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what electronic device could you build 3000 years ago?

N

N. Thornton

Hank said:
Ok, take a flight of imagination and say you were thrown back in time 3000 years
with absolutely nothing from modern times.

The first thing you could do to impress local rulers and establish a position of
power would be to introduce gunpowder and the projectile weapon (I guess if you
are anti-gun you are a bit screwed...sorry about that).

I would think a valuable piece of equipment would be a transmitter and reciever.
Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials and
resources available at that time?

For the transmitter, I am guessing an inductor/spark gap device would be
possible, assuming you could extrude wire from copper and insulate it with
something (tree sap?). Batteries should not be *too* hard.

For the reciever, you might have to resort to something like the coherer thingy
that came about before diodes. Too lazy to go look it up, but IIRC it was a
tube with metal filings inside that was connected to a long antenna. The
filings would conduct when the antenna recieved a strong electromagnetic wave.
Something like that.

I am thinking that vacuum tubes would be very hard to make...you would need a
vacuum pump, glass (maybe not too hard...not sure I know how to make good glass,
heh heh), a tungsten filament (aren't they coated with thorium or something?),
and other stuff....I don't even know if I could make a vacuum tube today with
today's tools without consulting a book or three. Perhaps you could make a
germanium diode using the cat whisker technique?

Anyone know of a fictional book that deals with this situation? I think it
would be an interesting read.


To make things would take time and resources. Your first problem would
be surviving until you got those resources, made your device, and got
someone hooked with it. That might be tough in a place where you had
no local knowledge of the ways they used to survive with so little.
Also the general lawlessness would make a clueless arrival easy prey
to tricksters and the bored.

Its one thing to have special knowledge, but unless you show a good
level of general life knowledge in other areas you would simply be
laughed at. Imagine someone today who regularly displayed real
cluelessness telling you they had some great clever invention.

Low tech radios are known as foxhole radios, there are lots of sites
on them. Lots were made during the war (WW2). I think audio would be
much more useful than morse, though morse would certainly be useful
too. A carbon arc would give you negative resistance, capacitor and
inductor arent hard to make. Add a carbon microphone and you have a
radiotelephony transmitter.

One might use paper or something similar for insulation. Carbon rods
are just charred twigs. Coils would presumably be air cored.

If they didnt have paper back then, that would surely be a prime
invention: radios aka witchcraft might be prone to getting you killed.
No witchhunting then, but someone who can summon voices out of thin
air is to be feared, especially by those with power.


Regards, NT
 
R

Robert Baer

Hank said:
Ok, take a flight of imagination and say you were thrown back in time 3000 years
with absolutely nothing from modern times.

The first thing you could do to impress local rulers and establish a position of
power would be to introduce gunpowder and the projectile weapon (I guess if you
are anti-gun you are a bit screwed...sorry about that).

I would think a valuable piece of equipment would be a transmitter and reciever.
Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials and
resources available at that time?

For the transmitter, I am guessing an inductor/spark gap device would be
possible, assuming you could extrude wire from copper and insulate it with
something (tree sap?). Batteries should not be *too* hard.

For the reciever, you might have to resort to something like the coherer thingy
that came about before diodes. Too lazy to go look it up, but IIRC it was a
tube with metal filings inside that was connected to a long antenna. The
filings would conduct when the antenna recieved a strong electromagnetic wave.
Something like that.

I am thinking that vacuum tubes would be very hard to make...you would need a
vacuum pump, glass (maybe not too hard...not sure I know how to make good glass,
heh heh), a tungsten filament (aren't they coated with thorium or something?),
and other stuff....I don't even know if I could make a vacuum tube today with
today's tools without consulting a book or three. Perhaps you could make a
germanium diode using the cat whisker technique?

Anyone know of a fictional book that deals with this situation? I think it
would be an interesting read.

