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Stage Line 500W amp repair project

most people on here are better than me!! i have a hard time understanding exactly what i am to do to give you guys the best information and to not waste your time,
if i didnt need help and advice i would not be on here,if i could understand the current flow of the schematic i would test each componant in sequance untill i found the bad one, but i know its not as simple as that,
i do apologise if you think i am being funny in any way!!
i would still like you gurs to read along and help out,
have you read the full thread from the start? me and kris have been working on this for about 3 months now, and a LOT has been done,
like the link on Q2 that i have just posted in post #259,
i have no idea if this has anything to do with the odd reading aroung R108, as i said i am basically following instruction and trying to learn and understand how all these componants work,
i dare say if it was in front of you Adam , Bob or Kris, you could have it sorted and boxed off in a day, parts allowing of course,
but this is a learning project for me, and i have learnt quite a lot in 3 month,
if you go back to the first few posts you will see how liltte i actually did know to start with, including how to use this forum:(

thanks again and if you think you see something were missing, please do pitch in,

pete.
 
could it have anything to do with this collector and emitter link still being in place on Q2
I don't think so, it is well isolated by 100K resistors from the circuit in question.

I don't remember where that link came from, was it to bypass the protection circuit?

Bob
 
Could I mesure the components on the right Chanel and compare it against the readings of the corresponding components on the left Chanel ,
For example R108 and R130, so on and so on?
 
You could, but we already know what you should be measuring and what you measure and it indicates that the junction of R108 and the base of the transistor is shorted to the positive supply rail. Any measurements of the right channel would not tell us any more.

Bob
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Sorry Pete. I haven't been supporting you as I should have been.

-----
First some notes on using your multimeter. I should have explained this earlier, and I think you've figured it out already, but it doesn't hurt to be clear.

Always have the probes in the COM socket (black probe) and VΩmA socket (red probe) unless we ask you to measure a high current. (We probably won't ask you to do that.)

To measure voltage, use the VDC ranges on the top left of the range switch.

The amplifier needs to be powered up for voltage measurements, and you need to be very careful not to let the probe slip and short things together, because that can damage components, even if the short is only very brief.

If possible, clip one probe (usually the black one) onto a terminal so you can forget about it and concentrate on the red probe only.

This amplifier does have dangerous voltages in it, and not just in the mains circuitry. So make sure your hands and arms don't make contact with anything in there. I find that a large sheet of corrugated cardboard under your forearm and wrist is good for keeping your skin from touching anything, while still giving your hand some solid support so you can control the probe firmly.


Since this amplifier doesn't have any voltages over about 130V in it, you can start with the 200 range, which measures voltages up to 200V. Connect the probes to the two points in the circuit where you want to measure the "voltage between", or across the component where you want to measure "voltage across".

The meter will display the voltage in volts. If the reading is less than 20, change to the 20 range, because this will give you another digit of resolution. The displayed value is still in volts.

If the reading is less than 2.00, change to the 2000m range. The meter now displays the voltage in mV (millivolts), so for example if it displays 1325, the voltage is "1325 mV", which is the same as 1.325V. The maximum indication on this range is 1999 mV (just a fraction under 2000 mV, which is 2V).

If the reading is less than 200, you can change to the 200m range. The reading is still in mV but there is an extra digit of resolution. This isn't important in an audio amplifier so there's no need to bother with it.


For measuring resistance, use the Ω ranges at the bottom left of the range switch.

The process is the same as with voltage, but you normally measure with the unit powered down. You still need to avoid touching things because your skin and body resistance could affect your measurements.

Resistance is measured in ohms (Ω). 1000Ω equals one kilohm (kΩ) and 1,000,000Ω equals one megohm (MΩ). Your meter displays values in Ω and kΩ only.

If you know what resistance you expect, choose the lowest range that's higher than that value. If the resistance is higher than the maximum that the range can display, the meter shows an overload indication (0L or 1. or something like that). So choose the next range up, as necessary.

-----
Back to the amplifier.

We need to figure out what's going on with the voltages around R108 back in post #169.

