Maker Pro
Maker Pro

clueless politicians

G

Gordon Richmond

Moosh, if you really believe that narrow tires will get down to "hard
bottom" on a paved road, can I suugest you put you theory to the test
by riding a bicycle at speed into a patch of pea gravel on the
highway?

Get back and report once your skin grows back <G>

Gordon Richmond
 
C

Chris1

You're not really so obtuse that you can't differentiate between deep
sand and 1/2" of sand/gravel washed, blown or spilled onto paved
roads.

The latter is a common occurrence all over the world, so if you have
not experienced it, you have lived a very sheltered life.


Sounds like your roads really suck over there! Do I live a sheltered life
because I live in the US east of the Mississippi? We have lots of this
stuff called "soil", and in it grows a wide variety of plants. This tends
to keep our roads from becoming buried under millions of tons of sand and
debris. But I guess all this soil is just an extravagance of us super rich
capitalists.

Chris
 
T

Tony Wesley

Moosh:] said:
Neither is the case you're making ... 1/2 inch of sand?
Of course, the dune buggies I've seen all have wide tires.

You're not really so obtuse that you can't differentiate between deep
sand and 1/2" of sand/gravel washed, blown or spilled onto paved
roads.

The latter is a common occurrence all over the world, so if you have
not experienced it, you have lived a very sheltered life.

Probably driven about half a million miles, give or take, in three
countries. Admittedly almost all of in the US of A. It's not common
here. Extraordinarily rare.

From the German Gran Prix (Note the size of the tires):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39358000/jpg/_39358133_toyotarace_gi_200x245.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39357000/jpg/_39357943_renaultsrace_ap_300x300.jpg


Here's a graphic that shows the size of the tire:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sol/shared/spl/hi/motorsport/03/formula_one/car/img/tyres.gif
 
M

Moosh:}

Sounds like your roads really suck over there!

Because we occasionally get some sand washed, spilt, or blown on our
roads? Yes, we do have weather :)
Do I live a sheltered life
because I live in the US east of the Mississippi?

I don't know, you are telling the story.
We have lots of this
stuff called "soil", and in it grows a wide variety of plants.

Same here.
This tends
to keep our roads from becoming buried under millions of tons of sand and
debris.

I'm glad to hear it. Where does this catastrophic soil erosion that
you describe happen?
But I guess all this soil is just an extravagance of us super rich
capitalists.

So it's YOU who gets these millions of tons of sand and debris over
your road? You said you'd never heard of it.
 
T

Tony Wesley

Well I've driven similar miles, and almost all intersections will have
a few square yards of lose stuff, spillled from trucks or washed from
verges, or blown by the wind.

If so, you live in very different conditions than what I
believe most of the world sees. Your an Aussie, if I remember
correctly?
Streets are swept every week or so where
I live, for road safety concerns, as ants are very busy in paved and
grassed verges and tend to spill sand over the gutter and it gets
spread by traffic, wind and rain.

Have you never seen street sweepers in action?

Yep. I think they come by once or twice a year. The action of the
cars going on the road sweeps the road. All of the debris ends up
on the shoulder of the road. That's what the sweepers pick up.
So yes, I think you have lived a sheltered life if you are telling the
truth about never having seen this.

Or live in North America. Now, having 1/2 inch of snow on the road
is far more common.
What are those wide grooves cut into the treads?
Sort of makes several thin tyres?
No.

As I've explained previously, this is irrelevant to the suburban road.

The roads you describe are not typical suburban roads in North America
or Europe.
 
C

Chris1

I'm glad to hear it. Where does this catastrophic soil erosion that
you describe happen?
What?


So it's YOU who gets these millions of tons of sand and debris over
your road? You said you'd never heard of it.

No. The plants keep the soil off the road. I've never seen sand or soil
accumulate on our roads without human assistance. How provincial of you to
assume that sand on the roads is a common problem worldwide!

Chris
 
K

K. Jones

Yikes guys.
You've all got *part* of it right.

Define "race tires"......It depends on the type of racing you are doing,
I've done a lot of both
road racing, and more recently drag racing.

Yes, the "stickier" the tire, the better the traction, at the compromise of
mileage. There are lots
and lots of different compounds available to the general public, and you buy
what suits your
driving style and needs best. You always have to compromise if you want an
"all round" daily
tire.

