clueless politicians

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:36:00 -0700, "Michael Hannon"
SNIPP

But I wonder why no one has created a
For the same reason you cannot buy a new diesel car in Cali (from what
I hear) - particulate emissions. Untill both the sulphur issue and
particulates are addressed, we will not likely see deisel hybrids in
north america.

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

I found out recently that long-distance trains are diesel-electric hybrids.
Not hybrids in the motor-vehicle sense. They have an on-board diesel engine
and generator that provides power for a pure electric drive.

I believe the reason they use the gen-set electric motor setup is that
it results in having a continuously variable transmission. The diesel
engine can operate at full power at any speed.

Imagine slipping a clutch with 25,000 foot pounds of torque!

Best, Dan.

P.S.
A working version of the MFC Clifford Library and Utilities interface
is available:
http://lakeweb.net

The executable is at:
http://lakeweb.net/view.exe
It now has an output view.

If you don't have the MFC71 dlls:
http://ReserveAnalyst.com/mfc71.zip

If you would like the source for .NET 2003 sooner than later, write me
at the address on the website.

 

[Fred B. McGalliard]

hybrids.
....
I believe the reason they use the gen-set electric motor setup is that
it results in having a continuously variable transmission. The diesel
engine can operate at full power at any speed.

Imagine slipping a clutch with 25,000 foot pounds of torque!

I thought it also had to do with driving multiple drive wheels for increased
traction.

 

[daestrom]

I believe the reason they use the gen-set electric motor setup is that
it results in having a continuously variable transmission. The diesel
engine can operate at full power at any speed.

Imagine slipping a clutch with 25,000 foot pounds of torque!

Best, Dan.

Exactly right!!! But they don't develop 'full power' at any speed, more
like 'full torque'. And since power is proportional to torque times speed,
you can see that at slow speeds, they cannot develop the same *power* as at
full speed.

daestrom

 

[daestrom]

full-throttle


In other words, diesel engines are able to extract close to their best
energy (work) from each cylinder charge (i.e. a fixed amount of fuel), over
a way larger range of RPM than petrol engines.

'close to their best energy.... over a way larger range of RPM' is another
way of saying what I had already said. They (diesel engines) don't loose
their efficiency at partial loads. (at least not nearly as much as Otto
engines).

I found out recently that long-distance trains are diesel-electric hybrids.
Not hybrids in the motor-vehicle sense. They have an on-board diesel engine
and generator that provides power for a pure electric drive.

That is correct. An electric-drive (no batteries) is an efficient
alternative to transmission/clutch systems. Its efficiency is not much
different than fixed gear transmissions, but able to handle much larger
power flows in a compact space/weight. It has also been used for many years
on board many ships. The optimum engine speed is much different than the
optimum propeller speed. Fixed gear transmissions require the engine speed
to vary over a wide range to provide the desired range of propeller (or
railroad) speeds. Multi-gear transmissions are too costly and bulky. Even
simple reverser gears require a clutch (a bulky component when it has to
transmit 30 000 to 50 000 hp as it may on a ship)

Electric-drive avoids a lot of these issues. But it does not, by itself,
provide any efficiency improvement. Other than the weight savings and the
ability to operate the prime-mover (engine) at its best speed.

Current hybrid cars are going to morph into pure-electric drive units, where
the batteries are charged with a small efficient petrol/diesel generator,
operating at high efficiency.

Sorry, but they've already done that. The Prius and other 'hybrids' have
relatively small Otto engines that run at one speed when on (the most
efficient point), and automatically shutdown when the battery is charged.
Most of the gains in gas-mileage are simply because the engine is *only* run
at its most efficient speed.

The battery simply 'smooths-out' the differences between engine generation
and driving demand. The amount of energy recovered in regenerative braking
depends on the style of driving (stop & go vs. highway), and isn't always a
lot.

daestrom

 

[daestrom]

I thought it also had to do with driving multiple drive wheels for increased
traction.

Traction in a railroad locomotive is a funny thing. The amount of weight
allowed per axle is determined by the type of rail used in the road. Many
locomotives are at this limit. If you add more axles, the weight per axle
goes down and the tractive effort developed per axle goes down so the total
traction stays the same.

For example, you have a 240 000 lbm, 4-axle locomotive. Each axle is
carrying about 60 000 lbm and with a coefficient of friction of 0.25, can
develop about 15 000 lbf of tractive effort per axle. This gives a total of
4X15 000 or 60 000 lbf tractive effort. Change the trucks out to have three
axles each (for a total of 6 axles) and you have only 40 000 lbm of weight
on each. With the same coefficient of friction (0.25) each axle can only
develop 10 000 lbf of tractive effort. The total is 6X10 000 or 60 000 lbf,
same as before.

