Bilge Pump Switch

[Dan Best]

I think his point re: the transponders is they we can count the planes
with them. So that 3600 is the minimum # of planes up there. An unknown
number w/out transponders are also up there adding their exhaust to the mix.

 

[Paul]

Oh, that makes sense. Unless he pipes up I'll accept that as the answer.

Although my next question will be whether jet exhaust contributes to ozone
depletion. Anyone know?

I guess we've left the bilge pump switch far behind ...

 

[Oliver Fleming]

Hi Fellers,
We are getting waaaaaaaaay off my original request here.
Everything from rubbish Rule to ozone depletion.

I just require a simple answer to a simple question.
Somebody suggested a simple RC delay relay. What is that? I
can't find one.

Cheers
Oliver Fleming

 

[Rick]

You guys REALLY need to spend some time on a COMMERCIAL SHIP. 100
gallons of diesel fuel pumped overboard is like a teaspoon in a lake.
They pump more than you store overboard just STARTING IT!

With that approach you would last about 2 minutes on board a commercial
vessel.

As a chief engineer steam and motor any horsepower who currently makes a
living sailing deep sea I can tell you very clearly that the statement
you made above is unadulterated BS of the most absurd type.

I don't know where you ever got such a stupid idea but I would thank you
to stop posting that kind of ignorant nonsense as if you had a clue
about it.

Geez, what a bunch of crap. We don't even put rainwater over the side of
a tanker alongside these days and we never pump bilges overboard except
through a 15 ppm separator and then only outside 12 miles.

File that along with your transponder nonsense ... I doubt if there is a
single turbine powered aircraft in the US fleet that is NOT equipped
with a transponder so the idea of them as a means of counting is BS as well.

Rick

 

[Oliver Fleming]

Hi Fellas,
Think I got it. Thanks to

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Ball rolling up and down a tube.

Just set up a tube (Plastic) with a roller inside (lead ball
sinker)

Set it so the "float side" is just slightly heavier when the ball
is on the "up" side.

When the ball is on the "up" side the ball rolls to that end. The
mercury switch kicks in. When the water level drops the ball
(reluctantly) drop to the low end (giving a suitable time delay)
and kicks out the mercury switch. Now ready for the next cycle.
I have had a bit of an experiment with this and am encouraged
by the results.
It also reconciles with my KISS philosphiloy.

Thanks for everybody's contributions.

Cheers
Oliver Fleming

 

[Rick]

How big is the holding tank?.....(c;

Thousands of barrels.

No, I want to pump it all OVERBOARD BEFORE
THE DAMNED THING EXPLODES!!

Care to describe the mechanism of the explosion you fear so much?
A bilge full of diesel is not a life threatening emergency and if you
pumped it over the side in an ignorant panic it would be labeled an
intentional discharge and you would be fined and jailed. Stupidity is
not a defense in a pollution case.

If you actually have the bilge pumps on your sugar daddy's boat wired so
that they cannot be switched off I hope you are well insured. If he
knows about it and accepts the condition he may share a cell with you.
If you worked for me and did something that stupid you would find
yourself down the dock so fast your shadow would display a color shift.

Wiring the pumps so they cannot be turned off is stupid, dangerous, and
ignorant. IF you intentionally wired them that way as you seem to state
then you are too dangerous and stupid to be trusted aboard a boat.

ME FIRST.....especially out of sight of LAND!!

Tell that to the court.

(Why do I have this picture of a greenie knee deep
in burning diesel fuel worrying about getting any of
it in the water?).......(c;

Because you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about.

You guys REALLY need to spend some time on a COMMERCIAL SHIP.

It is painfully obvious YOU never have. If you visited one you were
totally blind as to what you saw because you are unable to understand
the vessel and its operation.

100 gallons of diesel fuel pumped overboard is like a teaspoon
in a lake.

I see you haven't bothered to look up "non sequitur."

They pump more than you store overboard just STARTING IT!

This is absolute nonsense and ignorance. Why on Earth would you post
something like that? Where did you ever get such an idea? If you just
made it up out of some fantasy why did you post something like that?
This type of statement really shows that you are an uninformed loon,
Larry, a dangerous loon if anyone lets you touch anything on a boat, and
you endanger others who might believe the garbage you write.