When drag racing, we use very wide, very "sticky" tires, little or no
"groves", a very soft
sidewall, and very low air pressure. (The trick is to use just enough air to
prevent the tire from
spinning on the rim during the launch). Drag slicks are usually "crinkle
walls". Absolute maximum
contact patch, the tire actually gets fatter (it crinkles) when you launch,
as the weight transfers to
the rear of the vehicle. So yes, no treads, as wide as necessary, and as
soft a wall as practical gives
the best traction *in that application*! I sure wouldn't want to try to
corner on them, you'd loose
control in a hurry!
When autocrossing, for example, which is extreme cornering and braking
throughout the course, you
again use a very sticky tire, with a moderate tread, and extremely strong
walls, and high, high, air
pressure in the tires. We actually chalk the sides of the tires, throw it
around the track, and check the
chalk marks for wear, and increase air pressure as necessary. You don't
want the tire wall to "roll"
during cornering or braking, that is as important as how "sticky" a tire, or
wide a tire you run (I run
a soft compound street tire, only slightly wider than stock when on courses
like that).
So for extreme braking and cornering, a wider tire isn't nearly as important
as one with strong
sidewall strength. Again, these aren't that great in the rain.

As I live in Canada, and experience quite a bit of snow during the winter
months, a snow tire
has a very aggressive tread (even more-so than a dedicated rain tire), and a
narrow
"footprint". In this case (and rain as well), you want a narrow tire that
will "cut through" the
snow or the rain, and make contact with the pavement. Using wide tires in
snow, is just asking
to "wallow" on the surface and get stuck in even light snowfalls. Wide
tires in the rain is
just asking to "hydroplane", where the tire "floats" on the thin film of
water, completely removing
any steering ability, and severely compromised braking ability.

So there is no "one answer" as to what kind of tire provides the best
"traction". Drag slicks may
provide the maximum gripping force for a straight launch on a dry track (and
btw, most "race tracks",
drag, and road course have *way*, *way* more crap on them than a normal
road!!! Tons of what
we not so affectionately call "marbles", small pieces of rubber from the
tires everywhere!) but would
have you kissing a guard-rail in a hurry on the highway in the rain. Those
great narrow, large grooved
rain tires that let you fly down the road during a monsoon, would just sit
and spin and fry on drag
track.
Oh, and you never, ever, drag race if the track is even damp. It's
impossible and way, way
dangerous. Cars tend to "launch" sideways with undesirable results.

What do I run on the highway every day to work and back? A stock width,
medium-compound,
rain tread. I don't "overdrive" my tires (space around vehicles, speed) in
dry weather, and the
medium compound allows for some fairly aggressive "emergency" manoeuvres,
and man, do I feel
safe when it rains......

K. Jones
I guess that's 20 cents worth!



Moosh:] said:
Motoring experts. Examine the tires of race cars. Pay special
attention to the rear tires of cars on the drag strip.

Not relevant to cars on normal roads. Drag slicks are heated to almost
melting. The compound is almost like glue, and so the bigger "glue"
area the better. There is no loose material on the track, unless it
rains, and then the tyres are changed to increase the contact
pressure. QED.
 
K

K. Jones

Moosh! Spend much time driving on race tracks? Most have more crap and
"loose bits" on them than any "normal" sububan road! If they don't at the
start, the will within a few laps!

K. Jones
 
M

Mooshie peas

If so, you live in very different conditions than what I
believe most of the world sees. Your an Aussie, if I remember
correctly?

Yes. We have wind, rain, sand carted, sand verges. Just like the rest
of the world and the other country where I've driven a lot.
Yep. I think they come by once or twice a year. The action of the
cars going on the road sweeps the road. All of the debris ends up
on the shoulder of the road. That's what the sweepers pick up.

So no-one drives on this shoulder? No-one needs to brake when they are
on this debris? That's what I'm talking about.
Or live in North America. Now, having 1/2 inch of snow on the road
is far more common.

Very rare here.

Yes. Look again.
The roads you describe are not typical suburban roads in North America
or Europe.

You just said they have debris on the shoulders for six months at a
time. Sheeesh!
 
M

Mooshie peas


Read it again, it will come to you.
No. The plants keep the soil off the road. I've never seen sand or soil
accumulate on our roads without human assistance.

No humans where you live? We have ants too, that bring sand to the
surface near the road enabling the rain to wash it onto the road. (In
patches, of course, not acres upon acres of sand covering hundreds of
miles of road)
How provincial of you to
assume that sand on the roads is a common problem worldwide!

It is, except in the regions where there is no sand or where sand is
not carted, although silt is fairly common, I believe, from my studies
of soil science.
 
T

Tony Wesley

Yes. Look again.

I did look. They are wide tires. Wide tires with tread are not
several thin tires. They're wide tires.
You just said they have debris on the shoulders for six months at a
time. Sheeesh!

Moosh, apparently you just like to hear the clack of your keys.
I don't drive on the shoulder. I drive on the road. You started
way back when with "But for normal driving, small contact is better
able to grip the solid substrate." Since you can't convince anyone
of this point, now it's all loose stuff all over the road.

I plan on driving on the shoulder of the road and doing hard braking
there, I'd go with a narrower tire.
 
