Running Copper Clad Kapton Through Laser Printer

D from BC · Feb 2, 2007

My conclusions:
1) The copper foil needs to be prepared to protect drum.
2) Due to heat and electrostatic property differences between paper
and metal, it most likely won't work.
3) It is risky to the laser printer
4) There is hope that my coating idea might work to improve direct
toner transfer. Although not mentioned in any of the articles I read.
D from BC

D from BC · Feb 2, 2007

If I recall correctly, they said to tape the flex board to a standard piece
of paper (by its edges) to make it feed through the print path. The examples
looked pretty straightforward.

I'd be interested to hear how it works out.

Chris

Thanks..
I'm still thinking about it..
I'll put some pics on my website if successful.. Link will be posted.
D from BC

D from BC · Feb 2, 2007

It might seem like just another DIY homebrew PCB idea but I'd like to
take it a step further..
It leads to exploring DIY Al metal core PCB's.
I can bond the flex cct. to aluminum sheets.
This provides heat sinking and ground plane for single sided SMD
PCB's.
So...the idea of feeding flex cct material (Cu on kapton) through a
laser printer seemed worthy to check out..
D from BC

jasen · Feb 3, 2007

I suspect this is a Google item. ...But I'm gambling that it's kinda
novel and so posting here instead.

Proposed Idea: 1oz copper clad kapton film 8x11 run through laser
printer.

Purpose: Cheapass PCB making.

Problem: Don't know enough about laser printer operation.
(Some sort of electrostatic charging + toner and heat if I recall )

Without opening up a physics book, I am right that this won't work?

Hmm, drum is charged, discharged via photoelectric effect, toner is
deposited, copper surface presented to drum, but I forget what makes the
drum let go of the toner... it might work....

Problem 2: Will 1oz copper clad kapton most likely jam up the feeder?

find a printer with a flat paper path, such are usually advertised as being
capable of printing cardstock.

Anyone here fed weirdass materials into a cheapo $200 laser printer?
D from BC

you might do better experimenting with a junky used photocopier.

desktop laser printers would almost certainly jam.

thermal wax printers may be another option, probably easier to clean
off too.

Bye.
Jasen

jasen · Feb 3, 2007

I wonder if you could use a thermal WAX dot matrix printer,like Tektronix
made before they sold their printer division to Xerox.
Etchant won't touch the wax. Getting it off after etching could be messy.

A little kerosene or wax stripper (floor cleaner),
or depending on the meltng point, a dishwasher (with dishwasher detergent)
could maybe do it.

I wonder what could be done with a foil printer...

me · Feb 3, 2007

Hmm, drum is charged, discharged via photoelectric effect, toner is
deposited, copper surface presented to drum, but I forget what makes
the drum let go of the toner... it might work....

find a printer with a flat paper path, such are usually advertised as
being capable of printing cardstock.

you might do better experimenting with a junky used photocopier.

desktop laser printers would almost certainly jam.

I don't think that is so, I have made quite a few transparencies (about
3.5 mil thick) with no problems. From what I have seen

(http://www2.dupont.com/Pyralux/en_US/assets/downloads/pdf/FRclad_H-
73233.pdf)

the two are quite similar...

D from BC · Feb 3, 2007

I tried it!!!

Theory:
Coating Cu clad kapton may make it laser printable.
The idea is to let the laser printer charge the coating to attract the
toner off the drum.
The coating is removed by a chemical wash leaving the toner intact.

Test Results
Photos (~700Mb) on site (smaller photos by request)

After printout (looks great!)
http://www.members.shaw.ca/chainsaw/SED/P1010040.JPG
http://www.members.shaw.ca/chainsaw/SED/P1010039.JPG

After chemical wash (looks like sh*t!)
http://www.members.shaw.ca/chainsaw/SED/P1010003.JPG
http://www.members.shaw.ca/chainsaw/SED/P1010001.JPG

Conclusion: Failed

... But was close!!!

Suspected problems:
Toner is not fusing completely to coating. Superficial.

D from BC

D from BC · Feb 3, 2007

A little kerosene or wax stripper (floor cleaner),
or depending on the meltng point, a dishwasher (with dishwasher detergent)
could maybe do it.

I wonder what could be done with a foil printer...

Foil printer??? I gotta Google that..
Is that what's printing on beer cans??

D from BC

D from BC · Feb 3, 2007

Photos (~700Mb) on site (smaller photos by request)

Ooops ...
Supposed to be photos (~700Kb/photo)

D from BC

joseph2k · Feb 3, 2007

D said:
It's like some topics on here... It's not interesting enough to know
what was discussed just only that it was discussed.. Make mental notes
and then if it becomes relevant someday, dig it up from the achieves..

Thanks anyways... It's still helpful.
D from BC

Besides, you have already been taught here how to do our own research. It
is past time for you to start doing it.

