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CNN article on 50 best jobs -- #1 is software

R

Rich Grise, but drunk

Likewise FOX from what I have seen.
[snip]

Didn't you hear that Fox is "fair and balanced" ?:)

I used to watch FOX news in the morning because Jillian Barberie is hot,
but they've started playing that "rap" noise for background filler, so
it's pretty obvious what demographic they're targeting. And I hate rap
even more than I hate opera, but I hated opera first. ;-)

Thanks!
Rich
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-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GAT(E P) dpu s: a++ C++@ P+ L++>+ !E W+ N++ o? K? w-- !O !M !V PS+++
PE Y+ PGP- t 5+++)-; X- R- tv+ b+ DI++++>+ D-? G e+$ h+ r-- z+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
 
J

Jim Stewart

John said:
"Engineer" rates #17, below chiropractor and physician assistant and
technical writer.

Imagine hacking code, rubbing backs, or editing manuals 40 hours a
week for the rest of your working life. That would be like joining the
Living Dead to me.

The best thing about occasionally programming an embedded app is that
I know it will soon be over, and I can get back to real engineering.
I'd sink into despair if I knew that, after this one was done, there
was an infinite train of additional programming tasks lined up...

The "best job" is the one you enjoy doing and pays
well enough to support yourself and your family.

I've known people who thought driving a truck was
the best job in the world. My father was a trainman
and throughly enjoyed it most of the time.

The real problem is not finding the "best job". Most
of us Old Farts have already made good choices and
are reasonably secure and happy. The problem is the
current crop of kids struggling to get through
college and then trying to figure out how to buy a
$500,000 house on entry position wages.
 
N

nappy

Rich Grise said:
CNN is 99% bullshit and 1% news.

Likewise FOX from what I have seen.
[snip]

Didn't you hear that Fox is "fair and balanced" ?:)

I used to watch FOX news in the morning because Jillian Barberie is hot,
but they've started playing that "rap" noise for background filler, so
it's pretty obvious what demographic they're targeting. And I hate rap
even more than I hate opera, but I hated opera first. ;-)
That's FOX11LA. Jillian is a miserable nutcase. Sometimes she looks hot but
she's unbalanced and .. goofy.
 
J

Jim Thompson

[snip]
The "best job" is the one you enjoy doing and pays
well enough to support yourself and your family.

Absolutely!

I've known people who thought driving a truck was
the best job in the world. My father was a trainman
and throughly enjoyed it most of the time.

The real problem is not finding the "best job". Most
of us Old Farts have already made good choices and
are reasonably secure and happy. The problem is the
current crop of kids struggling to get through
college and then trying to figure out how to buy a
$500,000 house on entry position wages.

Just learn how nice it is to live somewhere other than in the middle
of a major metropolitan center. Then nice big houses on nice big lots
can be had for $150K ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
R

Roberto Waltman

Jim Thompson wrote:
Chris said:
Didn't you hear that Fox is "fair and balanced" ?:)

Sorry to be nit-picking, but you are misspelling it.
It is not "FOX", but "FAUX", "Faux News", etc.
 
J

John Larkin

I would rate at least half of those tasks as less interesting
than embedded programming.


Well, some parts can get tedious, depending on your preferences, but
the only ones that really annoy me are parts lists and test
procedures.
None of them would be possible without the
program.

Actually, some interesting things can be done in FPGAs alone these
days, without procedural programming. Interesting and stunningly fast.
That's one of the options a design engineer can consider.

But if all you do is program, you have no say about the other things.
Indeed, you have no say about the program itself, except the
implementation details.

And most anybody can do embedded programming... it's sort of routine.

John
 
L

larwe

Teece said:
What is the title of the book that you wrote? I am interested.

It's currently catalogued as "So, You Wanna Be An Embedded Engineer"
based on the quarter-in-advance pre-shipping EDI stuff that went to
amazon.com et al.

Read the blurb,
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0750679530/zws-20>

(be advised I didn't write this description but it's factually correct
if rather more effusive than I would have written myself :)).
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

<snip>
Actually, some interesting things can be done in FPGAs alone these
days, without procedural programming. Interesting and stunningly fast.
That's one of the options a design engineer can consider.

But if all you do is program, you have no say about the other things.
Indeed, you have no say about the program itself, except the
implementation details.

You are making the important argument for why I think that embedded
programmers need to have at least some passing understanding of
electronics, as well as mathematics, as well as numerical methods, as
well as signal processing, as well as sensor and transducer physics,
as well as....

