what electronic device could you build 3000 years ago?

[Hank]

Ok, take a flight of imagination and say you were thrown back in time 3000 years
with absolutely nothing from modern times.

The first thing you could do to impress local rulers and establish a position of
power would be to introduce gunpowder and the projectile weapon (I guess if you
are anti-gun you are a bit screwed...sorry about that).

I would think a valuable piece of equipment would be a transmitter and reciever.
Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials and
resources available at that time?

For the transmitter, I am guessing an inductor/spark gap device would be
possible, assuming you could extrude wire from copper and insulate it with
something (tree sap?). Batteries should not be *too* hard.

For the reciever, you might have to resort to something like the coherer thingy
that came about before diodes. Too lazy to go look it up, but IIRC it was a
tube with metal filings inside that was connected to a long antenna. The
filings would conduct when the antenna recieved a strong electromagnetic wave.
Something like that.

I am thinking that vacuum tubes would be very hard to make...you would need a
vacuum pump, glass (maybe not too hard...not sure I know how to make good glass,
heh heh), a tungsten filament (aren't they coated with thorium or something?),
and other stuff....I don't even know if I could make a vacuum tube today with
today's tools without consulting a book or three. Perhaps you could make a
germanium diode using the cat whisker technique?

Anyone know of a fictional book that deals with this situation? I think it
would be an interesting read.

 

[Activ8]

Ok, take a flight of imagination and say you were thrown back in time 3000 years
with absolutely nothing from modern times.

The first thing you could do to impress local rulers and establish a position of
power would be to introduce gunpowder and the projectile weapon (I guess if you
are anti-gun you are a bit screwed...sorry about that).

I saw a picture of an ancient ray gun zapping a ship. It's thought
to have possibly been a focusing mirror.

I would think a valuable piece of equipment would be a transmitter and reciever.
Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials and
resources available at that time?

For the transmitter, I am guessing an inductor/spark gap device would be
possible, assuming you could extrude wire from copper and insulate it with
something (tree sap?). Batteries should not be *too* hard.

Quite possible. I read that the biblical Cain (name for *who?* in
the ancient Sumerian?) live in the bronze age.

For the reciever, you might have to resort to something like the coherer thingy
that came about before diodes. Too lazy to go look it up, but IIRC it was a
tube with metal filings inside that was connected to a long antenna. The
filings would conduct when the antenna recieved a strong electromagnetic wave.
Something like that.

I am thinking that vacuum tubes would be very hard to make...you would need a
vacuum pump,

After you awe them with your gunpowder, just get your slaves to suck
on tubes attached to a manifold.

glass (maybe not too hard...not sure I know how to make good glass,
heh heh), a tungsten filament (aren't they coated with thorium or something?),
and other stuff....I don't even know if I could make a vacuum tube today with
today's tools without consulting a book or three. Perhaps you could make a
germanium diode using the cat whisker technique?

Chunk of quartz would do it, too.

Anyone know of a fictional book that deals with this situation? I think it
would be an interesting read.

No, but also in the Sitchin series, he mentions the word "oracle" or
"talking stone". It's quite possible that when you arrived back in
time, you'd be a neanderthal in comparison to those living in the
time.

 

[Don Pearce]

Ok, take a flight of imagination and say you were thrown back in time 3000 years
with absolutely nothing from modern times.

The first thing you could do to impress local rulers and establish a position of
power would be to introduce gunpowder and the projectile weapon (I guess if you
are anti-gun you are a bit screwed...sorry about that).

I would think a valuable piece of equipment would be a transmitter and reciever.
Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials and
resources available at that time?

For the transmitter, I am guessing an inductor/spark gap device would be
possible, assuming you could extrude wire from copper and insulate it with
something (tree sap?). Batteries should not be *too* hard.

For the reciever, you might have to resort to something like the coherer thingy
that came about before diodes. Too lazy to go look it up, but IIRC it was a
tube with metal filings inside that was connected to a long antenna. The
filings would conduct when the antenna recieved a strong electromagnetic wave.
Something like that.

I am thinking that vacuum tubes would be very hard to make...you would need a
vacuum pump, glass (maybe not too hard...not sure I know how to make good glass,
heh heh), a tungsten filament (aren't they coated with thorium or something?),
and other stuff....I don't even know if I could make a vacuum tube today with
today's tools without consulting a book or three. Perhaps you could make a
germanium diode using the cat whisker technique?

Anyone know of a fictional book that deals with this situation? I think it
would be an interesting read.

One of the reasons why technical developments tend to be spasmodic is
that everything depends on everything else. Until good glass
technology was there, and good vacuum pumps too, and metallurgy to
allow even something as simple as putting a connection through the
glass without cracking it, then the valve didn't happen. Most
inventions have - to quote Newton - stood on the shoulders of giants.

