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Steve's Power Toys

M

m II

Philip said:
Not sure where you are, but we here in pittsburgh PA, USA are not
allowed to do that either, nor are we able to since a device requiring
20A has a different plug than a 15 amp device.

Mind you, of the several "not built in" dishwashers that my family/
friends have had, none seemed to have been 20A. All had the standard
parallel blade 15A plugs.


I've seen ONE twenty amp dishwasher in the last thirty years and that was in
a restaurant. The built in units in residential now usually provide a cord
that MAY be wired into the junction box at the base of the machine. The code
here does not require a receptacle, but it MAY be used. The electrical
contractors usually just leave a few feet of wire (loomex, ???ex) coming out
of the floor or wall. This gets wired directly in.

Some of them are not thinking, though. When they connect, the wire gets cuts
off to fit the need. That means disconnection the machine to get at the
plumbing. Dumb. There should be five feet of wire left to facilitate
appliance removal.

umm... big bucks? we'd be talking a $10 increase max.
(and probably closer to $2)

I know if I were going to install a built in, i'd wire it via a plug
and receptacle since it would make it easy to take out and
service... same reason i put in shutoffs under the sink when I last
replaced the faucet.

That as the reasoning when dryer and Range receptacles were made mandatory.
Before that, the hard wiring meant a phone call to the expensive trades
types. Mind you, it was easy money to make..



mike
 
W

wmbjk

That as the reasoning when dryer and Range receptacles were made mandatory.
Before that, the hard wiring meant a phone call to the expensive trades
types. Mind you, it was easy money to make..

And there you have it - competitive home builders can't afford to make
a habit of paying out easy money. Plus, it's probably cost-effective
to provide receptacles for these appliances so that they can be
"installed" by delivery guys...er, appliance technicians. After a few
hundred deliveries...I mean, "Initial Critical Site Setup and
Installation Verifications", the tech can hang out an "Appliance
Consultant" shingle, get a computer and ..... ;-)

Wayne
 
G

George Ghio

That does not make two days autonomy either.

Gawd, what a weasel
 
G

Gymy Bob

Of course they have the Eveready name on them but not sure who makes them
for real.
 
G

Gymy Bob

Basically correct. Try thinking this way VA = VA

Volts x Current (in amps) = Volts x Current (in amperes)
no matter what voltage you transform to the VA is always the same (less core
losses)

The turns ratio is directly proportional to the voltage ratio and the
current ratio is inversely proportionate to the turns ratio. Impedance is
directly proportionate to the square of the turns ratio.

The more iron in the core, the more VA a transformer can handle.
A 50Hz transformer needs double the iron a 60Hz transformer needs for the
same VA capacity.
 
G

Gymy Bob

Most electricians doing home wiring wouldn't know what a 20A receptical was
and the 20A circuit is required here.
 
M

m II

Gymy said:
Basically correct. Try thinking this way VA = VA

Volts x Current (in amps) = Volts x Current (in amperes)
no matter what voltage you transform to the VA is always the same (less core
losses)


More to it than that.

In a well designed transformer, the core losses are only HALF of the total
losses. The core losses are comprised of eddy current losses and hysteresis
losses. The I^2R losses in the windings should be matched to these.

=======================================================
Efficiency is a function of a transformer's power losses, and two factors
account for nearly all of these losses. One is winding copper loss. Since
you have two sets of windings, you have two components to copper loss:
primary and secondary winding copper loss.

The second factor accounting for transformer power losses is core loss. You
get core losses due to hysteresis - a function of several characteristics of
the core steel (or iron), all determined by the manufacturing process.
Fortunately, the core losses for any given transformer stay constant
(provided supply frequency is constant). You obtain maximum efficiency when
winding copper loss equals core loss.

http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/electric_basics_transformer_voltage/
=======================================================


The turns ratio is directly proportional to the voltage ratio and the
current ratio is inversely proportionate to the turns ratio. Impedance is
directly proportionate to the square of the turns ratio.
The more iron in the core, the more VA a transformer can handle.


