Steve's Power Toys

[Gymy Bob]

The only problem is pulling the desk out and crawling behind it with a
flashlight to get the readings before pulling the plug and losing the data
forever.

 

[Gymy Bob]

Well here is another URL on this for you too with even better information
than your bullshit.

www.gozintothe wall.com/it_doesn't_work_either

 

[Gymy Bob]

We are not allowed to plug 20A devices into 15 amp circuits here. It must be
direct wired to a #12 AWG 20amp circuit alone. Nobody wants to pay the big
buck for the special receptical and the special plug.

We have an electrical code that tries to prevent fires and injuries, not
written for convenience.

 

[Gymy Bob]

And here I thought, that the Engineers thought, a "tool" was the techs that
do all the work he gets credit for!

 

[George Ghio]

99% eh? http://tinyurl.com/3vf7h Looks like another Gymyism for m II
to add to his list. Unless you can provide a cite... try here -
www.singleusecircuitbreaker.raredishwashercord.com

Regardless... no matter the hookup, a genuine professional isn't going
to waste his time or his client's money by using an (ordinary) clamp
meter to measure the energy use of a variable load. A dishwasher for
instance takes about an hour to cycle. So at even $25 an hour, a Kill
A Watt would pay for itself the first time it was used on a
dishwasher. Then again, we shouldn't discount the possibility that
there might be legions of homeowners who'd *like* having a
homily-spouting "consultant" hang around logging clamp-meter readings
one appliance at a time.

Wayne

That doesn't make two days autonomy either. You are hopeless aren't you.

 

[George Ghio]

It does?

Wayne

That won't work either

 

[George Ghio]

Steve used the word as part of a useful contribution, and you've used
it to advertise that you'd rather quibble and struggle than shell out
a few bucks for a basic tool.


<place holder for "solar power consultant's" invisible explanation>

IOW, until Murphy gets a dishwasher, his "consultant" don't need no
steenking Kill A Watt, preferring instead to squander his hours
protecting Usenet readers from those who would mention useful and
affordable gadgets.

Wayne

Still nothing as to how you get two days autonomy. And all that data to
work with too. Sad to see such a cretin flaunt his failure

 

[Gymy Bob]

I used to do Bill Complaints for the electric utility. I love the one where
ya' walk into the basement and they have the humidifier on the furnace
running full tilt and the dehumidifier running at the same time.

Or the heater left on in the basement 1500W running on low (never shuts
off) and the upsatirs NG thermostat turned down, bragging about how low
their gas bills are lately, but that damn electric bill is out of this
world???

People are their own worst enemies.

My favourite is the heater that the kids left on last spring but there can't
be anything on since the kids moved out last spring and nobody ever goes
down there...LOL

Ever clamp on the water pipe to the hot water heater? Tells ya' if the
element has a ground in it. Careful. You can get fooled with another ground
in the house finding it's way back to the transformer neutral.

"Geeez. It can't be my water heater!! That units works so well it makes the
water boil in the morning! It must be OK"

 

[m II]

Why? It sounds pretty simple to me.

I don't see any possibility of it working. The device has to have 240V going
to it. You want to connect a 240 volt transformer to these supply wires. Ok
so far...you can now measure 120 Volts on the other side of said
transformer. That's not enough. Where do you get you load amperage reading
from? If I were a betting sort....

Another way *might* be to wire an adapter and use the KaW on just one half
of the line, then multiply the measured power by two. This idea will
(naturally) only work with a balanced load (I think you will find that most 220
loads are balanced.)

Not in the case of a dryer or electric stove. In a dryer, the motor and
controls are 120. The elements MAY be switched between 120/240, depending on
setting. Same with stoves. With the advent of solid state heat controls,
though, this series/parallel, 120/240 volt switching is nowhere near as
common as it was some years ago. In any two wire 240 volt load, I'd agree
with you.



mike

 

[m II]

You can get fooled with another ground
in the house finding it's way back to the transformer neutral.

Thank you for yet ANOTHER gem...


--
My 'GymBobism' collection...updated daily:
=========================================
##some '#' bracketed text added for clarification##




You sure spent a lot of time trying to convince me you don't knwo what I am
talking about...LOL

At 11.6 volts a 12v battery is about 50-70% charged still.

Polish solar panels are what americans called "flashlights"

Propane will disapate and freeze when it evaporates.

Gasoline is not nearly as volatile as hydrogen.

Many people have browsers that economize the download

Try to stay on topic and on thread too bean brain.