Rick

 

[Joe Here]

Hi Fellas,
Think I got it. Thanks to

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

Ball rolling up and down a tube.

Just set up a tube (Plastic) with a roller inside (lead ball
sinker)

Set it so the "float side" is just slightly heavier when the ball
is on the "up" side.

When the ball is on the "up" side the ball rolls to that end. The
mercury switch kicks in. When the water level drops the ball
(reluctantly) drop to the low end (giving a suitable time delay)
and kicks out the mercury switch. Now ready for the next cycle.
I have had a bit of an experiment with this and am encouraged
by the results.
It also reconciles with my KISS philosphiloy.

Thanks for everybody's contributions.

Cheers
Oliver Fleming

Have you looked at magnetic switches, the type used on window
and door house alarms? I seems it would be easier to affix the switch
and float the magnet on a hinge? The switches are usually glass
sealed.

 

[Larry Demers]

Use the switch to trigger a pilot relay, which in turn runs the pump. Make
the contact rating fairly beefy because of the reverse EMF from the motor
winding, when that DC motor is turned off..will generate fairly healthy
voltage and it will arc while the contacts are opening.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

 

[Ian Malcolm]

Just check the current rating on those reed switches. They might not
last long switching on and off a high capacity bilge pump instead of an
alarm sensor circuit.

Steve

NO WAY have they got the required current rating, also I would be
concerned about water penetration of the magnet and reed units if you use
off the shelf alarm parts.
The idea does have merit however and if 'bare' reed switches and magnets
were encapsulated in epoxy, that sorts out the water intrusion problem.

To solve the low current rating problem you would need to use a relay
rated for the pump stall current mounted high and dry, far from the bilge,
controlled by the reed switch and add a diode accross the relay coil
(cathode positive, 1N4148 would be fine) to prevent arcing in the reed
switch. A suitable diode rated for the motor current connected across it,
cathode positive would also increase reliability by reducing arcing at the
relay contacts.

Some experimentation with the magnet strength and the seperation would be
required, but I see the posibility of using the magnet to provide
hysterisis in the switching action. (i.e. the switch turns off at a lower
level than that which turned it on)

The magnet is strongly attracted to a piece of mild steel when its really
close to it and the attraction gets much weaker rapildly as the distance
is increased. This could be used to hold the float up until it is nearly
out of the water before its weight can pull the magnet away fron the
switch assembly. Once its dropped, it cannot re-close untill more
bilgewater lifts it up again.

The difficulty would be putting enough mild steel in the reed switch
housing without interfering with the operation of the switch. If you use
2 pieces of steel, and dont put them near the middle of the glass reed
switch body, it should work ok.

Considerable experimentation and testing will be required to get a
reliable switch assembly suitable for use in a bilge.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Uffa Fox designed, All varnished hot moulded
wooden racing dinghy circa. 1961

 

[K Smith]

Hi,
I am sure this has been covered before but I cannot find it
on google.

However I am sick of replacing bilge pump switches. ( I have a
shed full of floats!)

I thought to seal a mercury switch and put it on the float when
the float goes up the pump comes on (through a good relay)

However the switch comes on the pump runs for a very short time
and just clicks on and off driving the relay crazy.
I need to have a delay that will keep the relay pulled in say
5 to 10 seconds before dropping out and resetting.
Anyone have an idea or circuit that will do this for me.
Thanks
Oliver Fleming

Hope you'll excuse the paste from a previous post;

Thinking about installing a Bilge-Buddy electronic sensor to replace my Rule
flapper in the rear bilge. Have any users of this product had issues? I
heard they are not dependable.
BK

Most of the bilge pump switches have trouble where the wiring
enters the switch itself. The rule arm ones are about as safe proof
as possible (it's just a bent placky tube with mercury) but again
it's where the wires enter the tube that fails.

The best fix is to glue (any construction adhesive is OK) a piece
of poly foam (the core type, not cooler type because petrol will eat
it) onto the rule arm then mount it higher in the bilge so the
switch itself never gets wet. You can carve the shape of the foam so
the pump triggers on or off at whatever levels you like.


K

 

[Derek.Moody]

If the damned bilge is full of diesel fuel or anything that can burn,
you bet your ass it'll be pumped OVERBOARD at the first
opportunity.....right in front of the damned CG cutter if he's in the
way!.....