I've seen transformers with NO iron in the core. I guess they can't handle
ANY Volt-Amps. It would be more accurate to say that the VA a core can
handle is frequency dependent.


A 50Hz transformer needs double the iron a 60Hz transformer needs for the
same VA capacity.

Please provide a site for that statement. It seems **WAY** out of whack. In
fact, it's worthy of adding to the collection.

I found one that said TWENTY percent more core is needed and even that may
be too much.

==========================================
Going the other way, from 60 Hertz design to 50 Hertz usage, is a *BIG
DEAL*. The applied input voltage should be reduced to 5/6 name plate rating
or bad things can/will happen. They need about 20 % more "iron" to work at
50 Hertz.

http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/TricksFor50-60cycles.html
==========================================

===================================
How core area is 'guessed' at, for a preliminary trial before making a
transformer:

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/slup126/slup126.pdf
===================================

===================================
This also disagrees with you. They show roughly four times the metal needed
for a *ten* fold increase in VA...same frequency, mind you.

http://members.tripod.com/~schematics/xform/graph.gif
http://members.tripod.com/~schematics/xform/xformer3.htm
===================================



--
My 'GymBobism' collection...updated daily:
=========================================
##some '#' bracketed text added for clarification##



We need less morons like another clone of Moron II here. ##My fifteen
minutes of FAME!##

You sure spent a lot of time trying to convince me you don't knwo what I am
talking about...LOL

At 11.6 volts a 12v battery is about 50-70% charged still.

Polish solar panels are what americans called "flashlights"

Propane will disapate and freeze when it evaporates.

Gasoline is not nearly as volatile as hydrogen.

Many people have browsers that economize the download

Try to stay on topic and on thread too bean brain.

Perhaps try Outlook Express or another browser that knows how to thread
posts.

Let's say youre solar cell was trying to put out
14.3 volts DC and you stuck a 10 ohm meter in series with a charged 13.8
volt DC battery.

This is power grid induction through capacitive proximity

You can get fooled with another ground in the house finding it's way back to
the transformer neutral.

A thought I have is rain water from a roof on a three story home through a
micro-turbine.

Setback thermostats only work efficiently for small differentials, dependant
on the time duration.

Breakers are good for one time usage of one fault and then they need to be
replaced for any warrantied usage.

If the breaker interupts a fault, it should be replaced.No warranty will
honoured after that.

I don't have a link at this time

There are no hydrogen molecules in water and the oxygen in water isn't
flammable either.

Water is inert and contains no energy to be used. Get some basic chemistry
first.

Quite simply put, for some of the boneheads here.

NiCads and NiMh batterries are designed to take a current charge forever.

Did they have electricity back in 1994?

I have been around so long with this stuff I believe I invented the diode in
1941 but I am not familiar with the solar panel usage requirements of them.
(no P & N substrate explanations please. I wrote the GE manual...LOL)

NOTE: do not pass ground wires through metal holes or cable clamps with two
screws on a metal surface.

There is **NOT*** enough energy in a lightning bolt to power your house for
more than an hour...if that. Do the math.
The figures escape me but let's say it puts out a roughly MWatt of power for
100 nanoseconds?
100 x 10-9 x 1 x 106 / 3600 (sec/hr) = 0.0027 wH
oooops.... Wouldn't light your home for a 1/2 second.
OK..OK.. multiply the figures time 100 or 1000. Now it would light a 100W
bulb for 1 second.

The IEEE-232 standards were never followed or known by many.

Fossil fuels are still renewable and being cxreated as we speak.

Children are venerially created.

If you want to discuss this then fine, otherwise go **** yourself like your
mother did.

Can you let go of my dick before it explodes on ya, goofball?

Petroleum is not related to Natural gas.

I would rather work at my $100/hour job than at chopping wood for hours to
save $3/hour

I have no license, I wire and inspect other's wiring for a job and work for
a medium size electrical utility.

The majority prefers top posting.

Get your tear ducts flushed by a knowledgeable optometrist.

Not many materials have the huge exponential resistance/heat curve aluminum
does. Overload doesn't make it glow like copper...it flashes and explodes.