Perhaps try Outlook Express or another browser that knows how to thread
posts.

Let's say youre solar cell was trying to put out
14.3 volts DC and you stuck a 10 ohm meter in series with a charged 13.8
volt DC battery.

This is power grid induction through capacitive proximity

You can get fooled with another ground in the house finding it's way back to
the transformer neutral.

A thought I have is rain water from a roof on a three story home through a
micro-turbine.

Setback thermostats only work efficiently for small differentials, dependant
on the time duration.

Breakers are good for one time usage of one fault and then they need to be
replaced for any warrantied usage.

If the breaker interupts a fault, it should be replaced.No warranty will
honoured after that.

I don't have a link at this time

There are no hydrogen molecules in water and the oxygen in water isn't
flammable either.

Water is inert and contains no energy to be used. Get some basic chemistry
first.

Quite simply put, for some of the boneheads here.

NiCads and NiMh batterries are designed to take a current charge forever.

Did they have electricity back in 1994?

I have been around so long with this stuff I believe I invented the diode in
1941 but I am not familiar with the solar panel usage requirements of them.
(no P & N substrate explanations please. I wrote the GE manual...LOL)

NOTE: do not pass ground wires through metal holes or cable clamps with two
screws on a metal surface.

There is **NOT*** enough energy in a lightning bolt to power your house for
more than an hour...if that. Do the math.
The figures escape me but let's say it puts out a roughly MWatt of power for
100 nanoseconds?
100 x 10-9 x 1 x 106 / 3600 (sec/hr) = 0.0027 wH
oooops.... Wouldn't light your home for a 1/2 second.
OK..OK.. multiply the figures time 100 or 1000. Now it would light a 100W
bulb for 1 second.

The IEEE-232 standards were never followed or known by many.

Fossil fuels are still renewable and being cxreated as we speak.

Children are venerially created.

If you want to discuss this then fine, otherwise go **** yourself like your
mother did.

Can you let go of my dick before it explodes on ya, goofball?

Petroleum is not related to Natural gas.

I would rather work at my $100/hour job than at chopping wood for hours to
save $3/hour

I have no license, I wire and inspect other's wiring for a job and work for
a medium size electrical utility.

The majority prefers top posting.

Get your tear ducts flushed by a knowledgeable optometrist.

Not many materials have the huge exponential resistance/heat curve aluminum
does. Overload doesn't make it glow like copper...it flashes and explodes.

A bathroom fan motor would never push hot air down ten feet or cold up ten
feet.

Bathroom fans have a hard time pushing 55 cfm through a 3-4" pipe 20
horizontal feet. They are made to vent smells and humid air horizontally
only.

Why not spend the money on a contract with the grid company and get an
exclusive line to your house and never have brownouts.

Usenet rules dictate top posting for readability

Many cell modems are set up to filter bottom posts out.

Cell modems do not cut off anything.

What security flaws. ##referring to Outlook Express##

Bottom posting was the was in the 70s and 80s before threading browsers were
available cheap like OE

What is a PMW?

10 pounds per gallon Imperial. That gallon is totally unique to the
US....ooops..I think all gallons are unique to the US now.

The standard Imperial gallon the whole world used weighs 10 pounds exactly.

The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
copper and nobody wants it.

Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about $0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?

Insulated square copper wires from a dry transformer are not 99% copper and
take a lot of work to remove the insulation.

I have tonnes of insulated copper wire if you want it. I think you could
almost have for the picking it up. How many bins can you take per year

50 lbs? We have it by the bin full. Mostly #6 to 650 MCM. I beleive you
would have to leave a bin and then pick it up full later to compete with the
current scrapper.

Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.

BTW: once you knock the wedge out of the coil form the laminations will be
easier to get out. This keeps them from buzzing until the varnish and other
impregnations go into it.

All you guys have a bad Christmas or Jewish and didn't see Santa or something?

Run each signal twisted with a ground for noise. RD twisted with gnd as a
pair, TD twisted around ground as a pair etc... This means signal/logic
ground not power ground or case ground, if they are different. Do not
connect the other ends of the ground conductors.

Tar pitch in a flourescent ballast does ***NOT*** contain PCBs and probably
never did.

Religion is not genetic or even herodigious

I believe the warmest part of the lake is just below the ice. As the water
frezes it rises to the top and joins the other ice formations.

Gel cell won't cut it when it comes to putting out 100A or more. They cook
in one spot and the rest of the electrolyte doesn't circulate fast enough.

