clueless politicians

[Mooshie peas]

We should be moving toward small hybrid vehicles instead of trying to
power SUVs with hydrogen.

Have you any ideas to get manufacturers to make such things, Dan?
I have dispensed with cars (aged 60) and use and enjoy public
transport. But, I would consider buying a small efficient hybrid
diesel if one were available. Sadly, they are not. They wouldn't need
electric windows, and aircon, and all the other luxury junk stuck on a
basic car. I am certain I'm not alone in this.

I had this post marked but failed to answer!

At the least we can by civics. And I believe if driven sanely, (top
speed 55 and no jack rabbit driving.), they will get you 40 mpg or
better. But most Americans think this unsafe and classless. We have a
'94 Torus that gets me over 30 mpg. A lot of our waste can be attributed
to animalistic driving habits. I'm appalled by the way others drive
whenever we go to Phoenix. For instance, I’ll get 80,000 miles out of a
set of brake pads. I hear some folks can’t get 15,000. I’m not trying to
flaunt some kind of righteousness, but if folks would just get aware,
what a difference it would make.

Best, Dan.

Our level of govt responsible for [make that recipient of] "sales tax"
which has had its name changed to GST, seem to have a vested interest
in road and traffic light design aimed at wearing out the average car
in about a year or so.

 

[Mooshie peas]

Agreed. Also, small hybrid vehicles have an initial cost which removes the
advantage of running them. There are "smart cars" here in the UK which are
cute and efficient and make environmental sense...yet they are so expensive
that the final amortization of the initial expenditure is thrown many many
years into the future.
The smartest car for economy in the UK at the moment is a third or
fourth-hand nineteen-ninety something Ford Fiesta. Incredibly cheap spares
& tyres, no complications and you can get a spanking good one on the road
with MOT for £500 GBP or even less.
I had a good engine put in one for £40. If you can MIG and have a basic
knowledge of M.V.Mechanics you are laughing.
"Smart" hybrid cars are a great idea though and I'm not knocking them.

Also, "Roll on the fuel cell". It's the answer to the lot.

Hopefully, but I hope you will need to feed them with something a
little more friendly than hydrogen. Geeze you can't get more friendly
than vegeoil. You can even eat the bloody stuff if you are stranded
without food

 

[Don Libby]

Mooshie peas remind me of whirled peas: ahhh... I can see it
now...

-dl

 

[Steve Spence]

A nice vw diesel (Jetta/Bug) will get you 50 mpg on diesel, biodiesel, or
vegetable oil.

 

[Michael Hannon]

And the VW Lupo TDI, a non-hybrid, much cheaper and less complex than any
hybrid, a four-seater, set the world's record for normal driving, including
stop-and-go, on a 3,700+mi test sanctioned and operated under the major auto
clubs in Britain, and British police, at 119+mpg. You can buy one at any VW
dealer in Europe.
The gasoline version gets 95mpg in normal driving, not feather-pedalling.
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/news708.html
My own experience shows fast acceleration to speed, then coasting with light
pedal at speed for best mileage - it works. My car has instant mpg readings
on it, as well as average, and that method wins hands down. It's a '95
Lincoln MkVIII I bought via eBay for $4,166, and with Prolong in the engine
and trans and a K&N air filter, it averaged 31.1 mpg from Carson City, NV to
Hollywood, CA (425mi) via Hwy 395 and the Antelope freeway by using that
method.

OH (M D)

 

[[email protected]]

And the VW Lupo TDI, a non-hybrid, much cheaper and less complex than any
hybrid, a four-seater, set the world's record for normal driving, including
stop-and-go, on a 3,700+mi test sanctioned and operated under the major auto
clubs in Britain, and British police, at 119+mpg. You can buy one at any VW
dealer in Europe.
The gasoline version gets 95mpg in normal driving, not feather-pedalling.
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/news708.html

Oooookay. A 1.2 liter diesel with no trunk. A power curve that's
descibed as 'kinky' in one review[1]. A top speed of 102, if you have
a while to get there[2]. Requires fuel that's not yet widely avilable
in the US (very low sulfer)[3]. That's not exactly in the same class
as the Prius or Civic.

[1] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm
[2] http://www.lupousa.com/
[3] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm

My own experience shows fast acceleration to speed, then coasting with light
pedal at speed for best mileage - it works. My car has instant mpg readings
on it, as well as average, and that method wins hands down. It's a '95
Lincoln MkVIII I bought via eBay for $4,166, and with Prolong in the engine
and trans and a K&N air filter, it averaged 31.1 mpg from Carson City, NV to
Hollywood, CA (425mi) via Hwy 395 and the Antelope freeway by using that
method.