I suspect that if you were suddenly thrown back 3000 years, you would
be hopelessly outclassed by the locals, and would probably be dead
pretty soon. They certainly would not be impressed by anything you had
to say - unless it was rooted in the culture of the time and about to
be said anyway. Then of course it would have to come from somebody
with a bit of credibility, and not this lunatic who knew nothing about
anything.

Any book you find that turns the time traveller into some kind of king
is talking through its rear end.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

 

[Activ8]

<snip>

You could generate enough static electricity to make a cattle prod
kinda thingy.

 

[Tim Wescott]

One of the reasons why technical developments tend to be spasmodic is
that everything depends on everything else. Until good glass
technology was there, and good vacuum pumps too, and metallurgy to
allow even something as simple as putting a connection through the
glass without cracking it, then the valve didn't happen. Most
inventions have - to quote Newton - stood on the shoulders of giants.

I suspect that if you were suddenly thrown back 3000 years, you would
be hopelessly outclassed by the locals, and would probably be dead
pretty soon. They certainly would not be impressed by anything you had
to say - unless it was rooted in the culture of the time and about to
be said anyway. Then of course it would have to come from somebody
with a bit of credibility, and not this lunatic who knew nothing about
anything.

Any book you find that turns the time traveller into some kind of king
is talking through its rear end.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

I suspect that you could get away with it, but only with a bunch of
flim-flam or a _very_ sympathetic patron. Leo Frankowski wrote a fairly
believable "man in the past" sort of story, but the hero originally
establishes credibility because he's a champion fencer in the 20th
century, and because he's getting help from the folks who put him into
the 13th.

Other than that, and without lots of the aforementioned flim-flam, I
suspect that if you survived your first exploding gun barrel the locals
would burn you on the stake. If you made it past that hurdle to the
batteries, spark gap and galena crystals necessary for radios (they were
making copper wire 3000 years ago, and you can use silk for insulation
by the way) _then_ you'd either be burned on the stake or have your neck
quietly sliced by whatever guild makes money off of transporting messages.

 

[John Larkin]

Ok, take a flight of imagination and say you were thrown back in time 3000 years
with absolutely nothing from modern times.

The first thing you could do to impress local rulers and establish a position of
power would be to introduce gunpowder and the projectile weapon (I guess if you
are anti-gun you are a bit screwed...sorry about that).

I would think a valuable piece of equipment would be a transmitter and reciever.
Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials and
resources available at that time?

For the transmitter, I am guessing an inductor/spark gap device would be
possible, assuming you could extrude wire from copper and insulate it with
something (tree sap?). Batteries should not be *too* hard.

For the reciever, you might have to resort to something like the coherer thingy
that came about before diodes. Too lazy to go look it up, but IIRC it was a
tube with metal filings inside that was connected to a long antenna. The
filings would conduct when the antenna recieved a strong electromagnetic wave.
Something like that.

I am thinking that vacuum tubes would be very hard to make...you would need a
vacuum pump, glass (maybe not too hard...not sure I know how to make good glass,
heh heh), a tungsten filament (aren't they coated with thorium or something?),
and other stuff....I don't even know if I could make a vacuum tube today with
today's tools without consulting a book or three. Perhaps you could make a
germanium diode using the cat whisker technique?

Anyone know of a fictional book that deals with this situation? I think it
would be an interesting read.

Mark Twain, "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court."

John

 

[Hank]

Mark Twain, "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court."

John

I forgot about that one. Never read it, but now it is on my to do list. But
isn't Twain mostly using the story to attack more modern problems in government?

Anyway, thanks.

 

[Guy Macon]

Mark Twain, "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court."

I noticed something interesting about that book. Nearly everyone thinks
that they read it through as a child, and it has a very memorable ending,
but fewer than 5% of them can remember what happened in the end. My theory
is that the movie erases the memories of the book.

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

Mark Twain, "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court."

http://www.gutenberg.net/etext93/yanke13.txt

Wow. They even have downloadable audiobooks now. But, it's a
synthesized voice.

 

[Richard Henry]

Mark Twain, "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court."

I recall a science-fiction book I read when a child - "Twilight of the Gods"
or something like that. Dwarves were sent out to mine uranium ore, I
believe.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

One of the reasons why technical developments tend to be spasmodic is
that everything depends on everything else. Until good glass
technology was there, and good vacuum pumps too, and metallurgy to
allow even something as simple as putting a connection through the
glass without cracking it, then the valve didn't happen. Most
inventions have - to quote Newton - stood on the shoulders of giants.

