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How does digital TV broadcast prevent ghosting effects?

J

Jan Panteltje

Jan Panteltje wrote:



And against Germans, too?


Wasn't it at the times of Pompidou ?


SECAM was entirely bought by the USSR, including the schematics and the
valves for the TV sets. NTSC was considered also (that was during the
warming in relations of USSR and US (Sojuz - Apollo and such) ; SECAM
was preferred for the number of technical and political reasons.


SECAM can tolerate the poor quality channels, NTSC can't. The tuning
tolerances are much wider with SECAM, the delay lines do not have to be
very accurate. That used to be very important considerations at that
time. Phase distortions kill the NTSC. However in ideal conditions the
NTSC picture quality is better.

I can understand why the robustness was critical to Russians, but why
French did bother about at first time?

It had to be different from NTSC, and PAL did not exist yet.
Yet SECAM was horrible on a BW set (bad BW compatibility), later BW sets
had a special filter to get rid of the subcarrier that caused all sorts
of bad patterns on colored edges.
 
J

Jan Panteltje

I was told that they had a nickname for the older Radugas in East
Germany (when it was communist): "Zimmerbrand aus Freundesland". Loosely
translated "apartment fire delivered by an ally". IIRC they kept using a
really old stabilizing technology in the H-scan final: The ballast tube.
All the energy not used by the CRT was converted to heat so that the
stage load remained constant. Then, one fine day, phssst ... whoosh ...


The ballast tube (PD500) was used extensively also in PAL sets,
until the fist transistor sets came.
It was a great Röntgen source too (picture on the left).
http://www.akh.se/tubes/specials.htm
It was mounted in a special metal screened box to prevent radiation.
the glass got all blueish colored after some use.
 
J

Joerg

Jan said:
The ballast tube (PD500) was used extensively also in PAL sets,
until the fist transistor sets came.


Only very old ones. Most of the sets I parted out as a kid did not have
a ballast tube. The ones that did were too heavy to carry on my bicycle.
 
J

Joerg

Mark said:
the new receivers can adapt to multipath out to 50uS or so..

It actually does. Some stations have echoes that far out and their
digital channel comes through just fine. Until echoes become stronger
than the direct path and this flips back and forth a lot. Then the DTV
channels become blocky and freeze up while the analog just syncs onto
the reflected signal and keeps humming.

but they still have trouble when the mutipath is as strong as the
direct signal, and they still have some trouble when the multipath
changes with time i.e. dynamic multipath. The equalizer is adaptive
but it takes time to adapt. It sounds like your situation with the
aircraft in line with your antenna is a bad dynamic multipath
situation. You should contact the demod design companies and the FCC
and offer to them to use your location as a test site..

Well, if they weren't interested in testing out here before writingh the
standard they'll probably be even less interested now.

Sorry I don't have any helpful suggestions, get the receiver with the
best adaptive equlaizer and put up the best antenna you can.

Yes, I will play with the antenna some more when I have time (meaning
the honey-do list is worked down...).
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Only very old ones. Most of the sets I parted out as a kid did not have
a ballast tube. The ones that did were too heavy to carry on my bicycle.


Well 'OLD' I dunno how old you are.
in the Netherlands color TV started in 1967, and the first sets you could buy
was the Philips K6 chassis,
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/philips_chassis_k6k.html
I must have serviced a thousand of those.
Parallel PD500 stabiliser.
Of course I had one myself (was one of the first with color TV).
Actually I put that one together myself.
BW TV's did not have the ballast, the ballast stabilisation was needed
to keep color convergence within spec.

I had some East German made sets too.
Only in 1973 or so came the first 100% transistor Philips KTV, the K9.
Serviced a thousand or so of those too.
 
J

Jim Thompson

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:02:47 -0800, Joerg

[snip]
Yes, I will play with the antenna some more when I have time (meaning
the honey-do list is worked down...).

How much does cable cost in your area? Think on the positive side...
no ugly antenna on the roof ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

It's a bit different. Echoes coming off slopes far behind us, hitting
the 747 at 800ft or so 1-3 miles out front and then that bounces back
into the antenna together with the direct signal.

If it's coming from the back, then an antenna with a better front to
back ratio should help. As long is the reflections are not coming
from the forward direction, F/B and side lobe reduction should
drastically reduce the ghosts. Have you considered positioning the
antenna so that the back end faces a wall or creating an obstruction
to the rear?
I've looked at the cerration pulses because they are nice and crisp
under normal reception condition. And oh boy do they squirm when that
747 glides in. Sometimes I thought I could actually guess the approach
speed sitting there at the scope.