There's the lemming instinct.

Sue me later.......I'll still be alive to sue!....(c;

Maybe not.

Diesel isn't a significant flash risk so it may as well stay in the bilge
until you scavenge it and return the bulk to the fuel tank through a
filter/seperator.

Almost anything else flammable in the bilge will carry a flash risk. The
easy way to trigger an explosion is to run an electric pump with a
slow-moving switch that will arc nicely as the circuit breaks. At this
point the vessel bursts into flame and as you jump over the side and the
lifejacket brings you to the surface you discover you are swimming in the
centre of a large pool of freshly discharged fuel...

Clear inflammables from the bilge with a manual pump. That includes
heavier-than-air gasses - eg the leaking regulator on the lpg cylinder.

Cheerio,

--

 

[Vito]

Care to describe the mechanism of the explosion you fear so much? .....

The probability of a bilge full of diesel exploding is indeed
vanishingly small, but so is the probability of having a bilge full of
diesel to begin with and the sum of the latter plus the probability of
getting caught pumping it out is perforce even smaller.

If you actually have the bilge pumps on your sugar daddy's boat wired so
that they cannot be switched off I hope you are well insured. ....

My insurance would NOT cover flooding if the bilge pump wasn't powered
directly from a battery via the float switch. There is a switch on the
power panel that bypasses the float switch to force the pump on but the
only way to shut the pump off if the bilge flooded is to take the wire
off the battery - which'd take only seconds.

Have y'all finished your precautions against the Yellowstone Caldera
exploding? (c:

 

[Rick]

My insurance would NOT cover flooding if the bilge pump wasn't powered
directly from a battery via the float switch. There is a switch on the
power panel that bypasses the float switch to force the pump on but the
only way to shut the pump off if the bilge flooded is to take the wire
off the battery - which'd take only seconds.

It is supposed to be powered from the battery through a breaker via a
manual/auto switch. The object of the regulation is to ensure that the
battery switch will not disable the bilge pump.

The breaker or a switch should be readily available so as to interrupt
power to the bilge pump in the event of accidental discharge of fuel or oil.

Not everyone can reach their batteries within seconds, much less
disconnect the bilge pump supply.

Think about it for a moment. If fuel or oil is being pumped over the
side then there is no water in the bilge and that is a good indication
that there is no flooding involved. This is not an emergency that calls
for intentionally polluting a waterway.

Have y'all finished your precautions against the Yellowstone Caldera
exploding?

You'll have to ask Larry.

Rick

 

[Vito]

Think about it for a moment. If fuel or oil is being pumped over the
side then there is no water in the bilge and that is a good indication
that there is no flooding involved. ...

I have thot about it at length, and apparently so has my insurer. "IF"
it the key. My fuel tank is below the motor so the only way fuel could
get into the bilge unnoticed is for the tank to crack while the boat sat
unattended. It is far more likely that a shaft seal or thru-hull or
hatch might leak. So, if there were a switch, it'd be left on *all* the
time anyway. My batteries are mounted inches above the bilge trough so
the wires to the float switch and thence to the pumps are only 18" long.
Of course there are people who'd run a wire 12+ ft to a CB then back to
the float switch in order to feel safer but I'm not quite that silly
yet.Point is that the caldera is 1000s of times more likely to kill us all
than my setup is to pump fuel overboard, yet y'all (plural) are more
worried about the latter than the former. Makes less sense than going to
church every Sunday.

Enjoy the weekend ...

 

[Rick]

Of course there are people who'd run a wire 12+ ft to a CB then back to
the float switch in order to feel safer but I'm not quite that silly
yet.

Well, Vito, not everyone's boat is just like yours. Many people have
boats with bilges that require pumping fairly regularly. These people
have boats that sometimes have oil in the bilges from any number of
sources including fuel leaks, hydraulic leaks, spills, overflows, pick a
source, any one is a common if infrequent occurrence. These boats
often have multiple battery banks that feed breaker panels which are the
source of power to bilge pumps and other devices. While you may have
only one battery and can reach it in seconds not everyone can. Your
installation does not apply to all or perhaps even most boaters.

