Maker Pro
Maker Pro

The Ultimate Tube RIAA-Amplifier?

Good evening all their friends, is my first Post here
I liked the old construction
I have worked and I Experimentally, with very good results and I would like to tell you that it is very difficult construction, especially with tube
If you are interested, give you the shema

Sorry my english are bad

good luck

Good evening!

I am also very new here but welcome to Electronics Point!

I would very much like to see your schematic.

I am from Sweden, by the way.

Where are you from?

Best regards, Roger
 
I have watched Wallander but not learned much Swedish!

I looked up Child-Langmuirs in the english version of Wikipedia. There was an interesting paragraph.

Quote
On the other hand, space charge was useful in some tube applications because it generates a negative EMF within the tube's envelope, which could be used to create a negative bias on the tube's grid. Grid bias could also be achieved by using an applied grid voltage in addition to the control voltage. This could improve the engineer's control and fidelity of amplification. It allowed to construct space charge tubes for car radios that required only 6 or 12 volts anode voltage (typical examples were the 6DR8/EBF83, 6GM8/ECC86, 6DS8/ECH83, 6ES6/EF97 and 6ET6/EF98).
Unquote

It even uses the term bias.
 
I have watched Wallander but not learned much Swedish!

I looked up Child-Langmuirs in the english version of Wikipedia. There was an interesting paragraph.

Quote
On the other hand, space charge was useful in some tube applications because it generates a negative EMF within the tube's envelope, which could be used to create a negative bias on the tube's grid. Grid bias could also be achieved by using an applied grid voltage in addition to the control voltage. This could improve the engineer's control and fidelity of amplification. It allowed to construct space charge tubes for car radios that required only 6 or 12 volts anode voltage (typical examples were the 6DR8/EBF83, 6GM8/ECC86, 6DS8/ECH83, 6ES6/EF97 and 6ET6/EF98).
Unquote

It even uses the term bias.

I will have to read that article.

Right now I just want to tell you that I own a couple of ECC86.

And when I first saw the I/V-diagram stopping at some 20 Volts I could not believe it.

It is strange that noone has talked about these tubes before.

Whenever tubes have been discussed, it has always been assumed high voltages.

I wonder how my ECC86 would sound.

The only thing I remember except the low plate voltage was that the mu wasn't that high.

Finally, I do not know if your discovery really helps in understanding Edison-bias.

But it is a good try :)

Take care!

Best regards, Roger
 

CDRIVE

Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3
I must admit that all this information has me reeling.

Regarding space charge bias, I can't sim it, or to be more precise my sims on a 12AX7 don't validate it. I swept the grid resistor from 0 to 100Meg but the plate current didn't so much as twitch.

Regarding tubes that operated down to 12V B+ This is even more of a mind blower. I mean this stuff isn't just electronics history for me, I lived the era. My first car was a 1953 Plymouth. I know of no American autos that of that era that didn't have vibrator power supplies in them to generate the HV plate supply. Vibrators were the electromechanical predecessor to the solid state multivibrator. They looked like a chassis mount electrolytic.

I also owned vacuum tube portable radios. They employed an A battery for the fils and a 90V B battery for the plates. Military walkies of the early 60's had A & B bats too. This was all common stuff of the day. Heck, the best RF front end tube ever made was the 6CW4 (Nuvistor). It looked more like a transistor than a tube and was extremely small, Even at this mini size it didn't operate at the low voltages mentioned here. I can only assume that the ultra low voltage tubes were not very popular.

In the mid sixties I serviced hundreds of ARC34 UHF military aircraft transmitters. They also employed small pencil tubes in the multiplier and driver stages. The 90W output was delivered by Lighthouse tubes. The HV B+ was generated by a Dynamotor but later replaced with solid state multivibrator using Germanium power transistors. Not a great improvement. They'd make smoke if you looked at them wrong.

I'm a pack rat that finds it difficult to let loose of old stuff. Consequently I have kept just about every piece of test equipment and ham gear purchased or home brewed since 1966.
Off the top of my head I figure I have at minimum 25 items with tubes. One is a 1934 AM signal gen manufactured by General Radio for the Navy. Most of this stuff I haven't seen in years because they're buried deep in a storage bay.

Chris
 
hello all again , i am from greece

RIAAPREAMPLIFIER.jpg


my riaa preamp use hi frequency tube 6AK5 (triode conect) and interm freq 12BY7
response the riia curve +_ 0-8 db
Gain 37 db/1khz , z out 5k ,sn >53db

riaa carve
cgx1.jpg
[/IMG]

my is violet line

my test is that (greek langu)
and



watch


sorry again for my englise
 
Last edited:

CDRIVE

Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3
I said I'd post this so here it is. Possibly inconclusive, as I don't know if space charge is accounted for in the pcode.