There is nothing standard about USanian measurements. They changed their
sizes to avoid trading with the rest of the world. This worked for a few
centuries but the rest of the world moved on to the metric system to avert
the confusion the US caused.

Ever put your ohmmeter (do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a
capacitor? It measures infinity after charging to the supply voltage because
the electrolyte is an insulator.

Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

I doubt they are 4 farads. More likely 4 microfarads uf. ##referring to
4000mfd caps##

Sometimes it is an ego boost to have these so-called "professionals" come
and beg for information because they can't our toys do what the good guys
can but I would never hire them given a choice.

Do you measure altitude in degrees? Many aeronautical people would disagree
with you. ##referring to solar azimuth/altitude thread##

My house is filled with motion detectors. They don't all operate lights.
They mostly signal my house control computer and it decides what to do and when.

 

[m II]

DJ wrote:

And of course, yes, the "usual suspect" was right there at 40%. Hot
water.

In Alberta the the vast majority of water heaters are natural gas. I was a
bit surprised to see an electric tankless setup a few months back. They had
bought it because it was relatively cheap to purchase.

It was comprised of roughly 30cm (1 ft) of 3/4 inch water line in a
horseshoe shape with an electric heater in each leg. These were connected to
TWO 2pole 30 amp breakers.

After a year of use, they went back to a normal tank, as they didn't like
paying the four hundred dollar a month electrical bill.

The interior of British Columbia has many electric heated houses. Mainly
baseboard heat. Your heart has to go out to the poor dwellers. Gas is
getting pretty wide spread now, but the rates go up regularly.

Outlawing ALL corporate donations to ALL political parties would be good
start in getting OUR public servants to listen to US again.




mike

 

[wmbjk]

We are not allowed to plug 20A devices into 15 amp circuits here. It must be
direct wired to a #12 AWG 20amp circuit alone. Nobody wants to pay the big
buck for the special receptical and the special plug.

We have an electrical code that tries to prevent fires and injuries, not
written for convenience.

Bravo! You've hit on the five main problems with dishwashers - rogue
units adding 5A at border crossings, obscenely expensive "special"
power cords, risk of fire and personal injury, and the lack of
convenience. Hopefully the folks at 60 Minutes are reading....

Wayne

 

[wmbjk]

The only problem is pulling the desk out and crawling behind it with a
flashlight to get the readings before pulling the plug and losing the data
forever.

Yeah, you wouldn't want to buy any of those pricey extension cords.
These &*^%ing wire manufacturers must think we're made of money.

Wayne

 

[Gymy Bob]

So the voltage drop in the cheap extension cord doesn't get compensated for?
I thought you were a professional and got the details?

Does the current go up or down when you have voltage drop?

LOL

 

[Vaughn]

So the voltage drop in the cheap extension cord doesn't get compensated for?
...
Does the current go up or down when you have voltage drop?

It depends on the type of load.

Vaughn

 

[wmbjk]

So the voltage drop in the cheap extension cord doesn't get compensated for?
I thought you were a professional and got the details?

Does the current go up or down when you have voltage drop?

LOL

You probably shouldn't be laughing right after needing a public
prompting to use an extension cord. But at least you don't have to
crawl around under the desk anymore. Thank God for Usenet eh?

Wayne

 

[Gymy Bob]

Your extension cords you have so handy are good for 15amperes right? Like
#14 awg wire in all them?

I don't endanger my clients with dangerous outlandish practices like #16 or
#18 gauge extansion cords strung all over their houses behind appliances. I
use professional meters, not something I bought from a junk dealer on eBay.

Thank Gawd soembody told you about poor safety practices. Did you get your
ticket from a gumball machine or did your momma teach you?

LOL

 

[wmbjk]

Your extension cords you have so handy are good for 15amperes right? Like
#14 awg wire in all them?

Extension cords come in many shapes and sizes. A 6 ft. 14-3 would be
just dandy to keep you out from under the desk when using a KaW. A 100
ft. 12-3 would also do nicely if part of it were coiled around your
foot, and another part snagged on a passing elevator.

I don't endanger my clients with dangerous outlandish practices like #16 or
#18 gauge extansion cords strung all over their houses behind appliances. I
use professional meters, not something I bought from a junk dealer on eBay.

My guess is that your equipment and clients are in the same league as
our other resident blowhard's.

Wayne

 

[m II]

It depends on the type of load.

