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$1b electric car infrastructure deal

D

Don McKenzie

David said:

couldn't agree more Dave,
I think the main stumbling block is still battery technology, and not
refueling stations. If the battery was good enough, and the car cheap
enough, there wouldn't be a problem.

People would rent car space and power outlets in their front yards, if
refueling stations was the bottle neck.

City based companies could provide for their workers, or spin a profit
from company owned car parks.

Don...


--
Don McKenzie

Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email

http://www.dontronics-shop.com/super4-usb-relay-module.html
http://www.wizard-from-oz.com 1000's of electronic items
 
D

David L. Jones

couldn't agree more Dave,
I think the main stumbling block is still battery technology, and not
refueling stations. If the battery was good enough, and the car cheap
enough, there wouldn't be a problem.

I agree.
Although having a big infrastructure in place will help things
immensely, both politically and practically for the first generation
of cars that don't get hundreds of km per charge.
People would rent car space and power outlets in their front yards, if
refueling stations was the bottle neck.
City based companies could provide for their workers, or spin a profit
from company owned car parks.

Our local shopping centre has had an electric car only space for many
years, and a place I used to work at had one too (at the request of
an employee who built her own fully electric car)

Dave.
 
D

Don McKenzie

Our local shopping centre has had an electric car only space for many
years, and a place I used to work at had one too (at the request of
an employee who built her own fully electric car)

Dave.

an interesting read at:
<http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=electrifying-cars-down-under-2008-10-23>

quote "there is a compelling case for automobile manufacturers to jump
in and build clean, safe, affordable electric cars for Australasia and
Southeast Asia.” Who knows? Maybe some Australian city will become the
Detroit of the 21st century?

Perhaps we do need to build the infrastructure first.
Lay your eggs, and the chickens will arrive in great numbers, grasshopper!

Don...


--
Don McKenzie

Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap
E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email

http://www.dontronics-shop.com/super4-usb-relay-module.html
http://www.wizard-from-oz.com 1000's of electronic items
 
D

Den

Mr.T said:
But where is the "clean, safe, affordable" electricity going to come from?
Not to mention "clean, safe, affordable" batteries!

MrT.

Dooonnn't worry - there's this clean coal thats being mined.....
 
D

David L. Jones

an interesting read at:
<http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=electrifying-....>

quote "there is a compelling case for automobile manufacturers to jump
in and build clean, safe, affordable electric cars for Australasia and
Southeast Asia.” Who knows? Maybe some Australian city will become the
Detroit of the 21st century?

Perhaps we do need to build the infrastructure first.
Lay your eggs, and the chickens will arrive in great numbers, grasshopper!

I'm curious to know the details of this and how it's going to be
implemented, both in these charging stations and the cars themselves.
They will want to protect their market space somehow if it takes off.

As you said, people will rent space and a power point at their own
place, along with existing service stations, parking stations, shops,
work places etc. None of this needs this new "infrastructure", which
is really just a special plug connection and a payment system to the
existing grid.

People will no doubt try and "steal" electricity from anywhere they
can.

Previous EV's have had a special plug (that looks remarkably like a
petrol pump) and a control/charging box you install in your home. But
ultimately I think that people will want to plug their EV into a
standard mains connection as well. A potential big market for
"conversions" or some form of kit that allows standard power point
connection?

My friend who built her own electric car installed a standard mains
plug inside the existing fuel cap and had an extension cord in the
boot. Neat.

BTW, for those that haven't seen it, the movie "Who killed the
electric car" is well worth a watch.

Dave.
 
D

David L. Jones

But where is the "clean, safe, affordable" electricity going to come from?

There is already some existing renewable capacity on the grid, but not
enough for a mass change overnight change of course.
But as the demand for renewable energy increases, more plants will be
built, and options increase as technology improves.
For instance, they had to build new wind farms to power the new Sydney
desalination plant, as there wasn't enough existing renewable capacity
available.
I'm buying 100% renewable energy to spur on the progress, aren't you?

The goal for NZ is to be using 90% renewable energy by 2025. Australia
will be only 20% by 2020, but at least it's a start.
Not to mention "clean, safe, affordable" batteries!

Different ball game there.

Dave.
 
M

Mr.T

Don McKenzie said:
quote "there is a compelling case for automobile manufacturers to jump
in and build clean, safe, affordable electric cars for Australasia

But where is the "clean, safe, affordable" electricity going to come from?
Not to mention "clean, safe, affordable" batteries!

MrT.
 
D

Den

TT said:
Nearly 30 years ago I worked near a guy that was developing a salt water
battery system. The idea was it would either recharge as a conventional
battery does or you could go to a normal service station where the
electrolyte could be drained and then refilled as with a conventional
petrol pump. The idea was to have a solenoid operated drain cock on the
battery and the servo would have grids and a drain system that then
returned the electrolyte to a main tank for a slow recharge via solar
panels or conventional mains. It solved several problems.

