Re: costco honda generator

[Bruce in alaska]

You obviously understood nothing I wrote. I explained that I'm
not the world's leading expert on the subject and can only write
about my own extensive experience with generators which includes
the very small to a few large EMD systems. Most of my experience
is with gasoline and natural gas powered systems. I have limited
experience with diesel powered units and have never had to tear
down and repair a diesel engine. My experience on diesel gensets
is limited to maintenance of the engine and repairs to the various
electrical and electronic assemblies. I once had to repair the
voltage regulator from a GM Delco 20kw diesel genset that was in
the hold of our 100 foot crew boat in The Marshall Islands. I took
the regulator to the island TV shop and discovered a thermal
intermittent caused by a defective unijunction transistor on the
circuit board. I was able to find a close match in the stock of
TV repair parts and fix the problem. That was 20 years ago and I've
repaired more than a few since then. Please include a source to
your allegations of my ignorance since I'm not the world's leading
expert and would very much like to learn as much as I can.

TDD

Well, I, for one, agree with this "You" fellow, in that Stabilizer isn't
needed in Diesel Fuel, for the operation of Diesel Engines. I have 40+
years of operating, maintaining, and generating ALL my own power, out
here in the bush of Alaska, mostly with diesel fueled Gensets. I have
burned diesel fuel that was left over for WWII, and was over 40 years
old at the time of use. It was in sealed 55USG Drums, found in an old
Military Bunker. Burned just fine, with no difference in generating
capacity noted during the run. If you have clean diesel going in to your
tank, and keep the water out of the tank, diesel will store basically
"Forever". I have a 250KUSG TankFarm, that we fill every fall, and the
diesel is just as good in the spring, as it was, when it was pumped in
the previous Fall. Some of the fuel in those tanks may be 2 or 3 years
old, before it gets used. Never had a problem in 40 years, except ONCE,
when we got a Barge Load, with bugs in the fuel. We had to biocide three
tanks, and so did every other customer that got a delivery from that
Barge, that trip. All paid for, by the distributer, and a BIG Apology,
for delivering Bad Fuel. We don't get the GasOhol Crap that the Feds
force on you Flatlanders, as the barge can only carry one Grade of
Gasoline, and it needs to be FAA Certified for 80/86 Low Lead AVGAS,
so we don't have to deal with most of the Gasoline problems you guys do.
Our #1 Diesel is JetA50, as well, so we always get the "Good Stuff" from
the Distributer, rather than the slop they pump to the Consumer Sales
places.

 

[The Daring Dufas]

Well, I, for one, agree with this "You" fellow, in that Stabilizer isn't
needed in Diesel Fuel, for the operation of Diesel Engines. I have 40+
years of operating, maintaining, and generating ALL my own power, out
here in the bush of Alaska, mostly with diesel fueled Gensets. I have
burned diesel fuel that was left over for WWII, and was over 40 years
old at the time of use. It was in sealed 55USG Drums, found in an old
Military Bunker. Burned just fine, with no difference in generating
capacity noted during the run. If you have clean diesel going in to your
tank, and keep the water out of the tank, diesel will store basically
"Forever". I have a 250KUSG TankFarm, that we fill every fall, and the
diesel is just as good in the spring, as it was, when it was pumped in
the previous Fall. Some of the fuel in those tanks may be 2 or 3 years
old, before it gets used. Never had a problem in 40 years, except ONCE,
when we got a Barge Load, with bugs in the fuel. We had to biocide three
tanks, and so did every other customer that got a delivery from that
Barge, that trip. All paid for, by the distributer, and a BIG Apology,
for delivering Bad Fuel. We don't get the GasOhol Crap that the Feds
force on you Flatlanders, as the barge can only carry one Grade of
Gasoline, and it needs to be FAA Certified for 80/86 Low Lead AVGAS,
so we don't have to deal with most of the Gasoline problems you guys do.
Our #1 Diesel is JetA50, as well, so we always get the "Good Stuff" from
the Distributer, rather than the slop they pump to the Consumer Sales
places.

I also agree that diesel doesn't need stabilizer like the gasoline
that it's meant for. The information I have indicates that newer
diesel blends aren't as good as the older blends because of government
mandated emission standards. Hell, you guys in Alaska know more about
diesel generators and small airplanes than any other Americans for
obvious reasons. It wouldn't surprise me if you didn't get fuel from
Russia from some folks who also know what works in the God awful cold.
I would imagine that the 40 year old diesel fuel you found was not
kept in a warm environment. I think the problems I faced with diesel
fuel in a tropical climate may not plague you in your somewhat less
tropical climate in Alaska. We had extreme humidity and condensation
to deal with and tried to keep things warm to drive moisture out of
equipment. Bugs love the tropics. By the way, correct me if I'm wrong
but isn't jet fuel blended with additives to prevent gelling or microbe
infestation since jet fuel is often exposed to environmental extremes?

