Turn your Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope into a 100MHz DS1102E

[fritz]

I note you used "can" not "does" in that sentence. The Internet filter
is a simple list of banned web sites that delays your download by a
few microseconds. In contrast, submitting a film or book to the
censors delays its release by days or even weeks.

The filter excludes all 'unclassified' sites - determined by a bunch of
faceless and unaccountable
people.

I don't believe you. Would you really allow the screening of sadism or
bestiality in the 3:30pm to 6:00pm time slot on free to air TV?

A totally stupid analogy, grow up.

 

[Andrew]

I note you used "can" not "does" in that sentence. The Internet filter
is a simple list of banned web sites that delays your download by a
few microseconds. In contrast, submitting a film or book to the
censors delays its release by days or even weeks.

I don't believe you. Would you really allow the screening of sadism or
bestiality in the 3:30pm to 6:00pm time slot on free to air TV?

There is no such thing as "free TV". Someone has to paid to the TV station
to operate. This someone would not get paid by advertisement if such things
will be shown.

 

[markp]

I think the cut here is that amateurs, who penny-pinch on gear, are
outraged by Rigol's actions, and professionals, who design and buy and
sell electronic instruments, think they are being perfectly ethical
and reasonable.

The amateurs mostly don't need a 100 MHz scope anyhow, and should be
(and aren't) grateful that Rigol sells the 1052 for around $500. I
bought the 50 MHz version to use in my office because that's fine for
most uses.

John

I happen to agree with you John, I am a professional design engineer (and a
director of an electronics company) and I see nothing wrong whatsoever in
the way Rigol market these scopes. If they want to give you hardware that is
capable of 100MHz operation but reduce it's capability and sell it as a
50MHz scope then they are quite entitled to do so, after all what you've
paid for is a scope that's guaranteed to 50MHz. However, if they take that
road and are stupid enough to allow someone to make a simple mod to recover
the additional performance (or at least maybe some of it) then they take the
consequences, people will do it!

But Rigol may well have not been as silly as we think. After all this has
opened up a discussion about Rigol scopes to people who would maybe wouldn't
have looked at them in detail. The general impression (overclocking ADCs
aside) is that they are extremely good value for money in terms of
price/performance. I for one have been looking closely at their combined
scope/logic analyzers and am tempted to buy one, and that was on the basis
of seeing this thread!

Proof though will be if Rigol complain to Youtube to have the video removed.
I strongly suspect they won't bother (at least not yet), as that model may
well be upgraded and that particular problem negated. In the meantime they
get lots of publicity.

Mark.

 

[Nial Stewart]

Your right though in that "professionals" like yourself are scum. You do this type of behavior

because you believe that since everyone else does it then it must make it ok. You have no
principles or morals. Rather than go out of business because you refuse to screw over your
customers you choose to be a bitch to the mighty dollar.

Whatever you do to earn a living, do you do it for free?



Nial.

 

[[email protected]]

The filter excludes all 'unclassified' sites - determined by a bunch of
faceless and unaccountable
people.


A totally stupid analogy, grow up.

NO, it really isn't. The statement was *any* censorship.

 

[[email protected]]

Tek 7103s and 7104s, 1 GHz analog scopes with microchannel plate CRTs,
are fairly cheap on the used market.

Got a good source for decent probes? A set of probes often costs more than
the (used) scope, which seem always to be missing their probes.

 

[[email protected]]

That was then, this is now.

Still true. The brats are now to leach off mom and dad's insurance until age
26.

 

[[email protected]]

Great, I'll "watch" for it.


No, I hadn't -- just tracked down the announcement now. That is intriguing!
Sounds like the new owners might be more focused on all this wireless stuff
than the old ones, though, which could be beneficial.

Might be beneficial. Fortunately we have a pretty good toe-hold in the market
now. A year ago, not so much.

The new guys provided
the wireless intercom systems that I used some twenty-some-odd years ago as
McDonalds burger flipper; they must be doing something right to still be
around, I expect.

That line is in direct competition with the low end of our other intercom
product line. It's not bad stuff, but rather stripped.

Yes... you need a spec so that it's easy to document why the project schedule
is slipping. "See, you changed the project spec last Monday, and the Tuesday
before that, and then again yesterday afternoon, and..."

"Why doesn't it support ____? I said we needed ____. Didn't you read my
email? No, I don't keep copies of all my emails."

Me: "I do."