K

K. Jones

No Moosh.....you're missing it here. Agreed, not many race tracks have
intersections, nor
pedestrians running across them. (Although in the states they do run some
figure 8
tracks, which is a bit insane).
HOWEVER, on a road course, lots and lots of debris builds up in the corners
in
a very, very, short time period, and yes, they are in thick patches.
However, being
that it IS RACING, the cars are at their ABSOLUTE TRACTION LIMITS, where????
In the corners, where all the marbles are. So yea, way serious traction
concerns on lots
of marbles, when already at the cornering threshold. Ever watch say, stock
racing, and what
happens to cars that get too high in the grove? The loss of control and
sometimes spectacular
crashes? They hit the marbles high on the corners.

Watch drag racers do their burn-out before the pull up to the Christmas
tree? On drag slicks,
yes, they're warming them up and making them stickier, but if you're not
running racing slicks,
warming up any other kind of tire is counter-productive, as they actually
get "slipperier" when
hot. So why do it? Do throw the marbles off the tires that got stuck to
them as you pulled into
the staging lanes. Marbles on your tires will ruin your launch way more
than a little less
stickier tire.


K. Jones
Wearing shades and flame-proof underwear

Mooshie peas said:
Moosh! Spend much time driving on race tracks? Most have more crap and
"loose bits" on them than any "normal" sububan road! If they don't at the
start, the will within a few laps!

K. Jones

So you've beeen sucked in too?
Wide tyres apply much less pressure on the road, and thus are much
more likely to slide over loose surfaces. Slicks on a race track are a
totally different thing. There is nothing there to slide over. Note
how they change tyres when it rains?

Bits of rubber? And you slide over the top of these? They are in thick
patches where you have to come to a sudden halt, like intersections,
and pedestrian crossings?
 
K

K. Jones

Mooshie peas said:
And they don't sweep these betweeen races? And these are where brakes
and acceleration are applied? I'm not particularly a race afficionado

No they don't sweep them between races, or between laps for that matter :)

The marbles are not thrown to the edge? Are they in the track of most
racers?

As your tires wear, you can't corner as tightly, thus you run higher and
higher in
the grove, so what *was* the edge the first dozen laps, becomes the part of
the track where you are running later.

I think you have just made my point, thanks.

I've completely lost what your point was. Mine was that different tires
provide superior traction in different circumstances. What may work great
in one application, may be the worst kind of thing you can do in another
application. Stock tires as supplied by the auto manufacturer are selected
for ride quality, and noise levels, not particularly for performance.
Wider tires with stiffer sidewalls tend to provide superior performance for
normal/performance street use, with a compromise in ride "comfort".
Look at the stock tires supplied on performance "factory" cars like the
newer Corvettes, Formula Firebirds, Dodge Viper, even the Mercury Maurader
for example, they all have fairly wider tires, more aggressive tread
patterns,
and harder sidewalls than on your family sedan......because they provide
superior handling.

To me, your point is only valid for heavy rain, or for snow covered roads.

No offense, but if you find yourself driving on the shoulders, doing serious
swerving, and braking manuvers, on any kind of regular basis, to avoid
collisions with pedestrians, buses, other cars in intersections etc, you
really, really, need to invest in some defensive driving lessions. I've
done
close to 2 million kilometers of hwy/city driving thus far, and can only
remember
maybe a handfull of times I've had to do any serious manuvers to avoid a
collision (and never had an "at fault" accident, though I have been
rear-ended
while stopped, a few times).

Cheers,

K. Jones
 
C

Chris Chiller

Boys! Boys!Take your ritalin and post something.....anything related to Sci
or Energy or( heres a thought) Hydrogen!
It is a shameful thing when grown men descend to the same sort of
arguments we had when in the first blush of puberty....or are you perhaps
considerably younger than you imply in your posts???
I wish you well, and do enjoy substantive posts from you when they
come...
Chris
--
 
M

Mooshie peas

No they don't sweep them between races, or between laps for that matter :)

Funny, I've seen races stopped to clean up crash debris and oil
spills. I must say I've never seen the build up of rubber balls that
you talk of, but then I haven't been to any motor racing for over
thirty years
As your tires wear, you can't corner as tightly,

Why is this? Curious.
thus you run higher and
higher in
the grove, so what *was* the edge the first dozen laps, becomes the part of
the track where you are running later.

I believe you, although I haven't seen it.
I've completely lost what your point was.

That thinner tyres are safer on metro roads. Fatter tyres are just
more comfortable, so they cut wide grooves for safety.
Fats are just a fashion statement.
Mine was that different tires
provide superior traction in different circumstances.

I don't disagree with this.
What may work great
in one application, may be the worst kind of thing you can do in another
application. Stock tires as supplied by the auto manufacturer are selected
for ride quality, and noise levels, not particularly for performance.