OH (M D)

Please note that that's a 6 or 7 THOUSAND foot drop in altitude from
Carson to Hollywood. What was the milage driving TO Carson FROM
Hollywood OTOH, I hit 48MPG from SF to Reno in a 2002 Prius.

Daniel

 

[Don Libby]

And the VW Lupo TDI, a non-hybrid, much cheaper and less ...buy one at any VW
dealer in Europe.
The gasoline version gets 95mpg in normal driving, not feather-pedalling.
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/news708.html

Oooookay. A 1.2 liter diesel with no trunk. A power curve that's
descibed as 'kinky' in one review[1]. A top speed of 102, if you have
a while to get there[2]. Requires fuel that's not yet widely avilable
in the US (very low sulfer)[3]. That's not exactly in the same class
as the Prius or Civic.

[1] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm
[2] http://www.lupousa.com/
[3] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm

VeeDub diesel bug is my third choice, behind civic and insight,
and lupo sounds interesting but for the fact that neither
vehicle (nor fuel apparently) are available for sale in USA.

-dl

 

[Michael Hannon]

Indeed it isn't - it's not a hybrid, not nearly as complex or heavy as one,
and gets WAY better mileage without having to resort to that complexity or
price. It's definitely a different animal, and quite frankly, in a class of
its own - quirks included. But from A to B, there's no way to get four
personae there more energy-wise. If you're including the energy to BUILD it
vs that of hybrids, it's also way ahead. I'd look as well for more refined
engine qualities and bigger versions in the future while the hybrids
struggle to produce that mileage in much heavier cars that aren't exactly
huge in interior room, or power, either. As for the cleaner diesel fuel,
it'll be a future mandate. Is there anywhere in the US where you can
legally go 102mph?

OH (M D)

And the VW Lupo TDI, a non-hybrid, much cheaper and less complex than any
hybrid, a four-seater, set the world's record for normal driving, including
stop-and-go, on a 3,700+mi test sanctioned and operated under the major auto
clubs in Britain, and British police, at 119+mpg. You can buy one at any VW
dealer in Europe.
The gasoline version gets 95mpg in normal driving, not feather-pedalling.
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/news708.html

Oooookay. A 1.2 liter diesel with no trunk. A power curve that's
descibed as 'kinky' in one review[1]. A top speed of 102, if you have
a while to get there[2]. Requires fuel that's not yet widely avilable
in the US (very low sulfer)[3]. That's not exactly in the same class
as the Prius or Civic.

[1] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm
[2] http://www.lupousa.com/
[3] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm

My own experience shows fast acceleration to speed, then coasting with light
pedal at speed for best mileage - it works. My car has instant mpg readings
on it, as well as average, and that method wins hands down. It's a '95
Lincoln MkVIII I bought via eBay for $4,166, and with Prolong in the engine
and trans and a K&N air filter, it averaged 31.1 mpg from Carson City, NV to
Hollywood, CA (425mi) via Hwy 395 and the Antelope freeway by using that
method.

OH (M D)

Please note that that's a 6 or 7 THOUSAND foot drop in altitude from
Carson to Hollywood. What was the milage driving TO Carson FROM
Hollywood OTOH, I hit 48MPG from SF to Reno in a 2002 Prius.

Daniel

 

[Mooshie peas]

Indeed it isn't -

A 1.2 litre diesel?

it's not a hybrid, not nearly as complex or heavy as one,

Who suggested it was?

and gets WAY better mileage without having to resort to that complexity or
price.

What complexity or price is that?

It's definitely a different animal, and quite frankly, in a class of
its own - quirks included.

In what way? It's surely just a well-designed small diesel.

But from A to B, there's no way to get four
personae there more energy-wise.

Umm, what about pedals?

If you're including the energy to BUILD it
vs that of hybrids, it's also way ahead. I'd look as well for more refined
engine qualities and bigger versions in the future while the hybrids
struggle to produce that mileage in much heavier cars that aren't exactly
huge in interior room, or power, either. As for the cleaner diesel fuel,
it'll be a future mandate. Is there anywhere in the US where you can
legally go 102mph?

Not really the top speed that's important, it's the speed in getting
there in traffic.

BTW, I thought Prolong was a sex aid, but what does it do in your
trans and engine?