A bathroom fan motor would never push hot air down ten feet or cold up ten
feet.

Bathroom fans have a hard time pushing 55 cfm through a 3-4" pipe 20
horizontal feet. They are made to vent smells and humid air horizontally
only.

Why not spend the money on a contract with the grid company and get an
exclusive line to your house and never have brownouts.

Usenet rules dictate top posting for readability

Many cell modems are set up to filter bottom posts out.

Cell modems do not cut off anything.

What security flaws. ##referring to Outlook Express##

Bottom posting was the was in the 70s and 80s before threading browsers were
available cheap like OE

What is a PMW?

10 pounds per gallon Imperial. That gallon is totally unique to the
US....ooops..I think all gallons are unique to the US now.

The standard Imperial gallon the whole world used weighs 10 pounds exactly.

The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
copper and nobody wants it.

Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about $0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?

Insulated square copper wires from a dry transformer are not 99% copper and
take a lot of work to remove the insulation.

I have tonnes of insulated copper wire if you want it. I think you could
almost have for the picking it up. How many bins can you take per year

50 lbs? We have it by the bin full. Mostly #6 to 650 MCM. I beleive you
would have to leave a bin and then pick it up full later to compete with the
current scrapper.

Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.

BTW: once you knock the wedge out of the coil form the laminations will be
easier to get out. This keeps them from buzzing until the varnish and other
impregnations go into it.

All you guys have a bad Christmas or Jewish and didn't see Santa or something?

Run each signal twisted with a ground for noise. RD twisted with gnd as a
pair, TD twisted around ground as a pair etc... This means signal/logic
ground not power ground or case ground, if they are different. Do not
connect the other ends of the ground conductors.

Tar pitch in a flourescent ballast does ***NOT*** contain PCBs and probably
never did.

Religion is not genetic or even herodigious

I believe the warmest part of the lake is just below the ice. As the water
frezes it rises to the top and joins the other ice formations.

Gel cell won't cut it when it comes to putting out 100A or more. They cook
in one spot and the rest of the electrolyte doesn't circulate fast enough.

There is nothing standard about USanian measurements. They changed their
sizes to avoid trading with the rest of the world. This worked for a few
centuries but the rest of the world moved on to the metric system to avert
the confusion the US caused.

Ever put your ohmmeter (do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a
capacitor? It measures infinity after charging to the supply voltage because
the electrolyte is an insulator.

Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

I doubt they are 4 farads. More likely 4 microfarads uf. ##referring to
4000mfd caps##

Sometimes it is an ego boost to have these so-called "professionals" come
and beg for information because they can't our toys do what the good guys
can but I would never hire them given a choice.

Do you measure altitude in degrees? Many aeronautical people would disagree
with you. ##referring to solar azimuth/altitude thread##

My house is filled with motion detectors. They don't all operate lights.
They mostly signal my house control computer and it decides what to do and when.

Enlighten please (like it really matters...LOL)

A 50Hz transformer needs double the iron a 60Hz transformer needs for the
same VA capacity.
 
W

wmbjk

Most electricians doing home wiring wouldn't know what a 20A receptical was
and the 20A circuit is required here.

Oh really. So they know to make it 20 Amps, and how to install dryer
and range receptacles, yet have some sort of mysterious mental
deficiency when it comes to the infamously unheard-of 20A version?
Perhaps those could be installed by the carpet guys until the Royal
Commission releases its report.

Wayne
 
G

Gymy Bob

I thought Royal made instant puddings. I only have to listen to the
electrician brains here to figure out they are the "cream of the crop" This
worries me but I see it most days at work anyway...LOL
 
D

daestrom

Gymy Bob said:
Basically correct. Try thinking this way VA = VA

Volts x Current (in amps) = Volts x Current (in amperes)
no matter what voltage you transform to the VA is always the same (less
core
losses)

The turns ratio is directly proportional to the voltage ratio and the
current ratio is inversely proportionate to the turns ratio. Impedance is
directly proportionate to the square of the turns ratio.