TDD

 

[Stormin Mormon]

Many years ago, sometime in the eighties. I met a fellow who
told me he ran out of gas one night, along the road. A
trucker stopped by to help. they drained a couple galons of
diesel out of the truck tank, and poured into the car. The
car ran very poorly, but did run.

Like you say, wouldn't totally surprise me if Alaskans
bought fuel from Russia. More likely, Russians come over to
buy fuel. Since supply problems used to be epidemic in
Mother Russia. Like how medical care is a problem in Canada,
and they come to Michigan.

Wasn't there something about jet fuel, they wanted to add a
jelly something so that if a plane crashed, the fuel didn't
atomize and make an explosive mist?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


message
I also agree that diesel doesn't need stabilizer like the
gasoline
that it's meant for. The information I have indicates that
newer
diesel blends aren't as good as the older blends because of
government
mandated emission standards. Hell, you guys in Alaska know
more about
diesel generators and small airplanes than any other
Americans for
obvious reasons. It wouldn't surprise me if you didn't get
fuel from
Russia from some folks who also know what works in the God
awful cold.
I would imagine that the 40 year old diesel fuel you found
was not
kept in a warm environment. I think the problems I faced
with diesel
fuel in a tropical climate may not plague you in your
somewhat less
tropical climate in Alaska. We had extreme humidity and
condensation
to deal with and tried to keep things warm to drive moisture
out of
equipment. Bugs love the tropics. By the way, correct me if
I'm wrong
but isn't jet fuel blended with additives to prevent gelling
or microbe
infestation since jet fuel is often exposed to environmental
extremes?

TDD

 

[Bruce in alaska]

By the way, correct me if I'm wrong
but isn't jet fuel blended with additives to prevent gelling or microbe
infestation since jet fuel is often exposed to environmental extremes?

TDD

Nope, "Jet Fuel" as you call it is JetA50, and is the same thing a #1
Diesel, Home Heating Oil, and a few other names. The difference is,
that to be classed JetA50, and sold for Aviation Fuel, it MUST be
Filtered to FAA Spec, and be within the Specific Gravity, FAA Spec.
So, what the Distributer does, is he has only one Grade of #1 Diesel in
his tanks and when he pumps it for Transport to a customer, it goes thru
a different set of filtering for Aviation, than for Home Heating, or #1
Diesel, but it all comes from the SAME Tank. With #2 Diesel, in cold
climates, they have what is called "Winter Mix" where the Distributer
will mix #1 and #2 Diesel, to lower the GellPoint of the fuel when
loading the Truck or Barge, for deliveries starting about August, and
increase the Ratio of #1 to #2 the farther North and away from the coast
the fuel is destine for. For Gasoline, the distributer will have an
"Additive Package" that they add to the Tank when dispatching a Load,
designed for the prospective customer. Many times Shell, Chevron, and
Mobile Gas Stations, will get their fuel from the same Distributer or
supplier and the only difference in the fuel is the "Additive Package"
put in, as the basic fuel, ALL COMES FROM THE SAME TANK. Depends on who
owns the Refinery, or where the Distributer bough his fuel from, the
last time. I have seen the same truck at two or three different Brand
Gas Stations, in town, on the same day, delivering fuel. the distributer
is 250 miles away, so you know they didn't fill the truck three times
that day.

 

[George]

Nope, "Jet Fuel" as you call it is JetA50, and is the same thing a #1
Diesel, Home Heating Oil, and a few other names. The difference is,
that to be classed JetA50, and sold for Aviation Fuel, it MUST be
Filtered to FAA Spec, and be within the Specific Gravity, FAA Spec.
So, what the Distributer does, is he has only one Grade of #1 Diesel in
his tanks and when he pumps it for Transport to a customer, it goes thru
a different set of filtering for Aviation, than for Home Heating, or #1
Diesel, but it all comes from the SAME Tank.

My buddy has a liquid fuels business and I have seen the tanks and
pumping systems at multiple fuel dumps and they all had a totally
separate tank for Jet A if Jet A was delivered from that facility. In my
area there are two huge fuel dumps but the Jet A used at the local
airports is trucked in on transports from another state. Also there
isn't a tank called "#1 diesel". They have multiple tanks for ULSD and
LSD and kerosene.