I believe the idea was from Israel (lots of sun and salt there to) but I
never heard any more about it. Conspiracy theory says a major oil company
bought the patent and shelved it ;-)

This type of idea that can use renewable energy, utilise existing
infrastructure and have a safe, environmentally friendly battery system
would be a real hit. BTW if any one knows the guy I wouldn't mind a
follow up. It was Frank Parry, the brother of Parry's, the department
store in WA.

Cheers TT


Intuitively you'd think one of the plates would be eroded & consumed if the
electrolyte was renewed rather than the battery recharged. Then again
perhaps plate changes were part of the design / maintenance.


Maybe Robert Parry & it became ---> www.zbbenergy.com ?


Where I found:

"Unlike the lead acid and most other batteries, the ZESS uses electrodes
that cannot and do not take part in the reactions but merely serve as
substrates for the reactions. There is therefore no loss of performance,
unlike most rechargeable batteries, from repeated cycling causing electrode
material deterioration. During the charge cycle metallic zinc is plated from
the electrolyte solution onto the negative electrode surfaces in the cell
stacks. Bromide is then converted to Bromine at the positive electrode
surface of the cell stack and is immediately stored as a safe chemically
complexed organic phase in the electrolyte tank. When the ZESS discharges,
the metallic zinc plated on the negative electrode dissolves in the
electrolyte and is available to be plated again at the next charge cycle.
In the fully discharged state the ZESS can be left indefinitely."




What happened to the wave power test system that was to be planted on the
ocean floor off Fremantle a few years back?

For a supposed "green" community Fremantle is a very odd place, I believe
one of the main reasons wind turbines on the North Mole (harbour sea wall)
were knocked back was that they would be "unsightly".
 
D

Den

Den said:
Intuitively you'd think one of the plates would be eroded & consumed if
the electrolyte was renewed rather than the battery recharged. Then again
perhaps plate changes were part of the design / maintenance.


Maybe Robert Parry & it became ---> www.zbbenergy.com ?


Where I found:

"Unlike the lead acid and most other batteries, the ZESS uses electrodes
that cannot and do not take part in the reactions but merely serve as
substrates for the reactions. There is therefore no loss of performance,
unlike most rechargeable batteries, from repeated cycling causing
electrode material deterioration. During the charge cycle metallic zinc is
plated from the electrolyte solution onto the negative electrode surfaces
in the cell stacks. Bromide is then converted to Bromine at the positive
electrode surface of the cell stack and is immediately stored as a safe
chemically complexed organic phase in the electrolyte tank. When the ZESS
discharges, the metallic zinc plated on the negative electrode dissolves
in the electrolyte and is available to be plated again at the next charge
cycle. In the fully discharged state the ZESS can be left indefinitely."




What happened to the wave power test system that was to be planted on the
ocean floor off Fremantle a few years back?

For a supposed "green" community Fremantle is a very odd place, I believe
one of the main reasons wind turbines on the North Mole (harbour sea wall)
were knocked back was that they would be "unsightly".

ah - you are correct - there is a Frank Parry too.
 
D

David L. Jones

Intuitively you'd think one of the plates would be eroded & consumed if the
electrolyte was renewed rather than the battery recharged. Then again
perhaps plate changes were part of the design / maintenance.

Maybe Robert Parry & it became --->www.zbbenergy.com ?

Where I found:

"Unlike the lead acid and most other batteries, the ZESS uses electrodes
that cannot and do not take part in the reactions but merely serve as
substrates for the reactions. There is therefore no loss of performance,
unlike most rechargeable batteries, from repeated cycling causing electrode
material deterioration. During the charge cycle metallic zinc is plated from
the electrolyte solution onto the negative electrode surfaces in the cell
stacks. Bromide is then converted to Bromine at the positive electrode
surface of the cell stack and is immediately stored as a safe chemically
complexed organic phase in the electrolyte tank. When the ZESS discharges,
the metallic zinc plated on the negative electrode dissolves in the
electrolyte and is available to be plated again at the next charge cycle.
In the fully discharged state the ZESS can be left indefinitely."

What happened to the wave power test system that was to be planted on the
ocean floor off Fremantle a few years back?

Still going:
http://www.ceto.com.au/home.php

and
http://www.theage.com.au/national/new-wave-of-power-in-renewable-energy-market-20081004-4tyd.html
For a supposed "green" community Fremantle is a very odd place, I believe
one of the main reasons wind turbines on the North Mole (harbour sea wall)
were knocked back was that they would be "unsightly".