The more iron in the core, the more VA a transformer can handle.
A 50Hz transformer needs double the iron a 60Hz transformer needs for the
same VA capacity.

Nonsense, you don't know what you're saying. For a given ampacity, the
copper windings rule. For a given volt-second, the iron rules. When
running frequency down from 60 to 50, you must either reduce the voltage to
5/6 or increase the iron by 6/5. the saturation limit of the iron is a
constant volt/hz ratio. If the copper windings are left 'as-is', the
current capacity is the same.

So a given transformer designed to operate at its limit at 60 hz, when
connected to 50 hz has to have the voltage reduced to 5/6ths. And that
means the VA is 5/6ths.

daestrom
 
G

Gymy Bob

As a design engineer of transformers for 10 years I happen to know you are
full of shit.
 
M

m II

Gymy said:
As a design engineer of transformers for 10 years I happen to know you are
full of shit.



Thank you kindly. I was worried I wouldn't meet my quota for the day. Your
dependability is to be commended.




mike



--
My 'GymBobism' collection...updated daily:
=========================================
##some '#' bracketed text added for clarification##



We need less morons like another clone of Moron II here. ##My fifteen
minutes of FAME!##

You sure spent a lot of time trying to convince me you don't knwo what I am
talking about...LOL

At 11.6 volts a 12v battery is about 50-70% charged still.

Polish solar panels are what americans called "flashlights"

Propane will disapate and freeze when it evaporates.

Gasoline is not nearly as volatile as hydrogen.

Many people have browsers that economize the download

Try to stay on topic and on thread too bean brain.

Perhaps try Outlook Express or another browser that knows how to thread
posts.

Let's say youre solar cell was trying to put out
14.3 volts DC and you stuck a 10 ohm meter in series with a charged 13.8
volt DC battery.

This is power grid induction through capacitive proximity

You can get fooled with another ground in the house finding it's way back to
the transformer neutral.

A thought I have is rain water from a roof on a three story home through a
micro-turbine.

Setback thermostats only work efficiently for small differentials, dependant
on the time duration.

Breakers are good for one time usage of one fault and then they need to be
replaced for any warrantied usage.

If the breaker interupts a fault, it should be replaced.No warranty will
honoured after that.

I don't have a link at this time

There are no hydrogen molecules in water and the oxygen in water isn't
flammable either.

Water is inert and contains no energy to be used. Get some basic chemistry
first.

Quite simply put, for some of the boneheads here.

NiCads and NiMh batterries are designed to take a current charge forever.

Did they have electricity back in 1994?

I have been around so long with this stuff I believe I invented the diode in
1941 but I am not familiar with the solar panel usage requirements of them.
(no P & N substrate explanations please. I wrote the GE manual...LOL)

NOTE: do not pass ground wires through metal holes or cable clamps with two
screws on a metal surface.

There is **NOT*** enough energy in a lightning bolt to power your house for
more than an hour...if that. Do the math.
The figures escape me but let's say it puts out a roughly MWatt of power for
100 nanoseconds?
100 x 10-9 x 1 x 106 / 3600 (sec/hr) = 0.0027 wH
oooops.... Wouldn't light your home for a 1/2 second.
OK..OK.. multiply the figures time 100 or 1000. Now it would light a 100W
bulb for 1 second.

The IEEE-232 standards were never followed or known by many.

Fossil fuels are still renewable and being cxreated as we speak.

Children are venerially created.

If you want to discuss this then fine, otherwise go **** yourself like your
mother did.

Can you let go of my dick before it explodes on ya, goofball?

Petroleum is not related to Natural gas.

I would rather work at my $100/hour job than at chopping wood for hours to
save $3/hour

I have no license, I wire and inspect other's wiring for a job and work for
a medium size electrical utility.

The majority prefers top posting.

Get your tear ducts flushed by a knowledgeable optometrist.

Not many materials have the huge exponential resistance/heat curve aluminum
does. Overload doesn't make it glow like copper...it flashes and explodes.

A bathroom fan motor would never push hot air down ten feet or cold up ten
feet.