I suspect that if you were suddenly thrown back 3000 years, you would
be hopelessly outclassed by the locals, and would probably be dead
pretty soon. They certainly would not be impressed by anything you had
to say - unless it was rooted in the culture of the time and about to
be said anyway. Then of course it would have to come from somebody
with a bit of credibility, and not this lunatic who knew nothing about
anything.

If you could avoid being killed right off as some sort of oddball, you
would be better off impressing them with something like a trebuchet or
crossbow. Maybe even a wheeled cart.

 

[Al]

Ok, take a flight of imagination and say you were thrown back in time 3000
years
with absolutely nothing from modern times.

The first thing you could do to impress local rulers and establish a position
of
power would be to introduce gunpowder and the projectile weapon (I guess if
you
are anti-gun you are a bit screwed...sorry about that).

I would think a valuable piece of equipment would be a transmitter and
reciever.
Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials
and
resources available at that time?

For the transmitter, I am guessing an inductor/spark gap device would be
possible, assuming you could extrude wire from copper and insulate it with
something (tree sap?). Batteries should not be *too* hard.

For the reciever, you might have to resort to something like the coherer
thingy
that came about before diodes. Too lazy to go look it up, but IIRC it was a
tube with metal filings inside that was connected to a long antenna. The
filings would conduct when the antenna recieved a strong electromagnetic
wave.
Something like that.

I am thinking that vacuum tubes would be very hard to make...you would need a
vacuum pump, glass (maybe not too hard...not sure I know how to make good
glass,
heh heh), a tungsten filament (aren't they coated with thorium or
something?),
and other stuff....I don't even know if I could make a vacuum tube today with
today's tools without consulting a book or three. Perhaps you could make a
germanium diode using the cat whisker technique?

Anyone know of a fictional book that deals with this situation? I think it
would be an interesting read.

It wouldn't be electronic, but there is no reason why someone who worked
with gold could not have made a recording machine ala Edison. I don't
think there is anything in the device which could not be fabricated by
an anceint Egyptian. Instead of using bees wax, a thin foil of gold
could be easily written up by a quill attached to a drum head. And to
rotate a cylinder by hand on a screw would not be impossible. Only the
theory was lacking.

Al

 

[Adrian Jansen]

Mark Twain - A Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

Not as far back in time, but covers some of the problems, and a good read.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen
J & K MicroSystems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control

 

[John Swenson]

Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials and
resources available at that time?

This is not exactly what you're looking for, but about once a year or
so, somebody asks about making homemade IC's in their garage, etc.
Most of the 3000 year old electronics technology is tranducers of some
sort... But how do you get some gain? That's what makes electronics
interesting. Semiconductors would be impossible, vacuum tubes would
be difficult even 100 years ago, so what else could be used to get
some gain? Somebody already mentioned the coherer, that's one
possibility.

Something I've always wanted to try is to to attempt build an crude
audio amplifier, without using a semiconductor or a vacuum tube, just
using a relay. Just run it as an relaxation oscillator, maybe at a
kHz... a capacitor across the coil, fed from supply through the
normally closed contact, etc. The contacts might be good for a few
seconds... Modulate the trip point to the coil with the input audio
voltage, to achieve a crude sort of pulse width modulation out to the
speaker. Kind of like the old regenerative receivers, with the
switching frequency up out of the audio band, or filtered out.

Maybe a good science fair project for my 6 year old when he's a little
older. It would probably make a decent spark gap transmitter, also.


John

 

[Scott Stephens]

Ok, take a flight of imagination and say you were thrown back in time 3000 years
with absolutely nothing from modern times.

The first thing you could do to impress local rulers and establish a position of
power would be to introduce gunpowder and the projectile weapon (I guess if you
are anti-gun you are a bit screwed...sorry about that).

That's right. The best way to win the hearts and minds of primitive
savages is to teach them how to kill and dominate neighboring primitive
savages.

Use your superior knowledge of math and statistics to rob them gambling.

I would think a valuable piece of equipment would be a transmitter and reciever.
Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials and
resources available at that time?

The 2000 year old Babylonian battery:
http://www.pilotguides.com/destinat...th_africa/iran/iraqs_mysterious_treasures.php

I am thinking that vacuum tubes would be very hard to make...you would need a
vacuum pump, glass (maybe not too hard...not sure I know how to make good glass,
heh heh), a tungsten filament (aren't they coated with thorium or something?),
and other stuff....I don't even know if I could make a vacuum tube today with
today's tools without consulting a book or three. Perhaps you could make a
germanium diode using the cat whisker technique?

Google for Marconi and "coherer".