Ugh. That's bad.
Heck, we did this stuff back at the university and that was a long time
before those kinds of patents. So if I'd dig a lot I'd probably find
prior art. However, the TV industry remained blissfully not interested.
That was in Europe and then the TV manufacturers keeled over one after
the other. Why was I not surprised about that?

Ummm, the subject suggested that you wanted to know how digital
broadcast TV prevents ghosting. The patents offer a clue. I'm not a
TV expert, but I suspect there are some tuners that already have some
form of patented ghost suppression included. It's too obvious and
common a problem to ignore.

Need yet another project? Build an RF ghost generator. Take a power
divider and split the TV signal from a video modulated RF signal
source. Run one leg through an adjustable delay line and attenuator.
The other leg does direct. Recombine the two legs with a combiner,
and feed it to the TV. See how well your TV does on removing the
ghost. Try it on other TV's and compare results. My crystal ball
suggests that there's going to be wide variations in quality.
 
R

Rich Grise

Jim said:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:29:45 GMT, Joerg
[snip]
I was told that they had a nickname for the older Radugas in East
Germany (when it was communist): "Zimmerbrand aus Freundesland". Loosely
translated "apartment fire delivered by an ally". IIRC they kept using a
really old stabilizing technology in the H-scan final: The ballast tube.
All the energy not used by the CRT was converted to heat so that the
stage load remained constant. Then, one fine day, phssst ... whoosh ...

I remember that circuit ;-)

IIRC, Mad Man Muntz also used that in his designs.

My father had a policy... "We don't service Muntz TV sets".

They sure were bone simple:
http://www.earlytelevision.org/muntz_17a3a.html

In Germany I staunchly refused to repair Kuba sets (just a name, they
had nothing to do with Fidel and his country). Later I refused to repair
any TV since their designs became so flimsy.

I don't do TVs, but video game monitors weren't too bad in the 1980s. :)

These days, it's cheaper to buy a new monitor.

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

Joerg

Jan said:
Well 'OLD' I dunno how old you are.
in the Netherlands color TV started in 1967, and the first sets you could buy
was the Philips K6 chassis,
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/philips_chassis_k6k.html


Yeah, those are old. In college in the 80's I had a Philips that I
picked up from the scrap heap and repaired it. They must have bought a
screw factory, it had so many screws. Partly transistorized but PL509
H-final, no PD500. It was a fairly compact unit but got quite hot.

I must have serviced a thousand of those.
Parallel PD500 stabiliser.
Of course I had one myself (was one of the first with color TV).
Actually I put that one together myself.
BW TV's did not have the ballast, the ballast stabilisation was needed
to keep color convergence within spec.

I had some East German made sets too.
Only in 1973 or so came the first 100% transistor Philips KTV, the K9.
Serviced a thousand or so of those too.

Then came the glorious idea of using SCRs and those could die like the
flies. At some point I just didn't want to repair those anymore. Unless
someone dangled a crate of Grolsch in front of my nose ...
 
J

Joerg

Jim said:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:02:47 -0800, Joerg

[snip]
Yes, I will play with the antenna some more when I have time (meaning
the honey-do list is worked down...).

How much does cable cost in your area? Think on the positive side...
no ugly antenna on the roof ;-)

People without the fancy movie and sports add-on packages pay around $45
AFAIK. Supposed to go up a lot in January. Well, they have them over the
barrel. So...

It's not the money, I just don't like that concept of being had over the
barrel.
 
J

Joerg

Jeff said:
If it's coming from the back, then an antenna with a better front to
back ratio should help. As long is the reflections are not coming
from the forward direction, F/B and side lobe reduction should
drastically reduce the ghosts. Have you considered positioning the
antenna so that the back end faces a wall or creating an obstruction
to the rear?

I'd need a reflector 3-5 miles across because it's not the echoes into
the back of the antenna. It's already bounced echos onto an aircraft and
doing a 2nd bounce smack dab into the front of the antenna.

Ugh. That's bad.

Yup, sure is.

Ummm, the subject suggested that you wanted to know how digital
broadcast TV prevents ghosting. The patents offer a clue. I'm not a
TV expert, but I suspect there are some tuners that already have some
form of patented ghost suppression included. It's too obvious and
common a problem to ignore.

The OP wanted to know, not me. I just want things to work :)

Need yet another project? Build an RF ghost generator. Take a power
divider and split the TV signal from a video modulated RF signal
source. Run one leg through an adjustable delay line and attenuator.
The other leg does direct. Recombine the two legs with a combiner,
and feed it to the TV. See how well your TV does on removing the
ghost. Try it on other TV's and compare results. My crystal ball
suggests that there's going to be wide variations in quality.

In analog it does a pretty great job, compared to a tube set. In
digital, too. The problems arise when ghosts begin to do a rain dance.

