What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?

[Trevor Wilson]

Not really, remember that producing a new Volt and the solar array required
to power it would produce more CO2 than driving a $500 20 year old Commodore
(for instance) for the life of the Volt and the solar array.

**Interesting. Of course you have some data to back that claim?

 

[Clocky]

Honda HOME Refuelling Station

http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2010/08/honda-refueling-station-ed01.jpg


Electrolysis is very efficient.

You put 2 electrodes in distilled water.

RAINWATER WILL WORK!

add a pinch of salt for catalyst!

you get Hydrogen bubbles on one wire and Oxygen on the other!

The electrical power required to generate the hydrogen is greater than the
amount of hydrogen produced. It's not efficient. And it's slow, so very
slow.

H2 is the perfect 100% no losses, works forever, from water, BATTERY!

IN scuba sized Tanks!

It would take years to produce enough hydrogen to run a hydrogen car for one
day using a 12V battery!

 

[Clocky]

**Interesting. Of course you have some data to back that claim?

The carbon footprint of building a new car is pretty well documented.
Driving an existing car that is already older than the life expectancy of
the typical electric/hybrid obviously reduces your carbon footprint.

Then there is the fact that an electric car can't pull the skin off a
custard.

 

[Sylvia Else]

**Thinking outside the box over the weekend. Let's say you plonk a dirty
great PV array on your roof in a year or two. Then you buy yourself a
Holden Volt. During the day, you plug your Volt into the power supplied
by the PV array. Given the fact that you are (in theory) a typical
Australian driver, your driving is limited to around 40km/day. That
suggests you will never use anything but renewable energy to power your
car. That would result in a useful reduction in CO2 emissions. If
several million car owners did the same thing, the results would be
significant.

It's the same problem. There will be days on which the sun doesn't
shine, and you'll then charge your Volt off the grid, which has to have
generation capacity in place to allow for that. If everyone charged
their Volts off the grid every day, then more efficient generation
capacity would be used than for the situation where Volts are only
charged off grid when the sun isn't shining.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

**The 90% figure may be the theoretical figure. The actual figure is far
lower.

You shouldn't put much store in what Graham says I said last year, since
he's unable even to track what I've said in my previous posting.

Sylvia

 

[F Murtz]

**Thinking outside the box over the weekend. Let's say you plonk a dirty
great PV array on your roof in a year or two. Then you buy yourself a
Holden Volt. During the day, you plug your Volt into the power supplied
by the PV array. Given the fact that you are (in theory) a typical
Australian driver, your driving is limited to around 40km/day. That
suggests you will never use anything but renewable energy to power your
car. That would result in a useful reduction in CO2 emissions. If
several million car owners did the same thing, the results would be
significant.

What a wonderful idea, get all the cars off the road, given that you
will be charging them at the time that most use them.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

It's the same problem. There will be days on which the sun doesn't
shine, and you'll then charge your Volt off the grid, which has to have
generation capacity in place to allow for that. If everyone charged
their Volts off the grid every day, then more efficient generation
capacity would be used than for the situation where Volts are only
charged off grid when the sun isn't shining.

Sylvia.

**Let's review the facts:

* Not ALL cars are used every day to drive 40km. In my case, a 40km
range would last me almost a week.
* I suggested (but did not explicitly state) that the PV array would be
dedicated to charge the battery of the Volt (though it could be another
electric car).

 

[Trevor Wilson]

The costs involved simply don't add up compared to a similar sized
petrol or diesel vehicle.

**Strawman. Further, as oil costs rise and becomes scarcer, other forms
of transport will be more viable. Electric vehicles are likely to fall
in price, once supply exceeds demand.

Unless something has changed dramatically, why would you buy a
western made/designed vehicle, when for close to a generation
Japanese product has run rings around them in just about every area
including quality, longevity, price, resale value, comfort and
economy ?

**Personally, I wouldn't TOUCH a US built automobile (well, except for a
'64 Mustang, maybe). There would need to be a seriously convincing
argument to buy a European car as well. The Japanese and Koreans
(presently) have the market to themselves.

Either way, electric vehicles are likely to become ubiquitous in the
near future and the Volt, particularly, is an excellent design exercise.
It uses the strenghts of the electric motive system, along with an
intelligently utilised petrol engine. For my part, I expect we'll see a
lot of similar systems used in the near future, but with an even lower
emission, more efficient Diesel engine. Probably around 500 ~ 1,000cc in
capacity.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

The carbon footprint of building a new car is pretty well documented.
Driving an existing car that is already older than the life expectancy of
the typical electric/hybrid obviously reduces your carbon footprint.

**So, driving an old electric/hybrid is the best of all options. I get
your point.

Then there is the fact that an electric car can't pull the skin off a
custard.

**Really? How about this:

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/

3.7 secs to 100kph is respectable acceleration in anyone's language.

Then, of course, there is this one (not yet for sale):

http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx

Under 5 secs to 100kph is quicker than lots of vehicles.

 

[terryc]

**Thinking outside the box over the weekend. Let's say you plonk a dirty
great PV array on your roof in a year or two. Then you buy yourself a
Holden Volt. During the day, you plug your Volt into the power supplied
by the PV array.

Umm, what is the point of having the Volt?
Is this for people who are at home during the day?

 

[terryc]

You're reverse engineering your arguments with zero facts to fit the
current climate.

Isn't experience a bitch, but don't let that stop you actually builting it.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Umm, what is the point of having the Volt?