With #2 Diesel, in cold

climates, they have what is called "Winter Mix" where the Distributer
will mix #1 and #2 Diesel, to lower the GellPoint of the fuel when
loading the Truck or Barge, for deliveries starting about August, and
increase the Ratio of #1 to #2 the farther North and away from the coast
the fuel is destine for. For Gasoline, the distributer will have an
"Additive Package" that they add to the Tank when dispatching a Load,
designed for the prospective customer.

It is more complicated than that. Certain additives are required and
certain additives are optional. They have an array of injector pumps
that meter in the additives when the truck is on the loading rack
according to what the customer purchased.

Many times Shell, Chevron, and

Mobile Gas Stations, will get their fuel from the same Distributer or
supplier and the only difference in the fuel is the "Additive Package"
put in, as the basic fuel, ALL COMES FROM THE SAME TANK. Depends on who
owns the Refinery, or where the Distributer bough his fuel from, the
last time. I have seen the same truck at two or three different Brand
Gas Stations, in town, on the same day, delivering fuel. the distributer
is 250 miles away, so you know they didn't fill the truck three times
that day.

All truck tankers have bulkheads to form multiple compartments. That
adds strength and limits spillage in case the tanker is damaged and it
also allows them to haul different product in each compartment if they want.

 

[The Daring Dufas]

This should clarify what aviation fuel is and isn't

http://www.chevron.com/products/ourfuels/prodserv/fuels/documents/aviation_fuels.pdf

Thanks for the link, it clarified some of what I've heard.

TDD

 

[daestrom]

Nope, "Jet Fuel" as you call it is JetA50, and is the same thing a #1
Diesel, Home Heating Oil, and a few other names. The difference is,
that to be classed JetA50, and sold for Aviation Fuel, it MUST be
Filtered to FAA Spec, and be within the Specific Gravity, FAA Spec.
So, what the Distributer does, is he has only one Grade of #1 Diesel in
his tanks and when he pumps it for Transport to a customer, it goes thru
a different set of filtering for Aviation, than for Home Heating, or #1
Diesel, but it all comes from the SAME Tank. With #2 Diesel, in cold
climates, they have what is called "Winter Mix" where the Distributer
will mix #1 and #2 Diesel, to lower the GellPoint of the fuel when
loading the Truck or Barge, for deliveries starting about August, and
increase the Ratio of #1 to #2 the farther North and away from the coast
the fuel is destine for. For Gasoline, the distributer will have an
"Additive Package" that they add to the Tank when dispatching a Load,
designed for the prospective customer. Many times Shell, Chevron, and
Mobile Gas Stations, will get their fuel from the same Distributer or
supplier and the only difference in the fuel is the "Additive Package"
put in, as the basic fuel, ALL COMES FROM THE SAME TANK. Depends on who
owns the Refinery, or where the Distributer bough his fuel from, the
last time. I have seen the same truck at two or three different Brand
Gas Stations, in town, on the same day, delivering fuel. the distributer
is 250 miles away, so you know they didn't fill the truck three times
that day.

ISTR this is even true with pipelines. When company 'A' puts several
thousands of barrels of #1 'into' the pipeline company's head end, the
pipeline company will deliver the same number of barrels out the end
point without actually trying to calculate transport time or any such.
The fuel that goes into company A's tank could have just as easily been
put in by another company shipping the same product.

As it is a totally fungible commodity, the pipeline company just logs
how many barrels in one end and that many barrels belong to company 'A'
at the other end.

But as far as #1, truck fuel, and aviation, is it still all the same now
that road diesel has to be that special (more expensive) ultra-low
sulfur stuff? Or is home heating oil (#1) and aviation jet fuel also
ultra-low sulfur now?

daestrom

 

[George]

You can add paraffin (kerosine) to diesel to stop it gelling in cold
weather. (Mix thoroughly).

I think maybe you meant add kerosene to lower the amount of parafin?
Parafin is what is responsible for the gelling effect.