Very true. I've seen a few burned out motors due to too long of an extension
cord. we figured the load amperage went up roughly twenty percent. These
were table saws used on a construction site.




mike


--
My 'GymBobism' collection...updated daily:
=========================================
##some '#' bracketed text added for clarification##



We need less morons like another clone of Moron II here. ##My fifteen
minutes of FAME!##

You sure spent a lot of time trying to convince me you don't knwo what I am
talking about...LOL

At 11.6 volts a 12v battery is about 50-70% charged still.

Polish solar panels are what americans called "flashlights"

Propane will disapate and freeze when it evaporates.

Gasoline is not nearly as volatile as hydrogen.

Many people have browsers that economize the download

Try to stay on topic and on thread too bean brain.

Perhaps try Outlook Express or another browser that knows how to thread
posts.

Let's say youre solar cell was trying to put out
14.3 volts DC and you stuck a 10 ohm meter in series with a charged 13.8
volt DC battery.

This is power grid induction through capacitive proximity

You can get fooled with another ground in the house finding it's way back to
the transformer neutral.

A thought I have is rain water from a roof on a three story home through a
micro-turbine.

Setback thermostats only work efficiently for small differentials, dependant
on the time duration.

Breakers are good for one time usage of one fault and then they need to be
replaced for any warrantied usage.

If the breaker interupts a fault, it should be replaced.No warranty will
honoured after that.

I don't have a link at this time

There are no hydrogen molecules in water and the oxygen in water isn't
flammable either.

Water is inert and contains no energy to be used. Get some basic chemistry
first.

Quite simply put, for some of the boneheads here.

NiCads and NiMh batterries are designed to take a current charge forever.

Did they have electricity back in 1994?

I have been around so long with this stuff I believe I invented the diode in
1941 but I am not familiar with the solar panel usage requirements of them.
(no P & N substrate explanations please. I wrote the GE manual...LOL)

NOTE: do not pass ground wires through metal holes or cable clamps with two
screws on a metal surface.

There is **NOT*** enough energy in a lightning bolt to power your house for
more than an hour...if that. Do the math.
The figures escape me but let's say it puts out a roughly MWatt of power for
100 nanoseconds?
100 x 10-9 x 1 x 106 / 3600 (sec/hr) = 0.0027 wH
oooops.... Wouldn't light your home for a 1/2 second.
OK..OK.. multiply the figures time 100 or 1000. Now it would light a 100W
bulb for 1 second.

The IEEE-232 standards were never followed or known by many.

Fossil fuels are still renewable and being cxreated as we speak.

Children are venerially created.

If you want to discuss this then fine, otherwise go **** yourself like your
mother did.

Can you let go of my dick before it explodes on ya, goofball?

Petroleum is not related to Natural gas.

I would rather work at my $100/hour job than at chopping wood for hours to
save $3/hour

I have no license, I wire and inspect other's wiring for a job and work for
a medium size electrical utility.

The majority prefers top posting.

Get your tear ducts flushed by a knowledgeable optometrist.

Not many materials have the huge exponential resistance/heat curve aluminum
does. Overload doesn't make it glow like copper...it flashes and explodes.

A bathroom fan motor would never push hot air down ten feet or cold up ten
feet.

Bathroom fans have a hard time pushing 55 cfm through a 3-4" pipe 20
horizontal feet. They are made to vent smells and humid air horizontally
only.

Why not spend the money on a contract with the grid company and get an
exclusive line to your house and never have brownouts.

Usenet rules dictate top posting for readability

Many cell modems are set up to filter bottom posts out.

Cell modems do not cut off anything.

What security flaws. ##referring to Outlook Express##

Bottom posting was the was in the 70s and 80s before threading browsers were
available cheap like OE

What is a PMW?

10 pounds per gallon Imperial. That gallon is totally unique to the
US....ooops..I think all gallons are unique to the US now.

The standard Imperial gallon the whole world used weighs 10 pounds exactly.

The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
copper and nobody wants it.

Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about $0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?

Insulated square copper wires from a dry transformer are not 99% copper and
take a lot of work to remove the insulation.

I have tonnes of insulated copper wire if you want it. I think you could
almost have for the picking it up. How many bins can you take per year

50 lbs? We have it by the bin full. Mostly #6 to 650 MCM. I beleive you
would have to leave a bin and then pick it up full later to compete with the
current scrapper.

Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.

BTW: once you knock the wedge out of the coil form the laminations will be
easier to get out. This keeps them from buzzing until the varnish and other
impregnations go into it.

All you guys have a bad Christmas or Jewish and didn't see Santa or something?

