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Zero Point Energy is no myth.

  • Thread starter The Flavored Coffee Guy
  • Start date
D

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

The said:
No, I didn't overlook the areodynamics of the situation, I am still
looking for equations to determin these and other factors, and I have
the same question you do, Would a Wimshurst Generator Work in a Vacuum?
That is a good question.

This machine uses razor blades instead of brushes, and there is no
mechanical contact. All of the power is taken off of the disk by glow
discharge, or corona discharge.
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/karlb.jpg

Therefore, even the thought of friction concerning brushes can be
eliminated in the Voss Machine, if that method of using sharp edges is
put to use to collect or deposit charges, and that reduces friction to
the bearings.

Tell you what, just make one and 'close the loop' ie get it to drive
itself from the excess energy while tapping off enough to light a bulb.
Run it for a few weeks, then get back to us.


--
Dirk

http://www.onetribe.me.uk - The UK's only occult talk show
Presented by Dirk Bruere and Marc Power on ResonanceFM 104.4
http://www.resonancefm.com
 
J

jasen

mike3 wrote:

The foil petals on Wimshurst Generator, really only represent capacitor
plates. You should always view one side as positive, or mostly
positive, and the other mostly negative. When a plate reaches a
discharge brush, it effectively neutralizes the charge potential there
in the gap between the two disks. In moving the wheel and contacting
all of these brushes in order, each capacitive plate is attempting to
stabilize with 3 different capacitve plates. All that is making it
really work starts after the instability has beaten the odds, and one
side of the disk is majorly positive, and the other majorly negative.
In theory, you should be able to do the same thing with a mechanical 8
pole 32 position rotory selector swich and a properly wired bank of
non-electrolytic capacitors, and one coil that would have a value of
.01 ohms at the resonant frequency of the pair. So, if you used 32
.01uF capacitors, you would need something like a 0.001uH coil to
represent a neutralizer bar. As long as the switching is organized in
the same fashion to for each position of the switch to play the same
role as to the brushes for the two rotating disks, the plates of any
given capacitor, treated the same as one disk or the other, and they
will charge up. That same kind of instability still exists. Two poles
would represent the brushes connect to one sphere in the spark gap,
then two more the opposing pole. 2 other contacts would represent
would represent on neutralizer bar, and the final 2 the last
neutralizer bar. Your spark gap would be a neon bulb with a 1 mega ohm
resistor in series with it.

nope. the petals move in opposite directions, it's nothing like a switched
bank of capacitors. because each time it encounters a contact it's opposite
a different other petal
 
D

default

Tell you what, just make one and 'close the loop' ie get it to drive
itself from the excess energy while tapping off enough to light a bulb.
Run it for a few weeks, then get back to us.

If he actually achieved that he'd have to be out of his mind to post
it on Usenet - It would be worth too much.
 
R

Robert Baer

Don said:
Just been rewatching the whole series of McGyver vids.

Amazing HOW BAD the physics and chemistry and electronics are.
That is Hollywood for you...
 
M

Michael A. Terrell

Don said:
Just been rewatching the whole series of McGyver vids.

Amazing HOW BAD the physics and chemistry and electronics are.


Like the crappy electronics props made with Radio Shack proto boards?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
R

Rich Grise

That is Hollywood for you...

I just saw "Stargate", the original movie again, on TeeVee. Now, the
TeeVee O'Neill is played by MacGuyver (interestingly, I've never seen
McG), but in the movie it was Kurt Russell, and he was as serious as a
heart attack - nothing like MacGuyver's O'Neill at all. And the translator
guy was, of all people, James Spader. And there was no babe on the team,
just some native girl. ;-)

One thing that bothers me about those sort of things, they glibly
talk about going to all these different galaxies. Why bother, when
there's billions and billions of stars in our own galaxy! ;-)

(and galaxies are billions and billions of times farther away, but
I guess with a stargate, that doesn't matter. ;-) )

Cheers!
Rich
 
M

MassiveProng

Aren't you overlooking another source of friction? The plates in a
Wimshurst machine rotate in air. Air adds drag.

It also provides the ions via triboelectric effect.
Do Wimshurst machines work in vacuum?

Hmmmm... Perhaps on a whim...
 