In order for someone who's more primary responsibility is writing
embedded code for what is otherwise just an electronic device to an
end-user, they must be able to accept specifications from physicists,
electronics designers, etc. and to be able to understand the deeper
intents. A physicist is not going to fathom well the numerical
details of floating point, nor really care that much about the exact
implementation details of his or her equations. But the programmer
must be able to accurately reflect them in the resulting code. An
electronics designer needs to be able to pass along a schematic and
expect that the embedded programmer can navigate it with reasonable
proficiency, as well as understand other specifications. Details
about the physical model of transducers often are reflected back into
details of software design to cope properly with them. And it is the
embedded programmer which has to take in all this information and is
often the last step in fusing all of this information into a final
product that works as expected. They are at the center of this
integration step and it takes a fair degree of knowledge to keep
things from "falling through the cracks."

Often enough, this job falls upon an electronics designer. But it
doesn't have to, if the embedded programmer has broad enough knowledge
and experience.

I am not a designer, I'm an embedded programmer. But I continually
study sensor physics, mathematics, signal processing and closed loop
control methods, optics, and electronics, as well as the usual
material associated with the core programming skills or required for
current projects at hand. It's part of what keeps things interesting.
And most anybody can do embedded programming... it's sort of routine.

Much of it is, for an electronics designer. There are facets of it
that may not be, but are easier for someone with broader experience in
programming. For example, I can whip up a very fast multi-process
operating system, with inter-process messaging, sleep and run queues,
dead accurate delta-timing queues, etc., customized to the application
in just a matter of hours. I just had to do this, recently, in fact.
Not all electronics designers will have that experience to rely upon.

One uses what tools they know. "To a man with a chainsaw, everything
looks like a tree." If you only know some programming skills, you
will apply them to every project ahead of you and you won't even know
what other tools might exist to improve the project. Someone who
specializes on the embedded side, but with good familiarity on all the
same issues that an electronics designer must cope with (however, with
a different emphasis), can apply a broader range of tools to the trade
and, in some cases, help make a better overall product working as part
of a team.

There remains a lot of creativity available on the programming side,
but I think the real fun comes in always finding new ways to stretch
yourself. In my case, it's learning about what surrounds embedded
programming work. And that's not so routine.

Jon
 
J

John Larkin

You are making the important argument for why I think that embedded
programmers need to have at least some passing understanding of
electronics, as well as mathematics, as well as numerical methods, as
well as signal processing, as well as sensor and transducer physics,
as well as....

Right. The more narrowly you define your function, the less control
and creative influence you have. If you like that, fine. Some people
like to add layers of abstraction to further restrict their range of
vision.

In order for someone who's more primary responsibility is writing
embedded code for what is otherwise just an electronic device to an
end-user, they must be able to accept specifications from physicists,
electronics designers, etc. and to be able to understand the deeper
intents. A physicist is not going to fathom well the numerical
details of floating point, nor really care that much about the exact
implementation details of his or her equations. But the programmer
must be able to accurately reflect them in the resulting code. An
electronics designer needs to be able to pass along a schematic and
expect that the embedded programmer can navigate it with reasonable
proficiency, as well as understand other specifications. Details
about the physical model of transducers often are reflected back into
details of software design to cope properly with them. And it is the
embedded programmer which has to take in all this information and is
often the last step in fusing all of this information into a final
product that works as expected. They are at the center of this
integration step and it takes a fair degree of knowledge to keep
things from "falling through the cracks."

Often enough, this job falls upon an electronics designer. But it
doesn't have to, if the embedded programmer has broad enough knowledge
and experience.

I am not a designer, I'm an embedded programmer. But I continually
study sensor physics, mathematics, signal processing and closed loop
control methods, optics, and electronics, as well as the usual
material associated with the core programming skills or required for
current projects at hand. It's part of what keeps things interesting.

Agreed. I think it's fun to research the application's science or
construction or cooling or whatever, and it certainly makes for better
hardware and software designs. This is "engineering" in the broad
sense, understanding and solving the true problem, not just grunting
out a box in compliance with some requirements document.
Much of it is, for an electronics designer. There are facets of it
that may not be, but are easier for someone with broader experience in
programming. For example, I can whip up a very fast multi-process
operating system, with inter-process messaging, sleep and run queues,
dead accurate delta-timing queues, etc., customized to the application
in just a matter of hours. I just had to do this, recently, in fact.
Not all electronics designers will have that experience to rely upon.

Yeah, we just run dumb little state machines.
One uses what tools they know. "To a man with a chainsaw, everything
looks like a tree." If you only know some programming skills, you
will apply them to every project ahead of you and you won't even know
what other tools might exist to improve the project. Someone who
specializes on the embedded side, but with good familiarity on all the
same issues that an electronics designer must cope with (however, with
a different emphasis), can apply a broader range of tools to the trade
and, in some cases, help make a better overall product working as part
of a team.

There remains a lot of creativity available on the programming side,
but I think the real fun comes in always finding new ways to stretch
yourself. In my case, it's learning about what surrounds embedded
programming work. And that's not so routine.


And if you do that well enough, we'll call you an "engineer."