But of course, with a 6 axle locomotive, you can raise the total weight up
to 360 000 lbm without exceeding 60 000 lbm/axle on the rail. And this
would give you a total tractive effort of 75 000 lbf.

If all axles where connected by mechanical transmission, when one axle
started to slip, all the torque would be transferred to the remaining axles.
This would quickly overcome the friction of the remaining wheels and you
suddenly have all the axles slipping and tractive effort drops to zip. If
it's a multi-unit lashup (multiple diesels tied together), the others will
either stall or quickly start slipping with the sudden loss of tractive
effort of the first one.

With electric drive, when one axle slips and starts to speed up, the current
on the generator drops and the engine speeds up slightly (mechanical
governor on engine controls its speed). But other axles don't see a sudden
increase in power delivered to them so they are less likely to break-away
and start slipping. Of course if the slipping axle isn't recovered, the
train slows down.

Modern locomotives actually have electronic control of power to each axle.
If one starts to slip, its power can be quickly reduced momentarily to stop
the slippage, then quickly re-applied to just below the slip point.

As the train gathers speed, the locomotive(s) becomes hp limited. Once the
diesel engine's developed hp reaches maximum, as the road speed increases,
the amount of tractive effort that can be maintained drops since speed x
tractive-effort = hp.

Oh well, guess you can tell I'm a railroad fan ;-)

daestrom

 

[Steve Spence]

The sulfur and particulates have been addressed. It's called BIODIESEL

 

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

Exactly right!!! But they don't develop 'full power' at any speed, more
like 'full torque'. And since power is proportional to torque times speed,
you can see that at slow speeds, they cannot develop the same *power* as at
full speed.

daestrom

They actually come pretty close. The deisel runs at it's MAX POWER
rpm under load. If it is rated at 5000 HP, that is what it will put
out (at standard atmosphere) and the generator produces aprox 3725KW.
The traction motor converts that 3725KW to tractive power - and being
a series motor it produces virtually limitless torque at 0 rpm, up to
0 torque at limitless rpm (theoretically)

Quite possible to produce it's maximum rated POWER from very low
rpm/high torque to high rpm/low torque. You could well see close to
50000 ft lbs at 500 rpm, or 10000 ft lb at 2500 RPM under full load.
Both are roughly 4750 HP

More likely to see 40000 and 8000, for 3800 HP for roughly 75%
efficiency.

 

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

Sorry, but they've already done that. The Prius and other 'hybrids' have
relatively small Otto engines that run at one speed when on (the most
efficient point), and automatically shutdown when the battery is charged.
Most of the gains in gas-mileage are simply because the engine is *only* run
at its most efficient speed.

The battery simply 'smooths-out' the differences between engine generation
and driving demand. The amount of energy recovered in regenerative braking
depends on the style of driving (stop & go vs. highway), and isn't always a
lot.

daestrom

No, the Prius is a very efficient underpowered conventional IC engined
car with an electric "super charger". When you need more power than
the IC engine can produce, the electric motor at the flywheel takes up
the slack. When the engine is capable of producing more power than the
vehicle requires to maintain equilibrium, the motor at the flywheel
turns into a generator, and charges the battery. When slowing down,
the motor also acts as a generator, converting inertia into
electricity.
The CVT does keep the engine running at close to it's maximum
efficiency speed, but the Subaru Justy used a CVT, as did the dutch
DAF, without electrical hybridization.
A snowmobile uses a rough CVT too, and is not terribly efficient.

 

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

The sulfur and particulates have been addressed. It's called BIODIESEL

It has not been COMMERCIALLY addressed. Biodiesel for the masses is
still a pipe dream.

 

[Tony Wesley]

[talking about the Toyota Prius]

The CVT does keep the engine running at close to it's maximum
efficiency speed, but the Subaru Justy used a CVT, as did the dutch
DAF, without electrical hybridization.

Some models of the GM Saturn also use a CVT.

 

[Steve Spence]

It's available at quite a few commercial stations in the USA, and thousands
of stations in Europe. More serving it are coming online each month. So, it
is commercial, just not widely, yet. Of course, anyone with an hour to spend
can whip up a 30 gallon batch in their backyard if they wish.