 

[[email protected]]

I would think that a BIST routine would more than pay for itself just based on
reduced warranty costs alone?

Depends. If the customer superficially requests BIST, they pay for it. It
may be useful in production also. ;-)

But I certainly don't see anything wrong with providing a "pay for" option for
BIST if you want to.

BIST is no different than any other option.

 

[keithr]

It is not just objectionable, it is totally unacceptable to have
unaccountable
secret police deciding what I am allowed to view.


You are far too easy on fools like Conroy. Stand up and be counted !
I insist on the right to determine what is crap or not - I certainly don't
want
religious fruitcakes like Conroy deciding for me, censorship tends to be
driven
by religious fruitcakes and should be vigorously opposed if you value
freedom.

Anyway, the promoters of censorship are always at the dumb end of the
food chain (e.g. Conroy) and will be outsmarted. But free access to
information
should be defended as a matter of principle.
If the Nazi methods of One-Way Conroy are pissing you off, just go here...
https://www.ultravpn.fr/

Are you going to stand against censorship of all other media then?

 

[keithr]

There is no such thing as "free TV". Someone has to paid to the TV station
to operate. This someone would not get paid by advertisement if such things
will be shown.

That is censorship, the only difference being the nature of the censor

 

[Nico Coesel]

Whatever aliases the 100 MHz version has, the 50 MHz mode won't be
much better. My 1052 amazed me by having user-programmable
lowpass/highpass/bandpass filtering. If the FPGA can move 1 Gs/s data,
it shouldn't be hard to implement a simple FIR filter to knock 100 MHz
response down to 50. The filter wouldn't be realtime in the sense that
only display data needs to be filtered, and I suspect displays aren't
updated all that often.

Good question. The samplerate is probably variable which may lead to
several aliasing issues. I doubt they took care of that. Even a simple
FIR filter would require massive FPGA real estate. I suppose the
filtering options are performed during post-processing. IIRC correct
the memory bandwidth is also an issue. At the highest samplerate the
record length is limited to a few KB.

 

[[email protected]]

Hi Keith,



Do you guys worry much about 2.4GHz getting awfully crowded in the near
future? Or do you figure that with all the whitespace devices out there, DTV,
and the FCC wavering on just what is and isn't legal for wireless mics and
intercoms anyway, UHF looks just as bad?

Not too much in the market we're in. We do have other plans but the 2.4G band
is nice because it's world-wide (more or less and the less part is easily
manageable).

Joerg was pointing out to me recently that DTV stations today can be assigned
adjacent channels and you just end up with a "wall of RF," without the large
unoccupied channels you used to get with analog TV wherein frequency
coordinators would often find *their* channels for wireless mics and
intercoms.. This model: http://www.hme.com/pro850.cfm ... appears to address
the problem by having a super-wide tuning range (470-698MHz). It's kinda an
interesting design -- older FM technology, but just about every feature you
could have without going to full-up digital... and the IRDA link between a
belt pack and a PDA for configuration is kinda novel, I suppose -- but I
wonder how much use it actually gets?

I haven't looked seriously at their offerings. I should. IRDA? Why not
BlueTooth. ;-) Disclaimer: I *hate* BlueTooth.

Our big seller into the rental market is configuration over Ethernet. It
makes the thing a *lot* easier to set up than the arcane menus on the tiny
LCD.

Their "competitive matrix" (http://www.hme.com/collateral/PRO850_vsBTR800.pdf)
comparing it with the venerable Telex BTR800 system is a little silly
though... kinda like comparing a 2010 Camaro car to a '64 Mustang and dinging
the Mustang for not having anti-lock brakes or airbags.

We used the BTR800 (I think that's the model) in the high-end sports product
line until they bit the bullet and decided to do the engineering themselves
(before my time). I still see them in the older units that come back each
year for service.

Exactly.

I never ran into this problem when I worked for IBM. Everything was specified
down to the smallest detail[*]. The workbooks were something to behold
(easily tens of man-years in some of them).

[*] with the exception for the first generation crypto coprocessor key
management - they didn't know what they wanted, just how it was to work.

 

[JosephKK]

== Bog, have you never heard of per unit costs? Part of which is called
BOM?

See above, i can repeat it one more time.

"Cost" affects the decision to manufacture or not to manufacture the
particular products."

Price is the result of negiotiation between the seller and the buyer, ant
not the pure function of cost.
You will sell with a huge profit if you can or with a huge loss if it isthe
only way to recover at least some of the cost.