I was in Denham in WA a few months back and had a look at the wind
farm that supplies half of the towns power.
They look majestic sitting up there on the hill, and the towns folk
love them, they want more installed.

Flying into Germany a few years back now, it was wind farms out the
window as far as the eye could see.

Very eerie standing under them when they are rotating though!

Dave.
 
T

terryc

Nearly 30 years ago I worked near a guy that was developing a salt water
battery system. The idea was it would either recharge as a conventional
battery does or you could go to a normal service station where the
electrolyte could be drained and then refilled as with a conventional
petrol pump.

Mmm, sounds like the Salt water 'battery" that was apparently around
during WWII, but that consumed magnesium plates. The electrolyte was just
"sea water". He may have had an idea that it could be reversed.


" The idea was to have a solenoid operated drain cock on the
battery and the servo would have grids and a drain system that then
returned the electrolyte to a main tank for a slow recharge via solar
panels or conventional mains.

Is there any currently opperating system that actually works
like this now? People keep claiming it can be done with lead-acid
technology, but I suspect they are mistaken.
 
D

David L. Jones

Wouldn't it be better to use the natural and coal seam gas that will
almost certainly be used to generate the electricity, directly in the
car?

Not in the long term.
What happens when the gas runs out?
WA already has a gas crisis.

You can buy 100% renewable electrical energy. More of it is simply a
matter of demand.
A distribution system for the gas and a change to multi-fuel cars
seems preferable to me.

Electricity already has a distribution system in place, it's called
the grid.

Dave.
 
M

Mr.T

David L. Jones said:
from?

There is already some existing renewable capacity on the grid, but not
enough for a mass change overnight change of course.
The goal for NZ is to be using 90% renewable energy by 2025. Australia
will be only 20% by 2020, but at least it's a start.

Exactly. We need to meet current demand with 100% clean, renewable energy
before we can increase demand that much. Otherwise we are simply burning
coal instead of petrol. Then adding battery problems to boot!

MrT.
 
T

Trevor Wilson

David Segall said:
Wouldn't it be better to use the natural and coal seam gas that will
almost certainly be used to generate the electricity, directly in the
car? A distribution system for the gas and a change to multi-fuel cars
seems preferable to me.

**Preferable, but far less efficient. Conversion efficiencies for large,
thermal generation plants is MUCH higher than internal combustion engines
(around double). Electric motors in vehicles routinely top 80+% efficiency.
Even better, is that electric motors generate torque at zero RPM and thus
are perfectly suited to stop-start motoring. Even betterer still is that
regenerative braking can be used to extend the efficiency of the entire
vehicle still further.
 
T

Trevor Wilson

Mr.T said:
Exactly. We need to meet current demand with 100% clean, renewable energy
before we can increase demand that much. Otherwise we are simply burning
coal instead of petrol. Then adding battery problems to boot!

**Not quite. Internal combustion engines are spectacularly inefficient,
whilst thermal power stations are respectably efficient. Worse, IC engines
are arguably the worst type of motor for stop-start city use. Electric
motors are vastly more suited to such a task. A significantly smaller motor
can be used. The Prius electric motor, for instance, though only developing
50kW, delivers around 400Nm of torque. That is the kind of planet-turning
toque only achieved by V8 engines and highly tuned turbo 4 cylinder engines.
It provides the Prius with quite respectable off-the-line performance, with
minimal fuel use.
 
E

Eeyore

David L. Jones said:
You can buy 100% renewable electrical energy. More of it is simply a
matter of demand.

At a true (unsubsidised) cost of between twice to nearly ten times that of
conventionally generated electricity.

If you want it to stay subsidised at those levels your taxes are going to go up
a LOT.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Trevor said:
**Preferable, but far less efficient. Conversion efficiencies for large,
thermal generation plants is MUCH higher than internal combustion engines
(around double).

Actually it's far from that good and may even be the reverse. What do you think
those cooling towers are for at power plants. Half the energy gets 'thrown
away'.

Typical electricity generation averages around 30-33% from power plant energy
input to wall socket. Losses in battery charging may lose another 10-20% of it
too. It's not like refilling a pail of water, it's like refilling a leaky pail
of water. so you could easily be in 25% efficiency territory (not dissinilar to
a modern petrol engine) and worse as you factor in electrical losses in the
vehicle itself.

In comparison, modern diesel engine efficiency targets for new technology
engines such as ones that eliminate the traditional camshaft are in the 40%
range and large marine diesels already exceed 50% thermal efficiency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wärtsilä-Sulzer_RTA96-C
"With a 42.7 MJ/kg fuel, the efficiency is 22.1 MJ/kg / 42.7 MJ/kg = 51.7%."

Apparently MAN make one with ~ 57% efficiency.

Graham
 
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