I actually did one of those tests because it was easy: Unplugged all
terminators from the head-amp feedback node. That usually creates a fine
but distinct shadow. Not on this new set.
 
J

Jamie

Joerg said:
Jim said:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:02:47 -0800, Joerg

[snip]
Yes, I will play with the antenna some more when I have time (meaning
the honey-do list is worked down...).


How much does cable cost in your area? Think on the positive side...
no ugly antenna on the roof ;-)

People without the fancy movie and sports add-on packages pay around $45
AFAIK. Supposed to go up a lot in January. Well, they have them over the
barrel. So...

It's not the money, I just don't like that concept of being had over the
barrel.
I no longer have kids living at home, I have no mortgage, I have no
car payments. I won't go into my yearly salary but I will say that I
could live easy on 1/4 of it. Having said that, I refuse to pay any
premium prices for cable or sat programming that is so non interesting
lately that I would rather go with out. The only reason I have cable now
other than the internet which I enjoy is due to my wife..
I would be happy with an antenna for TV because there's nothing worth
watching to warrant cable/sat. We have 2 local movie houses that gives
me the option at any time to enjoy my self and pay for a service only
when I desire it. Other than that, I may stop at block buster and pick
up a DVD now and then.

If you ask me, I think the time has come when we'll start seeing a
bottle neck. The economy is so bad that the majority can not afford
having all these luxuries they are trying to push on us.. So, with all
the corporate greed going on, something has to give..
 
J

Joerg

Jamie said:
Joerg said:
Jim said:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:02:47 -0800, Joerg

[snip]

Yes, I will play with the antenna some more when I have time
(meaning the honey-do list is worked down...).


How much does cable cost in your area? Think on the positive side...
no ugly antenna on the roof ;-)

People without the fancy movie and sports add-on packages pay around
$45 AFAIK. Supposed to go up a lot in January. Well, they have them
over the barrel. So...

It's not the money, I just don't like that concept of being had over
the barrel.
I no longer have kids living at home, I have no mortgage, I have no
car payments. I won't go into my yearly salary but I will say that I
could live easy on 1/4 of it. Having said that, I refuse to pay any
premium prices for cable or sat programming that is so non interesting
lately that I would rather go with out. The only reason I have cable now
other than the internet which I enjoy is due to my wife..


Same here, except that my wife agrees that cable ain't worth it. If,
however, we wouldn't be able to watch "Dancing with the Stars" in 2009
that can all change in a millisecond.

I would be happy with an antenna for TV because there's nothing worth
watching to warrant cable/sat. We have 2 local movie houses that gives
me the option at any time to enjoy my self and pay for a service only
when I desire it. Other than that, I may stop at block buster and pick
up a DVD now and then.

Renting, yes, we do that occasionally. Or buy a DVD if it's something
we'd watch repeatedly. Our movie theater has become digital and that
"new and improved" screen looks way too pixely for me. So we don't go
anymore. I'd rather take my wife to the Thai restaurant.

If you ask me, I think the time has come when we'll start seeing a
bottle neck. The economy is so bad that the majority can not afford
having all these luxuries they are trying to push on us.. So, with all
the corporate greed going on, something has to give..

Strange thing is, the people who can least afford it buy new cars, TVs,
furniture and so on all the time. No matter how the economy or how safe
their jobs. Then at older age their credit cards explode. Sometimes that
even happens at a younger age.
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Joerg said:
The OP wanted to know, not me. I just want things to work :)

Oops(tm). I thought it was your question and problem. The OP was Ted
Williams, who hasn't posted anything after the original question.
Grumble.
I actually did one of those tests because it was easy: Unplugged all
terminators from the head-amp feedback node. That usually creates a fine
but distinct shadow. Not on this new set.

Yep. That's even easier. However, it doesn't give you much control
over the amplitude and delay of the ghosts.

Anyway, as you were. Ghost Busters will take care of the problem.
 
J

Jan Panteltje

Yeah, those are old. In college in the 80's I had a Philips that I
picked up from the scrap heap and repaired it. They must have bought a
screw factory, it had so many screws. Partly transistorized but PL509
H-final, no PD500. It was a fairly compact unit but got quite hot.


Yes, in the 1980 - 1984 or so, I used to buy trade in sets like the K6, K9, etc,
refurbish those, and sell for a couple of hundred guilders.
Very 'green' too (hey an other first) ;-) ) 'recycling', except that the K6
drew several hundred Watt.
Then came the glorious idea of using SCRs and those could die like the
flies.

Some sets had SRCs in the deflection (2 turning each other off) Blaupunkt? Nordmende?,
not sure.
In one of those somebody did not do the math right, the transformers were wound with
litze wire to reduce losses, but got freaking hot anyways.