And the VW Lupo TDI, a non-hybrid, much cheaper and less complex than any
hybrid, a four-seater, set the world's record for normal driving, including
stop-and-go, on a 3,700+mi test sanctioned and operated under the major auto
clubs in Britain, and British police, at 119+mpg. You can buy one at any VW
dealer in Europe.
The gasoline version gets 95mpg in normal driving, not feather-pedalling.
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/news708.html

Oooookay. A 1.2 liter diesel with no trunk. A power curve that's
descibed as 'kinky' in one review[1]. A top speed of 102, if you have
a while to get there[2]. Requires fuel that's not yet widely avilable
in the US (very low sulfer)[3]. That's not exactly in the same class
as the Prius or Civic.

[1] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm
[2] http://www.lupousa.com/
[3] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm

My own experience shows fast acceleration to speed, then coasting with light
pedal at speed for best mileage - it works. My car has instant mpg readings
on it, as well as average, and that method wins hands down. It's a '95
Lincoln MkVIII I bought via eBay for $4,166, and with Prolong in the engine
and trans and a K&N air filter, it averaged 31.1 mpg from Carson City, NV to
Hollywood, CA (425mi) via Hwy 395 and the Antelope freeway by using that
method.

OH (M D)

Please note that that's a 6 or 7 THOUSAND foot drop in altitude from
Carson to Hollywood. What was the milage driving TO Carson FROM
Hollywood OTOH, I hit 48MPG from SF to Reno in a 2002 Prius.

Daniel

 

[Steve Spence]

We have a cleaner diesel fuel, it's called biodiesel.

Montana has sections where there is (or used to be) no speed limit....

 

[Chris1]

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:56:36 -0700, "Michael Hannon"


Not really the top speed that's important, it's the speed in getting
there in traffic.

BTW, I thought Prolong was a sex aid, but what does it do in your
trans and engine?

It's a Teflon based snake oil additive. Unrecommended by all OEMs.It
figures that MH would believe in it. But I wonder why no one has created a
diesel hybrid yet? Seems like that would beat both the gas hybrid, and the
straight deisel.


Chris

 

[G. R. L. Cowan]

It's a Teflon based snake oil additive. Unrecommended by all OEMs.It
figures that MH would believe in it. But I wonder why no one has created a
diesel hybrid yet? Seems like that would beat both the gas hybrid, and the
straight deisel.

One version of the GM Precept, which may have been fictitious,
was said to be a diesel hybrid.


--- Graham Cowan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/boron_blast.html --
how cars gain nuclear cachet

 

[Steve Spence]

I saw a bio-diesel electric hybrid Chevy S10 in Vermont. It was not a GM
job. Some college did the conversion.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org

 

[Michael Hannon]

It's a Teflon based snake oil additive. Unrecommended by all OEMs.

Where did you get that nonsense from - your imagination?
Try looking up the patent. It might help sort out your confusion.

It

figures that MH would believe in it. But I wonder why no one has created a
diesel hybrid yet? Seems like that would beat both the gas hybrid, and the
straight deisel.

Indeed, a hybrid with that engine technology would be capable of phenomenal
figures, but no one will build something like that until things get more
desperate - right now such animals are considered financially non-productive
for the industries (oil, etc.) to allow it. Yet it is possible, right now,
but no one will do it now - later, when petrofuel prices are, say, double
what they are now.
The strange intermarriage of fuel and car manufacturers involved in their
owning each other's stocks or interests makes this so.

OH (M D)

 

[Michael Hannon]

One version of the GM Precept, which may have been fictitious,
was said to be a diesel hybrid.

It would be probable, as diesels, they're inherently more efiicient thank
gasoline versions - especially the electronically controlled new ones, are
quite efficient, but costly. This is where I think VW has made a timely
breakthrough using very high pressure in its injectors and some other well
conceived "tricks," such as electronic steering and individual injector
pumps for each cylinder. The Lupo is quite a bag of tricks, actually.

 

[daestrom]

It's a Teflon based snake oil additive. Unrecommended by all OEMs.It
figures that MH would believe in it. But I wonder why no one has created a
diesel hybrid yet? Seems like that would beat both the gas hybrid, and the
straight deisel.

It may be because the diesel doesn't suffer such large efficiency 'hits' at
partial load that gasoline engines. A diesel large enough for all your
needs accelerating into traffic is just as efficient poking along at 40 mph
in suburban area, as a smaller diesel that would be running full-throttle in
the suburban setting.