Run each signal twisted with a ground for noise. RD twisted with gnd as a
pair, TD twisted around ground as a pair etc... This means signal/logic
ground not power ground or case ground, if they are different. Do not
connect the other ends of the ground conductors.

Tar pitch in a flourescent ballast does ***NOT*** contain PCBs and probably
never did.

Religion is not genetic or even herodigious

I believe the warmest part of the lake is just below the ice. As the water
frezes it rises to the top and joins the other ice formations.

Gel cell won't cut it when it comes to putting out 100A or more. They cook
in one spot and the rest of the electrolyte doesn't circulate fast enough.

There is nothing standard about USanian measurements. They changed their
sizes to avoid trading with the rest of the world. This worked for a few
centuries but the rest of the world moved on to the metric system to avert
the confusion the US caused.

Ever put your ohmmeter (do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a
capacitor? It measures infinity after charging to the supply voltage because
the electrolyte is an insulator.

Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

I doubt they are 4 farads. More likely 4 microfarads uf. ##referring to
4000mfd caps##

Sometimes it is an ego boost to have these so-called "professionals" come
and beg for information because they can't our toys do what the good guys
can but I would never hire them given a choice.

Do you measure altitude in degrees? Many aeronautical people would disagree
with you. ##referring to solar azimuth/altitude thread##

My house is filled with motion detectors. They don't all operate lights.
They mostly signal my house control computer and it decides what to do and when.

Enlighten please (like it really matters...LOL)

 

[m II]

Ok... perhaps my understanding of a transformer is wrong, but i
understand the following:

A (simple) transformer has two sides, primary and secondary.
If the step up of V on the primary is 2, (ie 120->240) then the
current will drop by the inverse (1/2). (less some transformer loss)
20 amps on the primary at 120V equates to 10 amps-T(loss) on the
secondary at 240V.

Yes. Right on..but let's do it the other way. If the current on the
secondary is 35, then the primary would be 70. This is why you had
previously mentioned that the idea would be good for 7.5 amp 240 loads maximum.

so on "paper":
<PRE>
+----+
C |
+---------+ +-----+ C |
| K|in K|o C C (~)240v
(~)120V a| a|u C C |
| W| W|t C C |
+---------+ +-----+ C |
+----+

</pre>

Just plug your 240V device into the 240V side of the transformer.

Yes. That would work if the load were ONLY 240 volts. You'd need a centre
tapped transformer in order to get a neutral. Dryers and Stoves have 120 v
motors and or controls. That centre tap would have to be grounded to clamp
the voltage of each winding leg at 120v. .else we get a floating neutral and
the voltage on each leg varying to some degree with any unbalanced load.

If you average 15A for 1 hour on the 120 side (which is what the
KaW is measuring) then you've used 1.8kwH. You know the 240V load drew
about that much (less transformer loss).... an average of 7.5A over
the same hour.

Yes. That's all correct

The complaint I hear is that I neglected to consider power
factors and the original transformer loss. I don't know those
calculations, or how to minimize them.

I think for the purposes at hand we can safely forget that stuff. We are in
an ideal world as far as our exploration here is concerned. We can even
ignore rolling friction and the resistance of air. *I* can even ignore the
furnace squeaking for the last week.


Ok now..resistive loads have a unity power factor and the closer a motor
runs to it's rated output, the closer the power factor gets to unity. Very
lightly loaded motors have the poorest PF. From what I've seen of
manufacturing economics, you can bet they would NEVER put in a motor bigger
than the smallest they could reasonably get away with. In a dryer this
factor would be negligible. Also, the meter on the house will only charge
you for REAL power (Watts) used, not apparent power (VA), so the point is
kinda moot.

Even in industrial settings, they *usually* don't get to excited about power
factor correction until it gets to below 80 percent.

Thanks for the folks who pointed out the KaW was a 15A device, BTW.

Bless them all. Good people.


NOW, having said all that, I have **a small confession** to make.

I screwed up in my original protestations to the suggestion. When I thought
about the transformer being used, I had visions of it being used to feed the
KiloWatt device from the 120V side of it..(somehow). That was before I
actually did a web search and saw the actual feed-through configuration of
this device.

All I can say in my defense is that it was late. The wind had taken the roof
off the house. The dogs were chewing my right leg off at the knee because I
hadn't fed them. My daughter was telling me she was pregnant with quints and
didn't know who the father was. A fire in the garage was visible through the
kitchen window. I had forgotten my anniversary. Again.

So, you see, my fear of Wife clouded my thinking. I am sorry.


mike