The said:
electrostatic machine/generator will spin down generating electricity
until the inertia of the rotating disks has been exhausted by friction,
and there are no fields of force playing upon the device to slow it or
stop it.

Actually, until the momentum of the rotating disks have been exhausted
by friction and the conversion to usable energy. If you manage to build
one you'll find that installing a heavier load on its output (like say
an electric oven) will make it spin down much faster than a light load.
The mechanics of how kinetic energy is converted is very much different
than a magnetic generator but the end result is the same.

Talk is cheap, you can argue and write equations all day yet they may
or may not represent what happens in the real world. Get or build one
of these and run the experiment I described above and you'll see.
 
M

MassiveProng

Does not!


Gasoline can in back of truck resting on plastic truck bed liner with
no carbon. Can takes on charge FROM THE AIR passing over it.

The reason it takes on a charge is due to the triboelectric effect.
The same reason that pulling a piece of tape away from a surface
introduces charge across the tape surface.

Lifting a mere sheet of paper from a desktop surface does the same
thing. That's just how two insulators behave near each other.

Better ground that can, yourself, and the pump, before grabbing that
pump handle.
 
The said:
Unless, you really have some real electronics experience, you won't see
the facts involved with the following devices actually being Zero Point
Energy Devices. But, the truth, as we search for the unknown, old
school, really beat us to the punch.

First, look at the wiring diagram/schematic for a Wimshurst
Electrostatic Generator:
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/wims.gif

Electrostatic "generators" are transducers; they use input mechanical
work to separate electrical charges. If no work is input, no charges
get separated. Let it run down, and they recombine through leakage.

No connection with zero-point energy.

You want "zero-point _field_" energy, which is different.

Find a copy of "Analysis of zero-point electromagnetic energy and
Casimir forces
in conducting rectangular cavities" by G. Gordon Maclay (Physical
Review A, Volume 61, 052110) and read it. You can download it online
but it'll cost money; any University should have a library that carries
Phys. Rev. in dead tree format you can read and copy for much less if
not for free.

If you can't follow all the math, just look carefully at figs. 16
&17.

The point is that the usual cited embodiment of the Casimir Effect,
two close-spaced conducting plates, is a special case of the general
idea of bounding a volume of space so as to exclude EM modes that won't
fit within, giving the enclosed volume a negative energy density
compared to an equal but unbounded volume. Another special case is
cuboidal cavities, which neatly get rid of the edge effects of the
(assumed) infinite conducting planes of the usual version.

Specifically, the figures explain that two identical enclosed
volumes, one pizza-box shaped, the other hatbox-shaped, will have
_different_ negative energy densities, thus different absolute energy
values at the contained wavelengths. So, a thought experiment; consider
them as ordinary RF cavity resonators, poke holes in them, and insert
conductors so as to link the field lines of one or more of the
contained modes. then connect the wires through a resistive load;
obviously, power will flow through the load.

There are a few minor engineering impediments to realizing this idea
in hardware; the Casimir Effect works best with close spacing, hence
the cavities will be rather small. You won't get much power per pair,
so you need to series/parallel many. Also it works better the better
the walls conduct, so you want superconductors. Also, the size of the
cavities means you'll be working at really short wavelengths where
rectifiers are hard to come by.

So, if you have access to, or know someone who has access to
equipment for making semiconductor-gate-scale RF hardware out of
superconductors, you're in business.

Let us know how it works out.

Mark Fergerson
 
The said:
Unless, you really have some real electronics experience, you won't see
the facts involved with the following devices actually being Zero Point
Energy Devices. But, the truth, as we search for the unknown, old
school, really beat us to the punch.

First, look at the wiring diagram/schematic for a Wimshurst
Electrostatic Generator:
http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/wims.gif

Electrostatic "generators" are transducers; they use input mechanical
work to separate electrical charges. If no work is input, no charges
get separated. Let it run down, and they recombine through leakage.

No connection with zero-point energy.

You want "zero-point _field_" energy, which is different.

Find a copy of "Analysis of zero-point electromagnetic energy and
Casimir forces
in conducting rectangular cavities" by G. Gordon Maclay (Physical
Review A, Volume 61, 052110) and read it. You can download it online
but it'll cost money; any University should have a library that carries
Phys. Rev. in dead tree format you can read and copy for much less if
not for free.

If you can't follow all the math, just look carefully at figs. 16
&17.