 

[News]

It's available at quite a few commercial stations in the USA, and thousands
of stations in Europe. More serving it are coming online each month. So, it
is commercial, just not widely, yet. Of course, anyone with an hour to spend
can whip up a 30 gallon batch in their backyard if they wish.

Biodiesel is the norm in Germany I believe.

 

[daestrom]

They actually come pretty close. The deisel runs at it's MAX POWER
rpm under load. If it is rated at 5000 HP, that is what it will put
out (at standard atmosphere) and the generator produces aprox 3725KW.
The traction motor converts that 3725KW to tractive power - and being
a series motor it produces virtually limitless torque at 0 rpm, up to
0 torque at limitless rpm (theoretically)

Quite possible to produce it's maximum rated POWER from very low
rpm/high torque to high rpm/low torque. You could well see close to
50000 ft lbs at 500 rpm, or 10000 ft lb at 2500 RPM under full load.
Both are roughly 4750 HP

I think you're talking about the power developed by the traction motors at
the wheels. I/we were talking about the power developed by the diesel
engine, as it varied speed (not the wheels). You're right that if running
the engine in notch 8, the diesel engine is developing max power, regardless
of road speed.

And that's one of the beauties of electric transmission or other CVT. You
can run the engine flat-out at max power, while the locomotive creeps along
at 15 mph.

daestrom

 

[Michael Hannon]

When I first saw the mention of the VW Lupo TDI, I did a Google
search, and came up with a long list of reviews. Since it is not
available in North America, I had to base my opinion on what other
people said.

Where? Anyone can say they read reviews, but this is a sci.* newsgroup - if
you say you read something, it behooves you to produce the evidence in a
quote or provide a link to the source in order to validate it, not just say
you witnessed it. I've been watching the Lupo for well over a year now, and
I can't recall having seen any such reviews touting what you describe. Care
to provide us links so that we can see what you're talking about?

The reliability problems weren't with the engine, it was with other
parts of the car. Noise was also mentioned.

I used to drive a diesel car, so I am familiar with difficulty in
finding fuel, and the problems with cold weather starts. One very cold
morning in Boise, Idaho, the car wouldn't start, even with the block
heater on. I had to re-charge the battery. Still wouldn't start.
Finally, I shoved a hair dryer running full blast into the air intake
manifold, and then it finally started.

CM

I'm afraid that diesels may have progressed since then. Even some Mercedeses
now have hotwires in their intakes to heat the air before it enters the
combustion chamber, and that's just for starters. Some diesels aim the fuel
directly at the glowplug area to preheat it - there have been a slew of
innovations used to deal with diesel starting problems, particularly in
Europe, where they're selling like crazy. It's now rare to see a long haul
diesel truck in Europe sitting there idling for long periods like in the US.
They shut them down and restart them when they're ready to roll again - no
starting problems. I spent quite a time debating why American truckers leave
their diesels idling for such long periods with European truckers, and the
consensus is that it no longer has to do with starting problems, but engine
wear related to so many repeated startups, when most of the wear in engines
takes place.

OH (M D)

 

[Michael Hannon]

Mileage on the return was 28 mpg, and I was in a hurry - no caution about
mileage, and thunderstorms made driving difficult at times - some people
were parked, waiting for them to pass. If a tank is used in stop-and go
only, with hard acceleration used a lot, it gets in the mid 22's - that's
the lowest it gets. But, as I said, there's 280hp on tap when you stomp on
the accelerator - it burns rubber from a standstill whenever you want to.
But at 75mph, the engine is barely turning 2,000rpm, so the mileage goes way
up on flat stretches.

Indeed it isn't - it's not a hybrid, not nearly as complex or heavy as one,
and gets WAY better mileage without having to resort to that complexity or
price. It's definitely a different animal, and quite frankly, in a class of
its own - quirks included. But from A to B, there's no way to get four
personae there more energy-wise. If you're including the energy to BUILD it
vs that of hybrids, it's also way ahead. I'd look as well for more refined
engine qualities and bigger versions in the future while the hybrids
struggle to produce that mileage in much heavier cars that aren't exactly
huge in interior room, or power, either. As for the cleaner diesel fuel,
it'll be a future mandate. Is there anywhere in the US where you can
legally go 102mph?

OH (M D)

major

auto

any

VW

dealer in Europe.
The gasoline version gets 95mpg in normal driving, not feather-pedalling.
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/news708.html

Oooookay. A 1.2 liter diesel with no trunk. A power curve that's
descibed as 'kinky' in one review[1]. A top speed of 102, if you have
a while to get there[2]. Requires fuel that's not yet widely avilable
in the US (very low sulfer)[3]. That's not exactly in the same class
as the Prius or Civic.