Actually, a vacuum pump is very simple and could be done with a
straight piece of bamboo for the outer pipe, a much smaller one to move
the piston, and leather for the plunger / piston / valve.
Can make a good enough vacuum for tubes (valves).
The thorium or barium is a modern addition to lower the work
functionof the filament.
Tungsten was a refinement to the filament, and would be essentially
impossible to make tungsten wire, so the Edison carbonized cotton thread
would have to suffice.
Addition of an accelerator grid very close to the filament might help
to overcome the large work function.

The major problem would be that one could not get any free electrons,
as the Pharoes were taxing *everything* !
 
R

Robert Baer

Roger said:
The Babylonians had Battery's almost that long ago. Used them to
deliver shocks for entertainment at parties.

It is impossible for a battery to create thousands of volts, like you
imply.
The referred article mentions outputs from 2V and lower.
 
D

Don Pearce

Actually, a vacuum pump is very simple and could be done with a
straight piece of bamboo for the outer pipe, a much smaller one to move
the piston, and leather for the plunger / piston / valve.
Can make a good enough vacuum for tubes (valves).
The thorium or barium is a modern addition to lower the work
functionof the filament.
Tungsten was a refinement to the filament, and would be essentially
impossible to make tungsten wire, so the Edison carbonized cotton thread
would have to suffice.
Addition of an accelerator grid very close to the filament might help
to overcome the large work function.

The major problem would be that one could not get any free electrons,
as the Pharoes were taxing *everything* !

Do you know how many thousand years of decorative glass making it took
to get a metallic contact through a glass envelope that neither
shattered the glass nor failed to seal vacuum over a range of
temperatures?

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 
T

Tim Shoppa

Hank said:
Do any of you think you could build something like this with the materials and
resources available at that time?

A (wire) telegraph is the most obvious choice. Morse code might be
a little different if the ancient greeks invented it. Damn those
ancient greeks!

You just need a battery and some wire (copper is easily malleable and
wire-drawn, and although western Europe doesn't have a lot of easily
usable copper deposits, most of the rest of the world does, and if you
were stuck in Europe probably lead and/or tin would be good enough. Is
zinc by itself easily drawn into wire?) and a little
bit of sheet metal (for the key and the sounder). If you have a chunk of
iron and something that's magnetic (magnetite?) that'll help with
winding the sounder. I did all this with
tin cans and scrap wire when I was a kid - although I had the luxury of
a #6 dry cell. Never did build a battery more than the lemon with two
metals stuck in, but I did disassemble a lot of batteries when I was a kid...

Tim.
 
P

Paul Burke

Tim said:
Morse code might be
a little different if the ancient greeks invented it. Damn those
ancient greeks!

It might have been Thanatose code perhaps?

Paul Burke
 
T

Terry Given

Robert Baer said:
It is impossible for a battery to create thousands of volts, like you
imply.
The referred article mentions outputs from 2V and lower.


what, you never stuck a 9V battery on your tongue to get a belt?

Cheers
Terry
 
T

Tim Shoppa

Robert Baer said:
It is impossible for a battery to create thousands of volts, like you
imply.
The referred article mentions outputs from 2V and lower.

2V and lower is a cell, not a battery.

A battery is, by definition, made up of multiple cells in series.
(Or a pile...)

(I know, in common usage it often means a single cell, and in the
recent past they've even put that in the dictionaries. I'm waiting
for "ATM Machine" to enter the dictionary...)

Tim.
 
J

JeffM

vacuum tubes would be difficult even 100 years ago
the "Fleming valve"...was made 100 years ago
It was even earlier that Thomas Edison discovered that
electrons will go from a filament to a plate in an evacuated light bulb
If he had thought more about it,
he could have added a "grid" and been decades ahead of his time
Ben Bradley

Even earlier had William Crookes tinkered a bit more in 1878.
Edison Effect 1883
Fleming Valve 1904
De Forest Audion 1906
 
J

JeffM

It is impossible for a battery to create thousands of volts,
like you imply.
The referred article mentions outputs from 2V and lower.
Robert Baer

That's for 1 cell.
Battery == voltaic pile (more than 1 cell)
 
R

Roger Gt

X-No-Archive: yes
"Tim Shoppa" wrote
: Robert Baer wrote
: > Roger Gt wrote:
: > >
: > > The Babylonians had Battery's almost that long ago. Used
them to
: > > deliver shocks for entertainment at parties.
: >
: > It is impossible for a battery to create thousands of volts,
like you
: > imply.
: > The referred article mentions outputs from 2V and lower.