The point is that the usual cited embodiment of the Casimir Effect,
two close-spaced conducting plates, is a special case of the general
idea of bounding a volume of space so as to exclude EM modes that won't
fit within, giving the enclosed volume a negative energy density
compared to an equal but unbounded volume. Another special case is
cuboidal cavities, which neatly get rid of the edge effects of the
(assumed) infinite conducting planes of the usual version.

Specifically, the figures explain that two identical enclosed
volumes, one pizza-box shaped, the other hatbox-shaped, will have
_different_ negative energy densities, thus different absolute energy
values at the contained wavelengths. So, a thought experiment; consider
them as ordinary RF cavity resonators, poke holes in them, and insert
conductors so as to link the field lines of one or more of the
contained modes. then connect the wires through a resistive load;
obviously, power will flow through the load.

There are a few minor engineering impediments to realizing this idea
in hardware; the Casimir Effect works best with close spacing, hence
the cavities will be rather small. You won't get much power per pair,
so you need to series/parallel many. Also it works better the better
the walls conduct, so you want superconductors. Also, the size of the
cavities means you'll be working at really short wavelengths where
rectifiers are hard to come by.

So, if you have access to, or know someone who has access to
equipment for making semiconductor-gate-scale RF hardware out of
superconductors, you're in business.

Let us know how it works out.

Mark Fergerson
 
R

Rich Grise

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 08:34:24 -0800, John Larkin


Gasoline can in back of truck resting on plastic truck bed liner with
no carbon. Can takes on charge FROM THE AIR passing over it.

The reason it takes on a charge is due to the triboelectric effect.
The same reason that pulling a piece of tape away from a surface
introduces charge across the tape surface.

Lifting a mere sheet of paper from a desktop surface does the same
thing. That's just how two insulators behave near each other.

Better ground that can, yourself, and the pump, before grabbing that
pump handle.

Is that how Wint-o-green Life Savers light up in your mouth? Or is
that more piezoelectric?

I couldn't find a total technical description of how a Wimshurst machine
moves the electrons, but for now I'm guessing triboelectric; John L said
that they work even better in vacuum; but I did find a description of
the Van der Graaf, and it said that ionized air was involved, albeit
they did say triboelectric rather than friction.

So, would a Van der Graaf work in a vacuum?

And just what _is_ the theory of operation of a Wimshurst?

Thanks,
Rich
 
D

Don Lancaster

Rich said:
Is that how Wint-o-green Life Savers light up in your mouth? Or is
that more piezoelectric?
Thanks,
Rich

Nope.
That is related to thermolumiscence, which is a whole different ball game.
And an utterly fascinating one.

Highly useful for geological and archaeological dating.
Last paper I did on it was in 1964 or so.

Brief summary at http://www.tinaja.com/glib/resbn63.pdf


--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
 
M

MassiveProng

Nope.
That is related to thermolumiscence, which is a whole different ball game.
And an utterly fascinating one.

Highly useful for geological and archaeological dating.
Last paper I did on it was in 1964 or so.

Brief summary at http://www.tinaja.com/glib/resbn63.pdf


It is referred to as TRIBOluminescense.

There is no thermal involved with a bite pressure.
 
I

Ian

Don Lancaster said:
Nope.
That is related to thermolumiscence, which is a whole different ball game.
And an utterly fascinating one.

Highly useful for geological and archaeological dating.
Last paper I did on it was in 1964 or so.

Brief summary at http://www.tinaja.com/glib/resbn63.pdf
Hi Don:
Just ahead of the thermoluminescence bit you cover solitons. It turns
out that there's a plaque on a bridge over the Union canal a mile or so
from my house commemorating the first observation of a soliton.
For anyone in the area who wants to take a look, it is on the west
side of a bridge a couple of miles to the west of the outskirts of
Edinburgh, near Hermiston (that's Scotland, in case anyone has
re-used the place names ;-).

Regards
Ian
 
R

Rich Grise

electrostatic induction and physical transportation of charge.

Right, but I don't get what does the inducing? Just the movement of the
segments past the brushes? Do they have to touch? I guess it wouldn't
make much sense if they didn't, but in the Van Der Graaf description
they invoke ionized air. Does a Van Der Graaf also work in a vacuum?

Thanks,
Rich
 
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