I would try PET (Mylar) first, Kapton is ex$pen$ive.

joseph2k · Feb 3, 2007

me said:
HP 7475A, I still have one, it does print boards nicely, though I had to
make a frame to hold smaller boards.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy
via Encryption =----

I have seen them. A generic HPGL driver should do. What interface though,
GPIB is getting rare now.

joseph2k · Feb 3, 2007

James said:
You could roughen the copper surface by giving it a quick wipe with
etchant. I fear however, the bug-a-boo is that the drum will get
quickly scratched--copper's a lot harder than paper.

Best of luck!
James Arthur

Then steel wool roughen the Kapton side instead.

joseph2k · Feb 3, 2007

D said:
It might seem like just another DIY homebrew PCB idea but I'd like to
take it a step further..
It leads to exploring DIY Al metal core PCB's.
I can bond the flex cct. to aluminum sheets.
This provides heat sinking and ground plane for single sided SMD
PCB's.
So...the idea of feeding flex cct material (Cu on kapton) through a
laser printer seemed worthy to check out..
D from BC

It is time to put on your thinking cap. What about a conductive surface
interferes with image transfer? What can be done about that that can be
readily undone (without damaging the pattern) before going into the etch
phase?

John Popelish · Feb 3, 2007

D said:
I tried it!!!

Theory:
Coating Cu clad kapton may make it laser printable.
The idea is to let the laser printer charge the coating to attract the
toner off the drum.
The coating is removed by a chemical wash leaving the toner intact.

Test Results
Photos (~700Mb) on site (smaller photos by request)

After printout (looks great!)
http://www.members.shaw.ca/chainsaw/SED/P1010040.JPG
http://www.members.shaw.ca/chainsaw/SED/P1010039.JPG

After chemical wash (looks like sh*t!)
http://www.members.shaw.ca/chainsaw/SED/P1010003.JPG
http://www.members.shaw.ca/chainsaw/SED/P1010001.JPG

Conclusion: Failed ... But was close!!!

Suspected problems:
Toner is not fusing completely to coating. Superficial.

The fuser roll is hot enough to get a sheet of paper up to
toner melting temperature, but not hot enough to get this
stack that hot. I suggest you try with the copper preheated
a bit. You don't want it hot enough to melt the toner on to
the photo sensitive drum, but just warm. A few degrees can
make a big difference. Toner has a pretty sharp melting
temperature.

Henry Kiefer · Feb 3, 2007

How do you make the coating?

regards -
Henry

D from BC · Feb 3, 2007

How do you make the coating?

regards -
Henry

I worked on the coating idea and part of my reward is keeping it a
secret.

I haven't seen the coating idea on the net yet..

D from BC

D from BC · Feb 3, 2007

The fuser roll is hot enough to get a sheet of paper up to
toner melting temperature, but not hot enough to get this
stack that hot. I suggest you try with the copper preheated
a bit. You don't want it hot enough to melt the toner on to
the photo sensitive drum, but just warm. A few degrees can
make a big difference. Toner has a pretty sharp melting
temperature.

Interesting...
Reminds me of a wave solder machine

I could probably preheat (everything) by putting the printer in the
kitchen oven

It's just a desk laser printer HP Laserjet 1020 ($200.CAD).

I might try preheating with a spot light...
Thanks
D from BC

Henry Kiefer · Feb 3, 2007

| I haven't seen the coating idea on the net yet..

The coating idea is not so new but I never seen a working solution.
Indeed, I tried a test series january 2006 but refused it because of other projects.

You can keep it secret but then you will be alone ;-)

Now it attracts me again. I have high-quality copper-foil with epoxy-foil laminated to offer.

- Henry

John E. · Feb 3, 2007

Thus spake D from BC:

After chemical wash (looks like sh*t!)

Might a clothes iron do the job? The common method of making a laser printer
PCB (last time I Googled this) is to use hard-coated (shiny) paper with the
(reverse-printed) PC image and to transfer the image onto a cleaned copper
PCB using a hot iron on the back of the paper. This melts the toner onto the
copper.

Maybe find some non-stick material (is teflon smooth enough?) to lay over
your copper foil when it emerges from the printer and by heating, better melt
the toner to the foil. Or maybe just put the foil with image into the oven
for a few minutes? Seems that higher temperature is all that might be needed
to make it stick better...

Great concept.

Good luck,

D from BC · Feb 3, 2007

Thus spake D from BC:

Might a clothes iron do the job? The common method of making a laser printer
PCB (last time I Googled this) is to use hard-coated (shiny) paper with the
(reverse-printed) PC image and to transfer the image onto a cleaned copper
PCB using a hot iron on the back of the paper. This melts the toner onto the
copper.

Maybe find some non-stick material (is teflon smooth enough?) to lay over
your copper foil when it emerges from the printer and by heating, better melt
the toner to the foil. Or maybe just put the foil with image into the oven
for a few minutes? Seems that higher temperature is all that might be needed
to make it stick better...

Great concept.

Good luck,

I haven't thought that yet.. Thanks...
I'll try kitchen oven heating at 200C or ironing for improving the
toner fusion.
D from BC

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