Chris
 

Attachments

  • 12AX7Bias.JPG
    12AX7Bias.JPG
    39.2 KB · Views: 370
p.gabr
That looks like an excellent match.

Is your curve a measurement or simulation?

0bck.jpg


Check him basis of the above table
The process and the results showed in the video

Is measurement with good military analog meter .

All measure is +-0.6 about db except to 20hz when is -1.5 db down
the little bugs indications there may be

I use the electronic voltmeter ME-30, signal generator URM-127, output-impedance meter TS-585, oscilloscope TEKTRONIX 7603 +7A22 module diff amplifier (10 micro volt per division)


thanks best regards p.gavriil
 
Last edited:
I must admit that all this information has me reeling.

Regarding space charge bias, I can't sim it, or to be more precise my sims on a 12AX7 don't validate it. I swept the grid resistor from 0 to 100Meg but the plate current didn't so much as twitch.

Regarding tubes that operated down to 12V B+ This is even more of a mind blower. I mean this stuff isn't just electronics history for me, I lived the era. My first car was a 1953 Plymouth. I know of no American autos that of that era that didn't have vibrator power supplies in them to generate the HV plate supply. Vibrators were the electromechanical predecessor to the solid state multivibrator. They looked like a chassis mount electrolytic.

I also owned vacuum tube portable radios. They employed an A battery for the fils and a 90V B battery for the plates. Military walkies of the early 60's had A & B bats too. This was all common stuff of the day. Heck, the best RF front end tube ever made was the 6CW4 (Nuvistor). It looked more like a transistor than a tube and was extremely small, Even at this mini size it didn't operate at the low voltages mentioned here. I can only assume that the ultra low voltage tubes were not very popular.

In the mid sixties I serviced hundreds of ARC34 UHF military aircraft transmitters. They also employed small pencil tubes in the multiplier and driver stages. The 90W output was delivered by Lighthouse tubes. The HV B+ was generated by a Dynamotor but later replaced with solid state multivibrator using Germanium power transistors. Not a great improvement. They'd make smoke if you looked at them wrong.

I'm a pack rat that finds it difficult to let loose of old stuff. Consequently I have kept just about every piece of test equipment and ham gear purchased or home brewed since 1966.
Off the top of my head I figure I have at minimum 25 items with tubes. One is a 1934 AM signal gen manufactured by General Radio for the Navy. Most of this stuff I haven't seen in years because they're buried deep in a storage bay.

Chris

Hi Chris!

I wrote you a long answer but it got lost due to some stupid feature that logs out people within less than half an hour.

I am tired now so it's just too much work to try to tell my story again.

But in short,

I like your story and I like your tube servicing experience as well as your collection of tube apparatus. Awesome!

I have done some calculations with the help of Duke37's papers and have come to the conclusion that low voltage tubes actually are possible.

Remember that J=2,34*10^(-6)*V^(1,5)/d^2 [A/m2] as stated in those papers.

This means that if d=1mm, A=1X2cm then I=0,5mA/V^1,5 or approximatelly 8mA@6,3V.

So it is possible with low voltage tubes.

The strange thing is however that I've never heard of them.

As you have pointed out, people used mechanical vibrators to step up the voltage in the past.

But ok, the ECC86 amplification factor is quite low (14).

You can download the pdf here:

http://www.r-type.org/search.php?zoom_sort=0&zoom_query=ECC86&zoom_per_page=10&zoom_and=1

I tried to attach it but it was too large (>97kB).

Take care!

Best regards, Roger
 
Just for fun I hereby post a picture of my current tube stereo.

To the left is my ugly but wellsounding RIAA amplifier (using Edison-bias, of course).

In the middle is my friend's and I's pet project, that is our "Germanium Pre-Amplifier" where we use no more than two transistors per channel (out of which only the first is of Germanium type, the other is of Silicon type but works as an emitter follower only) to amplify line-level to PA-level while adding the nice feature of a headphones output.

To the right is my home made Williamson Amplifier.

Take care!

Best regards, Roger
 

Attachments

  • DSCN0360.JPG
    DSCN0360.JPG
    44.4 KB · Views: 392

CDRIVE

Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3
Hi Roger. Could you please enlarge that photo?. I'd love a closer look at that!

Chris
 
Hi Roger. Could you please enlarge that photo?. I'd love a closer look at that!

Chris

Hi Chris!

I'm sorry, it is not possible to upload pictures larger than some 150kB and this piture is around 140kB.