Remember, much of the 'high-efficiency' of hybrids is really just
'not-a-loss-in-efficiency'. If an ordinary gas engine car could operate the
engine at its optimal efficiency all the time, it would be 'high-efficiency'
(well, *as* efficient as a hybrid). But in almost all cases, that's more
power than the driver needs. The hybrid operates the engine efficiently,
and uses the batteries to match the steady energy production with the
un-steady energy usage.

Since diesels don't suffer the same losses in efficiency at part-load, a
diesel hybrid would probably not see as large an improvement. So it may not
be worth the extra equipment/complexity of the hybrid technology.

daestrom

 

[Michael Hannon]

Upside: Outstanding milage.
Downsides: Not available in North America. Noisy.

The VW Bora TDI, which I drove in Holland, isn't noisy.
It doesn't sound like a gasoline engine, but it's not as noisy as other
diesels by a long shot. I didn't get to drive a Lupo, but I'd imagine it
follows suit. VW's been working on diesel noise for years.

Anemic acceleration.

The Bora is a hard-accelerating TDI that got 56 mpg@120kph (~75mph) in
Holland. This car is a rocket. It has 90hp. Yes, 90hp. Diesels are famous
for their low rpm torque. I wouldn't imagine that the Lupo is any different
torque-wise. We're talking about 119+mpg here
I'll take a slight power drop for that kind of mileage anyway.

Difficulty finding diesel fuel.

Becoming less so daily.

Diesel starting problems in cold climates.

Cold be, but in Holland, where it does get a tad cold, the Bora never had a
problem. VW's also been working on that for years. You have to remember that
in Europe, diesels are already in wide use, and getting wider.

Reviews indicate severe reliability problems.

I'd like to see those. Got some to refer to?

Conclusion: Promising, but needs work.

Most likely - I don't know any vehicle that's flawless.

 

[Roland Paterson-Jones]

It may be because the diesel doesn't suffer such large efficiency 'hits' at
partial load that gasoline engines. A diesel large enough for all your
needs accelerating into traffic is just as efficient poking along at 40 mph
in suburban area, as a smaller diesel that would be running full-throttle in
the suburban setting.

Mr. Daestrom, do you have any clue where to find efficiency graphs for part
load of typical gasoline or diesel engines? One clue that diesel engines are
more efficient than petrol engines are that their maximum torque curves are
closer to maximum over a way larger range of RPM. Maximum torque and power
curves are available for all cars on the market.

In other words, diesel engines are able to extract close to their best
energy (work) from each cylinder charge (i.e. a fixed amount of fuel), over
a way larger range of RPM than petrol engines.

This is impressive enough in its own right, but it says nothing about part
load. Where can we find out about part-load efficiencies of engines?

Remember, much of the 'high-efficiency' of hybrids is really just
'not-a-loss-in-efficiency'. If an ordinary gas engine car could operate the
engine at its optimal efficiency all the time, it would be 'high-efficiency'
(well, *as* efficient as a hybrid). But in almost all cases, that's more
power than the driver needs. The hybrid operates the engine efficiently,
and uses the batteries to match the steady energy production with the
un-steady energy usage.

Since diesels don't suffer the same losses in efficiency at part-load, a
diesel hybrid would probably not see as large an improvement. So it may not
be worth the extra equipment/complexity of the hybrid technology.

I found out recently that long-distance trains are diesel-electric hybrids.
Not hybrids in the motor-vehicle sense. They have an on-board diesel engine
and generator that provides power for a pure electric drive.

Current hybrid cars are going to morph into pure-electric drive units, where
the batteries are charged with a small efficient petrol/diesel generator,
operating at high efficiency.

Roland

--
Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones
Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay
http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge
mobile: +27 72 386 8045
e-mail: [email protected]

 

[Roland Paterson-Jones]

Upside: Outstanding milage.
Downsides: Not available in North America. Noisy.
Anemic acceleration. Difficulty finding diesel fuel.
Diesel starting problems in cold climates.
Reviews indicate severe reliability problems.

What planet are you from, dude? Modern TDI's are quiet and responsive.

Diesel fuel is available in most of the world from exactly the same garages
as petrol/gasoline.

Diesel engines are legendary for their longevity. Ask your local Greyhound
bus driver how far his engine has driven.

Roland

--
Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones
Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay
http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge
mobile: +27 72 386 8045
e-mail: [email protected]

 

[Steve Spence]

Diesel is not difficult to find in our area (currently 1.54 / gallon), and
winter starts are only marginally harder than gas engines. We run many
diesels (mostly pickups and larger trucks) in the North Country (Northern
New York).