[1] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm
[2] http://www.lupousa.com/
[3] http://www.philpatton.com/lupo.htm

My own experience shows fast acceleration to speed, then coasting with light
pedal at speed for best mileage - it works. My car has instant mpg readings
on it, as well as average, and that method wins hands down. It's a '95
Lincoln MkVIII I bought via eBay for $4,166, and with Prolong in the engine
and trans and a K&N air filter, it averaged 31.1 mpg from Carson City, NV to
Hollywood, CA (425mi) via Hwy 395 and the Antelope freeway by using that
method.

OH (M D)

Please note that that's a 6 or 7 THOUSAND foot drop in altitude from
Carson to Hollywood. What was the milage driving TO Carson FROM
Hollywood OTOH, I hit 48MPG from SF to Reno in a 2002 Prius.

Daniel

Who's going to be willing to buy that Prius when the warranty expires and
you're tired of it? I wouldn't -
the power train repair costs on a hybrid are going to be fascinating, to say
the least.

 

[Chris1]

Their is a alot of mis-information about K&N filters.

Are K&N Filters effective?
I have taken the position that they are not for two reasons. 1) I sell
Amsoil Air Filters.

Spamsoil

 

[Michael Hannon]

All I can say is that I had a K&N air filter on a Mercury Sable I owned that
I put 130,000 miles on before I hit some black ice in the CA mountains and
crashed it. At the time, it had 170,000+ miles on it and still passed the CA
smog test with figures that would pass a new car - the test stations were
always amazed at the figures for the mileage on that car. But then, it also
ran on Mobil 1, so maybe the filter was passing particles, but the oil was
still protecting the engine from them??
Not!!
I've been using K&Ns for well over 10 years, and I swear by them. They have
gotten every engine I ever hooked them up to better mileage and feelable
power increases. Are Amzoil products good? I'm sure they are. But why knock
K&N?

OH (M D)

 

[Dave Hinz]

All I can say is that I had a K&N air filter on a Mercury Sable I owned that
I put 130,000 miles on before I hit some black ice in the CA mountains and
crashed it. At the time, it had 170,000+ miles on it

I put 247,000 miles on my Saab 900, the last 200,000 or so miles with
a (single) K&N filter. Mileage went up 1.5 MPG, and longevity wasn't
a problem. Oh...I traded it in at that point, it's still running around
town.

I've been using K&Ns for well over 10 years, and I swear by them. They have
gotten every engine I ever hooked them up to better mileage and feelable
power increases. Are Amzoil products good? I'm sure they are. But why knock
K&N?

Yup. I don't have the car anymore, and in any case the power increase
(advertised as 5-7 HP by someone who I trust) is nominal, but the mileage
improvements, and the servicability, were definately worth the price of
the filter. Amzoil's filter might be just fine, but their oil change
interval claims have made me wary of the entire product line. Yeah,
maybe it stays slippery, but not changing for tens of thousands of
miles doesn't get the contaminants away from your engine.

Mobil 1 oil and K&N filters are working for me. Anecdotal evidence, yes,
but how are you going to get statistically significant numbers of test
cases who are going to agree to drive in a similar manner, in the same
car, with either Amsoil or Mobil1 & K&N?

Both are probably good. I've chosen to stay with what I have, amsoil
sales posts or not.

Dave Hinz

 

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

All I can say is that I had a K&N air filter on a Mercury Sable I owned that
I put 130,000 miles on before I hit some black ice in the CA mountains and
crashed it. At the time, it had 170,000+ miles on it and still passed the CA
smog test with figures that would pass a new car - the test stations were
always amazed at the figures for the mileage on that car. But then, it also
ran on Mobil 1, so maybe the filter was passing particles, but the oil was
still protecting the engine from them??
Not!!
I've been using K&Ns for well over 10 years, and I swear by them. They have
gotten every engine I ever hooked them up to better mileage and feelable
power increases. Are Amzoil products good? I'm sure they are. But why knock
K&N?

OH (M D)

Just like a Canadian politician. If you can't convince people you are
good, convince them the opposition is not.

I've used K&N filters - 240,000 KM on the last one when I sold the
1990 Aerostar it was attatched to a year ago. No oil consumption to
speak of, and virtually clean on the E-Test.