If there is no one aboard to see the oil go overboard then it is
academic whether there is a switch to turn the pump off or not. If
someone is aboard then that person may see the oil and do something to
reduce the quantity pumped overboard. It is that simple.

Point is that the caldera is 1000s of times more likely to kill us all
than my setup is to pump fuel overboard, yet y'all (plural) are more
worried about the latter than the former. Makes less sense than going to
church every Sunday.

Quite frankly I worry more about my bilge overboard than I do your
caldera. If your caldera blew up it would not have nearly the same
impact on me as a few tablespoons of oil in the water through my bilge
pump. When I pump bilges I monitor the discharge and am ready to switch
the pump off at the first indication of a sheen. I also have an oil
content monitor which will detect oil in concentrations greater than
15ppm and shut the pump off but I still watch the overboard when I am
onboard. It is just good practice, it is not paranoia.

Rick

 

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes

1) Diesel is combustible and not flammable. You could probably put a
match out in it. Actually in some circumstances you can put a match
out in gasoline without having any kind of explosion, but don't try
this at home.

I have seen diesel pumped overboard by the boat next to me in the
marina in Bimini - it was because someone knocked the transfer switch
to transfer fuel from one tank to another (it was a power boat), and
the tank that was being transferred TO was full. So I'm sitting there
wondering what that pink stuff coming out of the boat is, and then
later our boat is sitting in a pool of diesel.

2) We have our grey water from the head sink routed to a grey water
box in the bilge with an automatic float switch pump in it. The rest
of the bilge is manual. The grey water box has an oil water separator
so that if the water comes up in the bilge which might be contaminated
with oil waste, the oil will not be automatically pumped out.

Well, Vito, not everyone's boat is just like yours. Many people have
boats with bilges that require pumping fairly regularly. These people
have boats that sometimes have oil in the bilges from any number of
sources including fuel leaks, hydraulic leaks, spills, overflows, pick a
source, any one is a common if infrequent occurrence. These boats
often have multiple battery banks that feed breaker panels which are the
source of power to bilge pumps and other devices. While you may have
only one battery and can reach it in seconds not everyone can. Your
installation does not apply to all or perhaps even most boaters.

If there is no one aboard to see the oil go overboard then it is
academic whether there is a switch to turn the pump off or not. If
someone is aboard then that person may see the oil and do something to
reduce the quantity pumped overboard. It is that simple.



Quite frankly I worry more about my bilge overboard than I do your
caldera. If your caldera blew up it would not have nearly the same
impact on me as a few tablespoons of oil in the water through my bilge
pump. When I pump bilges I monitor the discharge and am ready to switch
the pump off at the first indication of a sheen. I also have an oil
content monitor which will detect oil in concentrations greater than
15ppm and shut the pump off but I still watch the overboard when I am
onboard. It is just good practice, it is not paranoia.

Rick

grandma Rosalie

 

[Karin Conover-Lewis]

MERCURY SWITCHES!!??? My god, man! Don't you understand how bleeding
dangerous mercury is!!?? ;-)

--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at gte dot net (old -- don't use)
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net (new)

 

[Trond Solem]

My Mercury isn't dangrous at all. It just sits there on the transom....
Jokes aside. Mercury switches are more common than you might think. It is in
fact the most commonly used type of swich used for on-off function based on
tilt angle. It is encapsulated, so it won't poison you or the waterways
unless you decides to smash it with a large hammer.

Trond.

 

[Larry Demers]

Heck yes..they are in a lot of "Quiet Switches" in homes for instance. Most
mechanical water level detectors in industry are large mercury switches in a
round float that resembles a boats bumper sort of. Even Honeywell thermostats
on the wall have mercury switches in them.

The only failure I ran into when using them was if the envelope leaked
air..the mercury would get a layer of oxide on it, which was non-conductive.
Then when the switch tilted, the mercury would surround the switches probes as
designed, but would not make electrical contact.

Larry DeMers

 

[Dazed and Confuzed]

Use the switch to trigger a pilot relay, which in turn runs the pump. Make
the contact rating fairly beefy because of the reverse EMF from the motor
winding, when that DC motor is turned off..will generate fairly healthy
voltage and it will arc while the contacts are opening.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer

and put a diode across the contacts (a big beefy diode) to control the back
EMF.


--


Life lesson #48:

You can continue to puke long after you think you should be done......