At some point I just didn't want to repair those anymore. Unless
someone dangled a crate of Grolsch in front of my nose ...

Those SCRs indeed was a common fault on those.

Sony had the KV1810 or something like that, it used silicon controlled switches.
Their soldering process sucked, and due to bad contacts the switches
would sometimes not switch off, both in supply and deflection, BOOM.
And smoke.

One TV was not like the other, clearly some manufacturers went to great trouble
to make a great set, and did, some models of some manufacturers were perhaps
made by the newcomers in the company.... And there was the cost factor too.
Philips with K12 did make a real good set, but it was too expensive (they told me),
the K40 was the other side, to be precise: the cheap side.
The K12 had black current stabilisation in the CRT driver, the K40 did have a lot of things NOT.
It all sort of worked though.
 
J

Joerg

Jan said:
Yes, in the 1980 - 1984 or so, I used to buy trade in sets like the K6, K9, etc,
refurbish those, and sell for a couple of hundred guilders.
Very 'green' too (hey an other first) ;-) ) 'recycling', except that the K6
drew several hundred Watt.

Hey, I was holier than thou :)

I just gave the repaired ones away. To families who had a really hard
time, asylum seekers and so on. In contrast to them we had it so good.
Where they came from those people were often shot at, very sad.

OK, sometimes when I repaired one for an owner I got a reward. Like that
proverbial crate of Grolsch. Not so holy I guess ...

Some sets had SRCs in the deflection (2 turning each other off) Blaupunkt? Nordmende?,
not sure.
In one of those somebody did not do the math right, the transformers were wound with
litze wire to reduce losses, but got freaking hot anyways.

I guess they rushed it to market without much testing. Thou shalt not do
that.
Those SCRs indeed was a common fault on those.

Sony had the KV1810 or something like that, it used silicon controlled switches.
Their soldering process sucked, and due to bad contacts the switches
would sometimes not switch off, both in supply and deflection, BOOM.
And smoke.

Sony made one that was mostly sold as a monitor (without tuner). Nice
wood enclosure and almost indestructible.
 
J

Joerg

Jeff said:
Oops(tm). I thought it was your question and problem. The OP was Ted
Williams, who hasn't posted anything after the original question.
Grumble.


Yep. That's even easier. However, it doesn't give you much control
over the amplitude and delay of the ghosts.

Anyway, as you were. Ghost Busters will take care of the problem.

And then there is always the evening with good friends. Jim Beam, Jose
Cuervo ...
 
M

Mark Zenier

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:02:47 -0800, Joerg

[snip]
Yes, I will play with the antenna some more when I have time (meaning
the honey-do list is worked down...).

How much does cable cost in your area? Think on the positive side...
no ugly antenna on the roof ;-)

I did a an area search, <http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html>,
for 200 km around the lat/long of the Placerville, CA airport as a
best guess to see what Joerg could pick up digitally. The only
non UHF digital channel is Telemundo in San Jose (12) and I think
that's Spanish Language.

UHF antennas are pretty discrete. Unless they still make those 8 foot
parabola deep fringe jobs.

Mark Zenier [email protected]
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
 
K

krw

To-Email- said:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:29:45 GMT, Joerg

[snip]
I was told that they had a nickname for the older Radugas in East
Germany (when it was communist): "Zimmerbrand aus Freundesland". Loosely
translated "apartment fire delivered by an ally". IIRC they kept using a
really old stabilizing technology in the H-scan final: The ballast tube.
All the energy not used by the CRT was converted to heat so that the
stage load remained constant. Then, one fine day, phssst ... whoosh ...

I remember that circuit ;-)

IIRC, Mad Man Muntz also used that in his designs.

My father had a policy... "We don't service Muntz TV sets".

I thought that was "We can't service Muntz TV sets. No one can".
 
J

Jim Thompson

To-Email- said:
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:29:45 GMT, Joerg

[snip]
I was told that they had a nickname for the older Radugas in East
Germany (when it was communist): "Zimmerbrand aus Freundesland". Loosely
translated "apartment fire delivered by an ally". IIRC they kept using a
really old stabilizing technology in the H-scan final: The ballast tube.
All the energy not used by the CRT was converted to heat so that the
stage load remained constant. Then, one fine day, phssst ... whoosh ...

I remember that circuit ;-)

IIRC, Mad Man Muntz also used that in his designs.

My father had a policy... "We don't service Muntz TV sets".

I thought that was "We can't service Muntz TV sets. No one can".

Muntz' "designs" required tubes that were dead-on specification to
function properly.

...Jim Thompson
 
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