You are too damn scattershot to follow. A proper direct answer was required,
you gave many other things instead. Go away until you can give a straight answer.

 

[JosephKK]

Tek 7103s and 7104s, 1 GHz analog scopes with microchannel plate CRTs,
are fairly cheap on the used market.

An 11801 sampler with a 12 GHz head can be had for under $2K. Nice
scopes.

John

John, i am talking about brand _new_ analog 'scopes. Probably with
microchannel faceplates as well. All the old groovy Tektronix patents
have expired.

 

[JosephKK]

The 1052 already has user-programmable lowpass/highpass/bandpass
digital filtering. Pretty cool.

John

Postprocessing is not the same as input channel bandwidth limiting.
Check out the schematics of Tek analog 'scopes with input channel
bandwidth limiting.

 

[JosephKK]

Still true. The brats are now to leach off mom and dad's insurance until age
26.

No, Gov't handouts, i have met them face to face. Mummy and Doody could
support them but won't. So they go "on the dole".

 

[JosephKK]

No, I wouldn't own a liberal if they were free. You're stupid, right?


They didn't "give" their customers anything. They *sold* them a 50MHz scope
advertised as a 50MHz scope. It may (or not) perform better than advertised,
but that's not fraud by any stretch of a sane person's mind. You're stupid,
right?


I didn't pay for a Ferrari, I wouldn't expect a Ferrari. You're provingmy
point, here. You're stupid, right?


You're stupid, right?

His nym was well chosen from a shit-com character many years ago. It was
either the one with the junk yard or the dry cleaning business.

 

[David L. Jones]

Didn't you also do a blog about Rigol "overclocking" their ADCs?

Yes I did.
Once again, it wasn't new information exposed by me, and it wasn't a
negative blog. It was an informational blog clarifying an interesting
design/build aspect of this scope, and actually had a positive spin. I used
words like "great value for money", "excellent quality", "smart", "clever",
and "professional" etc.
FYI, I actually approached the GM of Rigol USA about it before I did the
blog, asking them to clarify and present their side of it. They did not
respond. But you'd know all that if you actually watched the video.
I know the GM reads this forum, and has even contributed in the past, and I
have had previous correspondance with him about my postive review of the
scope which they liked.

You've made a minor career out of trashing their scopes.

That's laughable. I have been one the biggest supporters of their scopes,
and am almost certainly directly responsible for more sales of them than any
other individual.
Your viewpoint is so myopic it's truly amazing.
Keep digging that hole by all means, but be careful, because as Phil said,
you might pop up in China.

I like my 1052 so far.

Good for you, so do I. And so do the probably thousands who have bought one
based on my promotion and recommendation of it over the last year and a bit.

Dave.

 

[JosephKK]

More justification. It's simple.. you do, as you have said in another post
exactly what rigol does. Hence you can't say or even believe they are wrong
because then you would be wrong.

Your right though in that "professionals" like yourself are scum. You do
this type of behavior because you believe that since everyone else does it
then it must make it ok. You have no principles or morals. Rather than go
out of business because you refuse to screw over your customers you choose
to be a bitch to the mighty dollar.

So I suppose your firmware has some code like:

double Performance_factor = 0.1;

switch (upgrade)
{
case expensive :
Performance_factor = 0.3;
break;
case RealExpensive :
Performance_factor = 0.5;
break;
case
So_Expensive_That_The_Costs_Will_Be_Passed_Down_To_The_Poor_Working_Imbecile_That_Is_too_Stupid_And_Deserves_To_Be_Fucked
:
Performance_factor = 0.52;
break;
}

SetBandwidth(Performance_factor*10^9);


and you'll call that having to set the upgrade type as "programming" which
requires a professional as yourself which is quite expensive.


I'm sure you get a hard on every time the last case statement is called.

You and your buddies that do this shit(krw and Joseph) have made it clear
why you have stood up for rigol from the very first post and tried to
justify it from every angle.

Of course it is impossible to make you understand your follies when so much
decay exists already. Just keep it up and we'll let evolution take care of
the problem.

So from the way you are discussing this you would call Tektronix scumbagsas
well; I could have deeper memory for my old used Tek TDS 544A if i knew the
software command that enabled it. Thus, Tektronix, because they also have
done this are scumbags. There are about a million engineers that will call
you all kinds of dirty names for the mere suggestion. Grow up and earn some
money by creating useful products.