: 2V and lower is a cell, not a battery.
:
: A battery is, by definition, made up of multiple cells in
series.
: (Or a pile...)
:
: (I know, in common usage it often means a single cell, and in
the
: recent past they've even put that in the dictionaries. I'm
waiting
: for "ATM Machine" to enter the dictionary...)
: Tim.


I didn't imply anything. You seem to have a problem with your
reading. A battery is made up of several cells, the voltage it
the sum of the number of cells times the voltage of a single cell.

The article only describes the one, since they wanted to
elaborate. Further reading elsewhere would tell you that they
"took shocks" from the battery by touching the conductors to their
lips. Try it with a 9V radio battery. Tastes salty!

Roger Gt
History buff!
 
A

Al

2V and lower is a cell, not a battery.

A battery is, by definition, made up of multiple cells in series.
(Or a pile...)

(I know, in common usage it often means a single cell, and in the
recent past they've even put that in the dictionaries. I'm waiting
for "ATM Machine" to enter the dictionary...)

Tim.

Yeah, the meanings of words are being twisted to fit the common mold.

A few years ago I was working as a consultant at a lab at MIT. I was
pontificating about something and called it a theory. Boy was my face
red when one of the scientists there calmly explained to me the
difference between a theory and a hypothesis.

Al
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Yeah, the meanings of words are being twisted to fit the common mold.

A few years ago I was working as a consultant at a lab at MIT. I was
pontificating about something and called it a theory. Boy was my face
red when one of the scientists there calmly explained to me the
difference between a theory and a hypothesis.

Al

I think it's great when people do that. The alternative (keeping quiet
and allowing you to make the same mistake over and over again in the
future) is far worse than a measured application of the clue stick.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
T

Tim Shoppa

Al said:
Yeah, the meanings of words are being twisted to fit the common mold.

A few years ago I was working as a consultant at a lab at MIT. I was
pontificating about something and called it a theory. Boy was my face
red when one of the scientists there calmly explained to me the
difference between a theory and a hypothesis.

It depends on who you were talking to... different fields have different
meanings for the word. Most physicsists won't have any problem calling
a hypothesis a "theory", but a mathematician or biologist or even worse,
a statistician or an experimental psychologist will probably be much more
pedantic.

Physics tends to have a lot more theories than the other fields just
because they aren't so tied up in the terminology. ("String theory"
and "Superstring theory"... you can't come up with either of those
if you're tied to anything!)

Tim.
 
A

Al

It depends on who you were talking to... different fields have different
meanings for the word. Most physicsists won't have any problem calling
a hypothesis a "theory", but a mathematician or biologist or even worse,
a statistician or an experimental psychologist will probably be much more
pedantic.

Physics tends to have a lot more theories than the other fields just
because they aren't so tied up in the terminology. ("String theory"
and "Superstring theory"... you can't come up with either of those
if you're tied to anything!)

Tim.

Well, it happened to be an astrophysicist.

And I've been on the bandwagon ever since!

I suppose Einstein's Theoryof Relativity was a hypothesis until it was
proven. And I think there are still attempts underway to throw a monkey
wrench into it.

Al
 
A

Al

Spehro Pefhany said:
I think it's great when people do that. The alternative (keeping quiet
and allowing you to make the same mistake over and over again in the
future) is far worse than a measured application of the clue stick.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

And no one should take umbrage when being corrected. It'll save you from
continuing to be a fool!

Al
 
T

Terry Given

Al said:
And no one should take umbrage when being corrected. It'll save you from
continuing to be a fool!

Al

hear hear. mistakes are an opportunity to learn and thus improve...

cheers
Terry
 
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