John
 
N

nappy

Roberto Waltman said:
Jim Thompson wrote:


Sorry to be nit-picking, but you are misspelling it.
It is not "FOX", but "FAUX", "Faux News", etc.

how trendy.
 
D

dungaree

John Larkin said:
Discovering a unfilled need; contacting potential users and getting
their opinions on what they'd like; researching the competition;
researching the literature for theory and techniques; researching and
testing available parts; conceiving/brainstorming a hardware/software
architecture; writing the spec sheet and the preliminary manual;
getting user opinions again; design; pcb layout and packaging; fpga
and firmware design; putting it together and making it work; test sets
and test procedures; final datasheets and manuals; press releases and
web pages; tweaks; next project.


The "design" bit is my favorite part.

You "design" maybe 10% of the time,
while Firmware Engineers design an overwhelming
majority of their time. Design is fun whether its
software or hardware.

Bottom line is that hardware designers spend
very little time designing anything.
 
K

Keith

You "design" maybe 10% of the time,
while Firmware Engineers design an overwhelming
majority of their time. Design is fun whether its
software or hardware.

You assume a *lot*. You don't have meetings to go to, bosses to report
to? I've never seen *anyone* doing design an "overwhelming majority of
their time". ...unless you're a droid and consider implementation
"design".
Bottom line is that hardware designers spend very little time designing
anything.

Spoken like a true M$ software "designer".
 
D

dungaree

Keith said:
You assume a *lot*. You don't have meetings to go to, bosses to report
to? I've never seen *anyone* doing design an "overwhelming majority of
their time". ...unless you're a droid and consider implementation
"design".


Spoken like a true M$ software "designer".

Never worked for MS. Don't do windows.
I'm a Firmware Engineer for last ten years
with a hardware background. Worked in
R&D labs for ten years.

Long ago I noted how little "design" BSEE's actually do, and
changed my direction from BSEE to firmware.

I work for a small company with little red tape
to waste my time. I "design" firmware the majority
of my working hours. I've got large backlog of projects to complete.

Another thing I've observed ... one hardware engineer
designing 10% of his time can keep 3-4 firmware engineers
busy fulltime.
 
J

John Larkin

You "design" maybe 10% of the time,

If you mean actually drawing original schematics, that's about right.
while Firmware Engineers design an overwhelming
majority of their time.

If you mean sitting in front of a PC and typing code, I doubt it. Most
programmers spend most of their time debugging, which is hardly
"design." I've heard that numbers like 20/80 coding/debugging is about
the norm, but I suspect that a lot of that "20" is less than original
creativity. Figuring out how to bit-bang a weirdly structured and
badly documented delta-sigma ADC isn't high on the creativity scale,
and they're all weird and badly documented. So most programmers are
likely in the 10% boat too.
Design is fun whether its
software or hardware.

If it's fun for you, then it's fun. I probably spend about as much
time writing embedded code as I spend designing hardware, but I
personally find the hardware part to be exciting and the coding to be
mainly tedious. I hate to debug, so I use methods that require very
little debugging of either.
Bottom line is that hardware designers spend
very little time designing anything.

And somehow manage to design everything.

Racecar drivers spend very little of their time racing, trial lawyers
spend very little of their time in court, and bulls spend very little
of their time making calves.

John
 
J

John Larkin

Another thing I've observed ... one hardware engineer
designing 10% of his time can keep 3-4 firmware engineers
busy fulltime.

Hmmm. I program my own embedded designs. I spend, say, 10% of my time
designing the electronics (actually not far from the truth) and about
another 10%, or probably somewhat less, doing the programming. That
ratio is under 1:1, and your ratio is 30 or 40:1.

Interesting.

John
 
W

Winfield Hill

John Larkin wrote...
... I spend, say, 10% of my time designing the electronics
(actually not far from the truth) and about another 10%,
or probably somewhat less, doing the programming.

And another 10 to 20% hanging out here on s.e.d.? :)
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Jim said:
Likewise FOX from what I have seen.
[snip]

Didn't you hear that Fox is "fair and balanced" ?:)


Its really sad that the best reporter on Fox is Kent Brockman on "The
Simpsons"


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

John said:
Discovering a unfilled need; contacting potential users and getting
their opinions on what they'd like; researching the competition;
researching the literature for theory and techniques; researching and
testing available parts; conceiving/brainstorming a hardware/software
architecture; writing the spec sheet and the preliminary manual;
getting user opinions again; design; pcb layout and packaging; fpga
and firmware design; putting it together and making it work; test sets
and test procedures; final datasheets and manuals; press releases and
web pages; tweaks; next project.

The "design" bit is my favorite part.

John


I agree, John. As Hanibal Smith (George Peppard) used to say on the
"A Team": I love it when a plan comes together!"


http://www.jumptheshark.com/a/ateam.htm


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
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