--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

 

[Scott Stephens]

One of the reasons why technical developments tend to be spasmodic is
that everything depends on everything else. Until good glass
technology was there, and good vacuum pumps too,

Glass technology needs simple clean soda and sand. With patience,
mercury pumps can produce a good vacuum with the aid of a getter.

and metallurgy to

allow even something as simple as putting a connection through the
glass without cracking it, then the valve didn't happen. Most
inventions have - to quote Newton - stood on the shoulders of giants.

Burke wrote some books a TV series called "Connections".

I suspect that if you were suddenly thrown back 3000 years, you would
be hopelessly outclassed by the locals, and would probably be dead
pretty soon. They certainly would not be impressed by anything you had
to say - unless it was rooted in the culture of the time and about to
be said anyway.

I understand ancient knowledge of math and statistics was so poor, any
of todays high school grads could easily get rich. Provided they hired
the muscle to defend them from their sore losers.

I would sell loaded dice

Any book you find that turns the time traveller into some kind of king
is talking through its rear end.

If you could send information back through time, let alone matter, you
could become wealthy. Not to mention selling 'free' energy.

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

 

[Ben Bradley]

This is not exactly what you're looking for, but about once a year or
so, somebody asks about making homemade IC's in their garage, etc.
Most of the 3000 year old electronics technology is tranducers of some
sort... But how do you get some gain?

You can get gain from two transducers. Mechanical amplifiers are
relatively easy to make: it's effectively an electromagnetic
loudspeaker without a cone driving a carbon microphone element.
There's an article on it on Douglas Self's site:

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/COMMS/mechamp/mechamp.htm

Of course, if you want gain at RF frequencies, that won't work and
you need something else.

That's what makes electronics
interesting. Semiconductors would be impossible, vacuum tubes would
be difficult even 100 years ago,

They weren't that diffucult even 100 years ago (it appears the
"Fleming valve" or diode tube was made 100 years ago). It was even
earlier that Thomas Edison discovered that electrons will go from a
filament to a plate in an evacuated light bulb, but not the other way.
If he had thought more about it, he could have added a "grid" and been
decades ahead of his time:

http://www.pbs.org/transistor/science/events/vacuumt.html

 

[Roger Gt]

The Babylonians had Battery's almost that long ago. Used them to
deliver shocks for entertainment at parties.

 

[Ban]

I suspect that if you were suddenly thrown back 3000 years, you would
be hopelessly outclassed by the locals, and would probably be dead
pretty soon. They certainly would not be impressed by anything you had
to say - unless it was rooted in the culture of the time and about to
be said anyway. Then of course it would have to come from somebody
with a bit of credibility, and not this lunatic who knew nothing about
anything.

You are absolutely right Don, and more even as you do not need to go back,
you can see the American attitude (we are superiour) in Iraq or whereever
they decide to bring their progress.
If you tell Socrates or whoever you meet in that time about having spend
more than half of your live in front of the TV looking at brutal films or
reality shows he will declare you nuts.
I wonder why people can think this time gives better life? Today we have IMO
the lowest intelligence and are the laziest in the whole history of man. If
a visitor from space sees our madness and effort to destroy and exploit this
wonderful planet, he will disgustedly turn back immediately.

Hank, maybe you meet Buddha or Mahavir or Diogenes or some other Sage, you
will not even recognize the beauty of this amount of consciousness. At least
Alexander the Great realized that:

Alexander had heard about Diogenes, who lived by the riverside near Athens.
So he went to visit him. Soon he reached the banks and saw the sage lying
naked in the morning sun. He was overwhelmed by his beauty and remember
Alexander was a very cute guy himself and much younger. So he stepped near,
greeted Diogenes and asked him:
I can see the beauty of you and appreciate it. When I have conquered the
world I will do the same as you. Diogenes answered, why wait so long,
downstream there is another barrel, you can go immediately. No- first I have
to conquer the world and then I can rest. But tell me, what can I do for
you? Any whish you have I can grant you, because I'm the most powerful man
on earth. Well, said Diogenes, I have only one wish. If you could step aside
a bit please, cause you are shading the sun.

Hank, become more like a Diogenes and less of Alexander...

 

[Gnekker]

Ok, take a flight of imagination and say you were thrown back in time 3000 years
with absolutely nothing from modern times.

The first thing you could do to impress local rulers and establish a position of
power would be to introduce gunpowder and the projectile weapon (I guess if you
are anti-gun you are a bit screwed...sorry about that).

<snip>

I guess that you will die too soon to worry about electronic - Our immune
system is too weak to fight aggressive bacteria/virus/whatewer without
vaccines, antibiotics, vitamins etc. that we are using these days.