Bathroom fans have a hard time pushing 55 cfm through a 3-4" pipe 20
horizontal feet. They are made to vent smells and humid air horizontally
only.

Why not spend the money on a contract with the grid company and get an
exclusive line to your house and never have brownouts.

Usenet rules dictate top posting for readability

Many cell modems are set up to filter bottom posts out.

Cell modems do not cut off anything.

What security flaws. ##referring to Outlook Express##

Bottom posting was the was in the 70s and 80s before threading browsers were
available cheap like OE

What is a PMW?

10 pounds per gallon Imperial. That gallon is totally unique to the
US....ooops..I think all gallons are unique to the US now.

The standard Imperial gallon the whole world used weighs 10 pounds exactly.

The copper isn't worth more than 5 cents per pound. It is classed a mixed
copper and nobody wants it.

Hey moron! The copper is considered "mixed" copper and is worth about $0.02
per pound, if he seperates it all.

Just don't ever lose weight. Toxins are stored in your fat cells.

Did you know, **NO***, I repeat ***NO*** death has ever been related to
PCBs?

Insulated square copper wires from a dry transformer are not 99% copper and
take a lot of work to remove the insulation.

I have tonnes of insulated copper wire if you want it. I think you could
almost have for the picking it up. How many bins can you take per year

50 lbs? We have it by the bin full. Mostly #6 to 650 MCM. I beleive you
would have to leave a bin and then pick it up full later to compete with the
current scrapper.

Can't this tranformer be used by somebody to generate a second 120V from a
single phase 120V inverter? It sounds pretty beefy.

BTW: once you knock the wedge out of the coil form the laminations will be
easier to get out. This keeps them from buzzing until the varnish and other
impregnations go into it.

All you guys have a bad Christmas or Jewish and didn't see Santa or something?

Run each signal twisted with a ground for noise. RD twisted with gnd as a
pair, TD twisted around ground as a pair etc... This means signal/logic
ground not power ground or case ground, if they are different. Do not
connect the other ends of the ground conductors.

Tar pitch in a flourescent ballast does ***NOT*** contain PCBs and probably
never did.

Religion is not genetic or even herodigious

I believe the warmest part of the lake is just below the ice. As the water
frezes it rises to the top and joins the other ice formations.

Gel cell won't cut it when it comes to putting out 100A or more. They cook
in one spot and the rest of the electrolyte doesn't circulate fast enough.

There is nothing standard about USanian measurements. They changed their
sizes to avoid trading with the rest of the world. This worked for a few
centuries but the rest of the world moved on to the metric system to avert
the confusion the US caused.

Ever put your ohmmeter (do I need to explain an ohmmeter also?) across a
capacitor? It measures infinity after charging to the supply voltage because
the electrolyte is an insulator.

Electrolytes are not conductors of electricity in a capacitor.

If the electrolyte conducted it would be a resistor.

I doubt they are 4 farads. More likely 4 microfarads uf. ##referring to
4000mfd caps##

Sometimes it is an ego boost to have these so-called "professionals" come
and beg for information because they can't our toys do what the good guys
can but I would never hire them given a choice.

Do you measure altitude in degrees? Many aeronautical people would disagree
with you. ##referring to solar azimuth/altitude thread##

My house is filled with motion detectors. They don't all operate lights.
They mostly signal my house control computer and it decides what to do and when.

Enlighten please (like it really matters...LOL)

A 50Hz transformer needs double the iron a 60Hz transformer needs for the
same VA capacity.
 
D

daestrom

Gymy Bob said:
As a design engineer of transformers for 10 years I happen to know you are
full of shit.

If you design iron core transformers, you know that the volts/hz ratio is
very important in avoiding saturation of the iron. And that the VA rating
is the product of allowable voltage and current.

You would further know that current limitations are based on heating in the
windings from I^2R losses and don't change with frequency unless you get up
above a few kHZ when skin affect starts to seriously reduce the effective
resistance.

The fact that you *don't* know this means you either design just air-core
units, or are blowing a lot of smoke.

daestrom
 
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