anlyzer and can look at the RF
signal?

It looks ugly. Lots of signal strength but lots of selective fading that
already happens when a freighter lines up for final into Mather Field.
Fedex, Lufthansa Cargo, UPS, you name it. It's a major hub by now, used
to be a military base.
Multipath is THE major problem with digital TV.

We have a clear shot through a narrow Hwy 50 gap but it is so small that
echoes from that ridge already come back in.
 
J

Jim Thompson

In Cameron Park, about 35 miles east of Sacramento, towards Lake Tahoe.



It's the latest version Vizio 37", VX37L.



A rather huge log-periodic on a mast.



It looks ugly. Lots of signal strength but lots of selective fading that
already happens when a freighter lines up for final into Mather Field.
Fedex, Lufthansa Cargo, UPS, you name it. It's a major hub by now, used
to be a military base.


We have a clear shot through a narrow Hwy 50 gap but it is so small that
echoes from that ridge already come back in.

When faced with UHF problems as you describe, when I lived in North
Scottsdale, I rolled my own helical, because lots of "fading" (at
least in AZ) was just wandering polarization from the heat.

...Jim Thompson
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

When faced with UHF problems as you describe, when I lived in North
Scottsdale, I rolled my own helical, because lots of "fading" (at
least in AZ) was just wandering polarization from the heat.

...Jim Thompson


I think he would be far better off with a more directional solution
 
J

Joerg

Jim said:
When faced with UHF problems as you describe, when I lived in North
Scottsdale, I rolled my own helical, because lots of "fading" (at
least in AZ) was just wandering polarization from the heat.

Good idea. And yes, I think much of the multipath comes back
polarization-twisted.
 
J

Joerg

ChairmanOfTheBored said:
I think he would be far better off with a more directional solution


Well, t'is already the biggest honking ChannelMaster antenna there was.
Not the cheap stuff.
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Joerg said:
A rather huge log-periodic on a mast.

Bingo. Are you *SURE* it's really a log periodic antenna or some
kludge that only looks like one? Duz it look like one of these?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log-periodic_antenna>
I modeled a few of the Radio Shock TV antennas with 4NEC2 to see what
they were doing. The results were awful. On some channels, it had
more gain out the back of the antenna than in the forward direction.
Impedance matching was awful and varied wildly across the frequency
range. Side lobes were all over the place. There were nulls in the
forward direction on some channels.

Under ideal conditions, a real log periodic has a forward gain of only
5 to 7dBi. Howver, that's about 6dBi across the entire frequency
range which is the point of such a broadband antenna. Having such a
low gain, it also has a rather wide forward beamwidth. My guess is
30-50 degrees at -3dB points horizontally. That's NOT what you want
if you want to avoid multipath.

I live in the Santa Cruz mountains. Before I gave up and went with
DirecTV satellite TV, I used a mast, rotator, and tangle of antennas
on the roof. Multipath from the nearby mountains was a serious
problem with Radio Shack antennas. Even the one station that was line
of sight had reflection problems.

So, I started to play with antennas. My first solution was a simple
bow tie antenna with a flat barbeque grill reflector. That worked
very well for UHF, but was too small for the VHF channels. It's main
advantage was that it was very broadband, few side lobes, and
excellent f/b. However, it didn't have much gain (about 4dBi).

Looking for something better, I decided that single channel yagi
antennas were the only way. The commerical versions are:
<http://www.blondertongue.com/media/pdfs/catalog_classes/reception/bty.pdf>
However, I built my own. I had 4 different dipoles, pointed at the 4
transmitter locations. Gain was about 10dBi for VHF and 12dBi for
UHF, a substantial improvement over broadband antennas. Each antenna
had a really ugly homemade Dual Gate MOS FET RF amplifier at roof
level, with a combiner feeding the TV. I removed the rotator as it
was un-necessary with one antenna per transmitter/channel. Fine
aiming required a 20ft fiber glass pole to bang on the boom in one
direction or other.

The results were a dramatic improvement in reception signal strength
and quality. There were still a few ghosts visible but nothing as
horrible as with previous antennas. I was happy for about a year,
when a large fir tree branch managed to mangle 3 out of 4 antennas. As
I was recovering from surgery at the time, and was in no condition to
do anything major, I ordered DirecTV and gave up.
It looks ugly. Lots of signal strength but lots of selective fading that
already happens when a freighter lines up for final into Mather Field.
Fedex, Lufthansa Cargo, UPS, you name it. It's a major hub by now, used
to be a military base.

That's "frequency selective fading" and tends to be difficult to fix
unless you have a very very very narrow front beamwidth with no side
lobes and no ground bounce. If you have the possibility of
reflections from behind, also good f/b ratio. If these are difficult,
you might want to consider dual diversity antennas (about 10
wavelengths apart), with dual tuners and a diversity switch. If the
signal level to one antenna falls due to frequency selective fading,
the odds are good that the other antenna will still have a usable
signal.

Nope. Politics is the major problem. If the FCC would have approved
European COFDM modulation instead of crappy 8VSB, we would not have as
many multipath problem.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8VSB#8VSB_vs_COFDM>
The FCC has several chances to listen to sane technical comparisons,
but elected to follow the path paved by the US patent owners.
We have a clear shot through a narrow Hwy 50 gap but it is so small that
echoes from that ridge already come back in.

That's going to be very difficult to reduce multipath if both the
incident and reflected signals are coming from so close a direction.
Diversity reception might be the only workable band-aid. However, in
my limited experience with such multipath, that doesn't happen as much
as one would think. The reflected path ghost delay is usually so
small, that it's only visible as a slight smear to the right. The
reflections that generate the really visible ghosts, usually come from
the back, and sometimes from the sides. A good antenna pattern will
eliminate those.
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

Well, t'is already the biggest honking ChannelMaster antenna there was.
Not the cheap stuff.


Maybe you should try turning it then.

Perhaps it has so many damned element that you are contributing to your
own perceived problem.

Mine worked fine from indoors set top, and I was over 40 miles East
from the transmitters, and down in a valley from them.

Funny thing was, from there, I only needed to point in one direction to
get all the stations. From just 12 miles both North and East from them,
I had to point in several directions dependent on what direction whatever
particular station was in from where I was. Now, I am 40 miles North of
them at sea level, and still have several vectors needed. Most all are
Southerly, however.

They are in San Diego. I was in Santee for years with no problem and
great signal. In Clairemont (an SD suburb), and now in Oceanside, I have
to move the antenna around a lot more. Perhaps what HD tuners need is
true diversity, where there are like four tuners inside, and four
antennas, and the signal is garnered from them all to compile a complete
data stream. It sounds like overkill, but diversity really does work.
That's what they use at all the NASCAR race tracks, and at Indy.

Diversity receivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_scheme
 
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