**You would need to ask the people who the Volt that question. For many
owners, no petrol will be required, except under unusual circumstances.

Is this for people who are at home during the day?

**I merely supplied a scenario where the Volt could be charged, with no
extra burdens placed on the grid and at no cost to the owners. Many
vehicles are garaged during the day and used to (say) drop the (lazy)
kids at school, do the shopping, etc.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

You're reverse engineering your arguments with zero facts to fit the
current climate.

**No. Making hydrogen from electricity is presently extremely inefficient.

I agree if you have a low KM range the current technology might
provide a mediocre cost benefit charging your own $10,000 battery way
under full capacity.

The battery technology used in the Volt is in it's early days. Battery
costs should fall with increasing production quantities. It is churlish
to use the production costs of a relatively new technology with that
which has been in production for more than 100 years. In 1960, the cost
of a field effect transistor was measured in the hundreds of Dollars.
Now they cost far less than a Dollar. As battery production is ramped
up, costs will fall.

The hybrid cars are PR stunt. Dumb idea having 2 engines!

*Why? An IC engine has the ability to use the enormous chemical energy
available in typical hydrocarbon fuels, but relatively poor torque
characteristics, at low RPM. Electric motors, OTOH, develop maximum
torque at zero RPM, thus allowing for excellent stop-start motoring. An
electric motor has an additional advantage in allowing for the recovery
of lost energy during braking.

Remember when the concept was out they would run off braking power
from Brisbane to Perth and back on 1 tank!

**I never heard that claim.

 

[Sylvia Else]

**Let's review the facts:

* Not ALL cars are used every day to drive 40km. In my case, a 40km
range would last me almost a week.
* I suggested (but did not explicitly state) that the PV array would be
dedicated to charge the battery of the Volt (though it could be another
electric car).

I still don't see that changes anything unless you are willing to forgo
the use of your car when you've used up the charge, or run it on its
petrol engine.

You might be willing, but if so I can't see most people being like you.
Most will charge it from the grid if there's no sunlight, and that
causes the problem discussed in this thread.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

huh?

good agument when I remember what you said and you don't

why don't you just cite the figure,

Huh? How did I become responsible for citing figures just because you
claim, without any evidence, that I've previously cited them. My
postings get archived. If you think I've cited something, post a URL for it.

you said 85% or 90% efficient by memory.

Previously you asserted I'd said 90%. Now it's 85% or 90%. What does
that say about your memory?

electrolysis is on par with charging a bettery in efficiency!

http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2010/08/honda-refueling-station-ed01.jpg

the picture is of a home hydrogen fuel pump!

I won't say anything if you just deny everything I say!

OK.

Sylvia.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

I still don't see that changes anything unless you are willing to forgo
the use of your car when you've used up the charge, or run it on its
petrol engine.

**Your initial comments (correctly) centred on the ramifications of
using PV cells and their usefulness WRT grid connected power. My
suggestion was to not bother with connecting the PV cells to the grid at
all, but to, instead, use the PV cells to keep an electric vehicle
charged. This would have several benefits:

* Reduce CO2 emissions from the vehicle.
* Have no impact on the grid.
* Reduce demands on the grid.

You might be willing, but if so I can't see most people being like you.
Most will charge it from the grid if there's no sunlight, and that
causes the problem discussed in this thread.

Sylvia.

**No one suggested that PV cells were a panacea, but there are other
ways to skin a cat.

 

[Clocky]

**So, driving an old electric/hybrid is the best of all options. I get
your point.


**Really? How about this:

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/

3.7 secs to 100kph is respectable acceleration in anyone's language.

Then, of course, there is this one (not yet for sale):

http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx

Under 5 secs to 100kph is quicker than lots of vehicles.

Yes, but as revs increase the torque tapers off to nothing making them
completely useless for towing (beyond taking off perhaps where maximum
torque is available at 0 revs) or high speed acceleration.

The X might be able to carry 7 midgets but you won't get anything like the
range or performance out of the thing with a load like that.

 

[Sylvia Else]

**Your initial comments (correctly) centred on the ramifications of
using PV cells and their usefulness WRT grid connected power. My
suggestion was to not bother with connecting the PV cells to the grid at
all, but to, instead, use the PV cells to keep an electric vehicle
charged. This would have several benefits:

* Reduce CO2 emissions from the vehicle.
* Have no impact on the grid.
* Reduce demands on the grid.


**No one suggested that PV cells were a panacea, but there are other
ways to skin a cat.

One needs to take a pragmatic view. Some people may be willing to adjust
their lives to address CO2 emissions, but most people will simply follow
the path of least financial resistance.

The Government needs to ensure that that path doesn't represent an
increase in total cost without a commensurate environmental gain. As
things stand, that's very much in doubt.

Sylvia.

 

[keithr]

**You would need to ask the people who the Volt that question. For many
owners, no petrol will be required, except under unusual circumstances.


**I merely supplied a scenario where the Volt could be charged, with no
extra burdens placed on the grid and at no cost to the owners. Many
vehicles are garaged during the day and used to (say) drop the (lazy)
kids at school, do the shopping, etc.

With the Volt going to cost $60k plus the cost of the panels, the
economics are highly suspect.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Spot on as always!

"Sylvia gave a figure of 90% last year or around there."

Herc

That would be "Sylvia gave a figure of 90% or around there last year."

I'm still waiting to see you provide any evidence.

Sylvia.