The first photo in post #239 shows us that near that part of the circuit, there are two power resistors (which get hot and can damage the PCB) and a large capacitor stuck to the board with brown goop which can sometimes become corrosive with age.

We also have some very mysterious measurements around R108. Bob's suggestion in post #254 would explain them, but it seems somewhat unlikely to me. Whatever the problem is, we need to fix it.

The problem circuit is actually very simple - just two resistors and a zener diode in series:

epoint 270979 R108 circuit.png
Q46 should be removed from the board, so we can ignore it. I've indicated that with the red cross on the wire that goes to Q46's base.

So we have three components in series - R108, R117 and D38 - connected between two voltage rails - +45VL (which is running at about +66V because the output transistors are disconnected so there's no load on the power supply), and -45VL (which is running at about -66V for the same reason).

So these three components have about 132V total connected across them. This causes current to flow through the circuit. The same current flows through all three components, and the total voltage is split into three voltages that add up to the total.

The current causes a roughly constant voltage of 51V to appear across D38, because that's what a 51V zener diode does. The remaining voltage, around 80V, is split between R108 and R117 in proportion to their resistance.

Their total resistance is 28 kΩ so 1/28th of 80V, which is about 2.8V, should appear across R108, and 27/28 of 80V, which is about 77V, should appear across R117.

BUT when you measure those voltages, there is no voltage across R108. That is very mysterious, because according to the diagram, there are no other components in the circuit, and you measured R108 as having the correct resistance!

Current must be flowing through D38 and R117 because there is plenty of voltage across them, but it doesn't seem to be flowing through R108 because there is no voltage drop across it, despite it having the right resistance.

This is why Bob suggested that perhaps the bottom end of R108 is shorted to +45VL (that would provide a path for the current through R117 and D38) but the top end is disconnected (that would explain why R108 measures the right resistance).

So we need to concentrate on that part of the circuit - everything physically close to R108. I would like to see a photo the same as the first photo in post #239 but rotated so the writing is the right way round and, if possible, showing Q46 and R108 without interference from the large white resistors marked 100RJ, and a photo of the underside of the board in exactly the same area.

If you have refitted Q46, can you please remove it again, and before you take the photos, clean the underside of the board with solvent (isopropyl alcohol is best) and a toothbrush and/or cotton swab, and then power up and re-measure the voltages from post #169, then power off and re-measure resistance across R108.
 
355877F8-D397-42B7-9011-12875ED404E8_zpsrdddu9of.jpg
8D765BF3-3734-4B37-9A74-46723C6F4B04_zpsbsffcamg.jpg
 
ok bottom end of D38 = -67.2VDC
top end or D38= -17.4VDC
top end of R117 = 67.2VDC

power off and R108 measures 989, with the meter set on the 2000 in the Ω range
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Hey! You've done some good work there, Pete! You used some of the machine screw sockets so you can easily remove and reconnect Q46 and R108, and your soldering is excellent!

I don't see anything wrong but I'm worried about the brown goop around those electrolytics. Some types of goop have been known to become corrosive with age (or moisture, perhaps) and damage component leads.

I think we need to fix this left channel protection circuit fault first, and if that goop turns out to be involved, remove all of it, wherever you can find it. But let's get the problem fixed first.
power off and R108 measures 989, with the meter set on the 2000 in the Ω range
OK, that's right. Can you make some more measurements:
  • With R108 in-circuit and Q46 still removed, and power OFF, measure resistance between Q46's B and E connection points.
  • In the same conditions but with power ON, measure voltage between the same points (red probe to E).
 
Hi kris,
sorry for the late reply, thanks for the comment on my work appreciated :)
ok, R108 is still in circuit and resistance between Q46's B and E is 989 with the meter on the 2000 in the Ω range

power on and voltage between Q46's B and E is 00.4 then dropped off to 00.0, with the meter set on the 200m in the VDC range! (red probe on E)
 
Ok, dont know if this was a good idea or not, but decided to mesure the current at the C and E of Q51 mesured to T4, both were almost the same! 66.3VDC,
so decided to bridge C and E of Q46 with a fusable resistor :eek:,
good news is nothing went POP and the fault LED has gone off!!!