Well a compromise between all these factors, as well as price.
Wider tires with stiffer sidewalls tend to provide superior performance for
normal/performance street use, with a compromise in ride "comfort".

Wider tyres will be more comfortable, but will provide less "traction"
on public streets for a variety of reasons that I have metioned many
times. Tyre width is a compromise and includes the falacious factor
of "fashion". Race cars use them, so they will make my car look faster
like the pathetic rear spoilers and "go-fast" stripes.
Look at the stock tires supplied on performance "factory" cars like the
newer Corvettes, Formula Firebirds, Dodge Viper, even the Mercury Maurader
for example, they all have fairly wider tires, more aggressive tread
patterns,
and harder sidewalls than on your family sedan......because they provide
superior handling.

Nope, because they sell. Fashon is the most important thing.
To me, your point is only valid for heavy rain, or for snow covered roads.

Or when there is a layer of sand or gravel where you need to brake
heavily - usually at intersections.
No offense, but if you find yourself driving on the shoulders, doing serious
swerving, and braking manuvers, on any kind of regular basis, to avoid
collisions with pedestrians, buses, other cars in intersections etc, you
really, really, need to invest in some defensive driving lessions.

Regular basis? Where did you imagine this? I said in an emergency,
where you have to brake heavily. I don't recall it ever happening in
my long driving career, but that's what happens usually just before
accidents.
I've
done
close to 2 million kilometers of hwy/city driving thus far, and can only
remember
maybe a handfull of times I've had to do any serious manuvers to avoid a
collision (and never had an "at fault" accident, though I have been
rear-ended
while stopped, a few times).

See above. And I've done a few kliks too :)
 
M

Mooshie peas

Boys! Boys!Take your ritalin and post something.....anything related to Sci
or Energy or( heres a thought) Hydrogen!
It is a shameful thing when grown men descend to the same sort of
arguments we had when in the first blush of puberty....or are you perhaps
considerably younger than you imply in your posts???
I wish you well, and do enjoy substantive posts from you when they
come...

Yes, Mom.... :)
 
M

Michael

I would buy one too, used...

Moosh:] said:
We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Have you any ideas to get manufacturers to make such things, Dan?
I have dispensed with cars (aged 60) and use and enjoy public
transport. But, I would consider buying a small efficient hybrid
diesel if one were available. Sadly, they are not. They wouldn't need
electric windows, and aircon, and all the other luxury junk stuck on a
basic car. I am certain I'm not alone in this.
 
D

Dan Bloomquist

Moosh:] said:
We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.


Have you any ideas to get manufacturers to make such things, Dan?
I have dispensed with cars (aged 60) and use and enjoy public
transport. But, I would consider buying a small efficient hybrid
diesel if one were available. Sadly, they are not. They wouldn't need
electric windows, and aircon, and all the other luxury junk stuck on a
basic car. I am certain I'm not alone in this.

I had this post marked but failed to answer! :)

At the least we can by civics. And I believe if driven sanely, (top
speed 55 and no jack rabbit driving.), they will get you 40 mpg or
better. But most Americans think this unsafe and classless. We have a
'94 Torus that gets me over 30 mpg. A lot of our waste can be attributed
to animalistic driving habits. I'm appalled by the way others drive
whenever we go to Phoenix. For instance, I’ll get 80,000 miles out of a
set of brake pads. I hear some folks can’t get 15,000. I’m not trying to
flaunt some kind of righteousness, but if folks would just get aware,
what a difference it would make.

Best, Dan.
 
S

Sparky

Agreed. Also, small hybrid vehicles have an initial cost which removes the
advantage of running them. There are "smart cars" here in the UK which are
cute and efficient and make environmental sense...yet they are so expensive
that the final amortization of the initial expenditure is thrown many many
years into the future.
The smartest car for economy in the UK at the moment is a third or
fourth-hand nineteen-ninety something Ford Fiesta. Incredibly cheap spares
& tyres, no complications and you can get a spanking good one on the road
with MOT for £500 GBP or even less.
I had a good engine put in one for £40. If you can MIG and have a basic
knowledge of M.V.Mechanics you are laughing.
"Smart" hybrid cars are a great idea though and I'm not knocking them.

Also, "Roll on the fuel cell". It's the answer to the lot.

Sparks.

Michael said:
I would buy one too, used...

Moosh:] said:
We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Have you any ideas to get manufacturers to make such things, Dan?
I have dispensed with cars (aged 60) and use and enjoy public
transport. But, I would consider buying a small efficient hybrid
diesel if one were available. Sadly, they are not. They wouldn't need
electric windows, and aircon, and all the other luxury junk stuck on a
basic car. I am certain I'm not alone in this.
 
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