To me it is however large enough.

But let me know if you want an even larger picture.

Then I will have to reset my camera and send it to you by e-mail.

Best regards, Roger
PS
Attaching some other pictures.
 

Attachments

  • SSCN0063.JPG
    SSCN0063.JPG
    15.9 KB · Views: 322
  • SSCN0068.JPG
    SSCN0068.JPG
    13.8 KB · Views: 324
  • SSCN0186.JPG
    SSCN0186.JPG
    37.7 KB · Views: 380
Last edited:

CDRIVE

Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3
Roger, they're beautiful!!!!!! I think the wood model gave me a woody! Can't be sure at my age. :D

Thanks for sharing them.

Chris
 

davenn

Moderator
I'm sorry, it is not possible to upload pictures larger than some 150kB and this piture is around 140kB.

Roger

you do know about jpg compression ?
you can have a physically large pic ... say 640 x 480 pixels but it may only be 50kB in size

take image file from camera ... resize it to say ~ 640 x 480 maximum then when you save it, do so with ~ 70 % compression.
You still end up with a respectable looking pic but its file size is nice and small for loading to the www

cheers
Dave
 
Roger, they're beautiful!!!!!! I think the wood model gave me a woody! Can't be sure at my age. :D

Thanks for sharing them.

Chris

Thank you very much Chris!

Your comment really made me happy!

I am most proud of the pine version.

Sadly enough I got stupid and painted the rest (out of 10) black as you can see.

But I thought that I had to do so because it took me more than 10 years to complete the project and the storage took it's toll.

The first four did come out as pure pine, but when it came to the rest they where a bit damaged due to being stored in a sloppy way.

So instead of "stripes" on the wood I decided to paint them black.

Which I now regret because how would some tiny stripes be disturbing anyway?

It would not matter!

But what is done is done...

Take care!

Best regards, Roger
 
Roger

you do know about jpg compression ?
you can have a physically large pic ... say 640 x 480 pixels but it may only be 50kB in size

take image file from camera ... resize it to say ~ 640 x 480 maximum then when you save it, do so with ~ 70 % compression.
You still end up with a respectable looking pic but its file size is nice and small for loading to the www

cheers
Dave

Hi Dave!

I know there are ways to compress files. A long time ago I used Arj and selfextracting files for this purpose. But modern versions of that program isn't that appealing (liked the DOS version best).

I do however not think that there is such a big problem with the small sizes available for uploading to this fantastic site.

Mainly because my camera is now set for some 140k pictures and the limit is thankfully some 150k for jpg-files so I am able to upload them to EP.

This is perfect!

But the other day I tried to upload a pdf-file of some 300k which did not work.

That was a bit depressive but I could work around it by submitting the download address instead.

Best regards, Roger
PS
And server space is not for free...
 
Last edited:

davenn

Moderator
Hi Roger
you totally misunderstand ;)

I'm not talking about zipping files for storage like ARJ or winzip do
I'm talking about the actual editing of files ... now for the pro's they use photoshop etc etc.
but there are other pieces if software for file editing that are free and do a great job
one really simple one is IrfanView do a google search and download it

A note ... you should ALWAYS set your camera for doing the best (highest quality) images. you should store ALL those images in a folder that they are your permanent original copies. You then take a copy of them into another folder to work on .... resizing, compressing, colour corrections etc
One day you will learn this and realise that if you are not currently doing that, you will live to regret it, as I and other did in years gone bye

cheers
Dave
 
Chris, the pictures you saw there where almost exact replicas of The Williamson Amplifier.

The differences being:

1) No inductors for smothing the supply (66uF capacitor filter only)
2) No cossor (4X1N4007 instead)
3) KT88s
4) Passive hum rejection (own idea)
5) Galvanic separated supply (just mentioning it)

I have designed all transformers myself with the thankful help of the then called Toroidal Transformers company.

All transformers work well but the OPT isn't perfect with regard to HF data. But it does sound perfect, believe me!

The reason for this post is however that I want you to comment on my latest design as attached.

It is basicly a Willimason Amplifier but I have taken away the push-pull drive part while making it work without feedback instead.

This amplifier will then not work well with all loudspeakers but perhaps with some?

The reason for this is the so called damping factor which is bad in my design.

With the use of KT88s the damping factor is only 8 times.

Best regards, Roger
PS
Here is also a picture of the bottom:

http://knopp.se/knopp/pa_black_bottom.jpg
 

Attachments

  • KPA_5.PNG
    KPA_5.PNG
    32.7 KB · Views: 1,130
Last edited:
Top