am i right in thinking Q46 is supposed to pass the current from emitter and out through the collector, the base being the switch of gate so to speak, so the problem is Q46's base is not getting the correct voltage or + - current to opperate?
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Ok, dont know if this was a good idea or not, but decided to mesure the current at the C and E of Q51 mesured to T4, both were almost the same! 66.3VDC, so decided to bridge C and E of Q46 with a fusable resistor :eek:, good news is nothing went POP and the fault LED has gone off!!!

am i right in thinking Q46 is supposed to pass the current from emitter and out through the collector, the base being the switch of gate so to speak, so the problem is Q46's base is not getting the correct voltage or + - current to opperate?
Yes, you're exactly right. Current through D38 and R117 is supposed to produce a voltage drop across R108, which is supposed to bias Q46 ON so it feeds +45V from its emitter to its collector. So you've confirmed that if Q46 was turning ON, the fault LED would go out. We need to find out why it's not turning ON!
R108 is still in circuit and resistance between Q46's B and E is 989 with the meter on the 2000 in the Ω range. power on and voltage between Q46's B and E is 00.4 then dropped off to 00.0, with the meter set on the 200m in the VDC range! (red probe on E)
Yes, that's pretty confusing! Here's a thought. Maybe R117 is open circuit. It's right next to that brown goop. Measure resistance across it on the underside without disturbing it. It should be 27 kΩ so measure on the 200k range in the Ω section. If it measures wrong, try pushing it around to see if it's damaged.
 
I can read the schematic but have a problem understanding how you can have + 45V one side and -45V the other with a few resistors and diodes inbetween, is Q46 base supposed to be + or -, i don't see how combining the two can work ???
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
I don't think it's D38. What's the story with R117? I think I'm onto something there! Don't keep me in suspenders :)

Here's how Q46's base circuit is supposed to work. Initially assuming that Q46 isn't present. Voltage is applied across the string of three components - D38, R117 and R108, and causes current to flow through them. This causes that voltage to be split up into three voltages according to the characteristics of the components. D38 drops about 51V because that's what zener diodes do, and the remaining voltage is split between R117 and R108 in direct proportion to their resistances.

These voltages are all positive at the "top" end of the component, i.e. at the end that's towards the positive rail. There should be about 3V across R108, with the junction with R117 being about 3V negative relative to the other end. This is the right polarity to bias Q46 into conduction - a PNP transistor requires its base to be negative relative to its emitter.

When you connect Q46 into circuit, the voltages change slightly because of the characteristics of the transistor. A transistor's base-emitter junction behaves like a diode and it actually clamps the voltage across it to around 0.7V (depending on the amount of current). This reduces the voltage across R108 to about 0.7V, so R117 will have slightly more voltage across it.

We have been testing with Q46 out of circuit, and in that situation, the circuit is very simple - just those three components. Since R108 is the correct value, but there's no voltage across it, there must not be any current flowing in that path. But the voltage you measured at the junction of D38 and R117 looks right, which means there must be current flowing through D38. But I think that current was actually flowing into your multimeter, not through R117, so that was a measurement error - measuring the voltage at that point in the circuit actually changed the voltage at that point. This can happen in some circumstances. Without the meter connected, I don't think there was any current flowing through those three components at all. That's why I suspect R117 is open circuit. And the fact that it's right next to the brown goop makes me even more suspicious.
 
Ok, measured R117 while in circuit, meter set to 200K , I only get a reading with the red probe on the top of R117, it reads 69.0 and keeps going up the longer I hold the probes on, am I getting interfere from the caps, going to remove one leg and retest
 
Ok, measured R117 while in circuit, meter set to 200K , I only get a reading with the red probe on the top of R117, it reads 69.0 and keeps going up the longer I hold the probes on, am I getting interfere from the caps, going to remove one leg and retest

With one leg of R117 removed I get no reading at all with the probes either way round even with the meter set on 200, so it looks like it's dead
 
Thought I would test them with my meter before I fitted them, and guess what they read 6.78K !!! Looks like I need to take my meter to maplins with me to check as I think they have sold me the wrong ones!!! Aaaahhhhhh !!!!!
 
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