 

[Bruce in alaska]

But as far as #1, truck fuel, and aviation, is it still all the same now
that road diesel has to be that special (more expensive) ultra-low
sulfur stuff? Or is home heating oil (#1) and aviation jet fuel also
ultra-low sulfur now?

daestrom

I can't speak for everywhere, but up here in Alaska #1 diesel is JetA50
Grade, at the Distributer and I believe that ALL our fuel is Low-Sulfur
with a Lubricant Additive Package added to fuels used in Injector and
Turbine based ICE's. Since I burn only #1 in my Gensets, so that I only
have to have one grade of fuel here at the cabin, which has a Open Pot
Diesel Burning Cookstove, and is my Primary Heat, and Hot Water source.
The fuel I get has the Lubricant Additive Package added, and the same
tanker barge delivers to the AirStrip in the next town over, from the
same tank, on the same trip.

 

[The Daring Dufas]

What you call kerosine in the USA we in the UK call paraffin.
Like hoods & bonnets. Bumpers & fenders. Trunks & boots.

That's the kind of thing that causes plane crashes and
running out of fuel in mid flight. Gallons? I thought
you meant liters.

TDD

 

[The Daring Dufas]

My mother ran out of heating oil and asked if I could bring her some. I
didn't have a barrel, but the oil distributor said he had an empty I could
borrow. When I got there he was filling it with #2 pump diesel. The same
stuff you would put in your diesel pickup or tractor. He said it was the
same stuff and my mother's furnace ran just fine.


Richard W.

I believe the only difference is dye and taxes. The DOT
is always after truck drivers using home heating oil to
run their trucks because it doesn't have the road tax
included in it's price.

TDD

 

[Eric]

That's the kind of thing that causes plane crashes and
running out of fuel in mid flight. Gallons? I thought
you meant liters.

TDD

No, he meant _litres_! ;^)

 

[The Daring Dufas]

No, he meant _litres_! ;^)

Yea, and "smoking a fag" can mean two entirely different
things. *snicker*

TDD

 

[Stormin Mormon]

Had a couple friends who managed to, often, run out of home
heating oil. Diesel runs fine. Home heat oil also works fine
with kerosene.

 

[Stormin Mormon]

I think I heard that started during world war two. When
gasoline was rationed, but kerosene was much easier
available.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..




I have seen some of those tractors, but the more common one
is the
International which is started on gas and switched over to
diesel when it
got warm. Some of those engines are fairly large.

Richard W.

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Thre are two sorts of heating oil. 25 sec and 35sec. (That's how we
measure the viscosity in the UK.) 25sec (kerosine) is for
vapourising burners. [Basically a big wick]
35 sec (= to diesel) for pressure jet burners.
25 sec can be burnt in a petrol engine. However the engine needs to
be hot before it will run. In days of yore some agricultural tractors
ran on this (known as Tractor Vapourising Oil). They had two tanks,
you started the tractor on petrol & then switch over to the kerosine /
TVO Smelly exhaust.

Yes, my late father had Fordson and Fordson Major tractors that were
like that, but I don't recall the smelly exhaust. The Ferguson he had
might have started off that way too, but he put a Perkins 3-cyl. diesel
in it.

I am guessing that they were optimized for running on TVO. Apart from
the greater cost of gasoline/petrol (even the red-dyed "commercial"
petrol, when that was available), they might not have run as well on the
latter.

Perce

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Thre are two sorts of heating oil. 25 sec and 35sec. (That's how we
measure the viscosity in the UK.) 25sec (kerosine) is for
vapourising burners. [Basically a big wick]
35 sec (= to diesel) for pressure jet burners.
25 sec can be burnt in a petrol engine. However the engine needs to
be hot before it will run. In days of yore some agricultural tractors
ran on this (known as Tractor Vapourising Oil). They had two tanks,
you started the tractor on petrol & then switch over to the kerosine /
TVO Smelly exhaust.

I have seen some of those tractors, but the more common one is the
International which is started on gas and switched over to diesel when it
got warm. Some of those engines are fairly large.

My late father had an International TD9 that started on gasoline and
then changed over to diesel, but my understanding is that it was simply
because hand-cranking a diesel engine like that was impractical, not
because it needed to warm up. The compression ratio was much lower when
it was in gasoline mode, and cranking was far easier.

Perce

 

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Thre are two sorts of heating oil. 25 sec and 35sec. (That's how we
measure the viscosity in the UK.) 25sec (kerosine) is for
vapourising burners. [Basically a big wick]
35 sec (= to diesel) for pressure jet burners.
25 sec can be burnt in a petrol engine. However the engine needs to
be hot before it will run. In days of yore some agricultural tractors
ran on this (known as Tractor Vapourising Oil). They had two tanks,
you started the tractor on petrol & then switch over to the kerosine /
TVO Smelly exhaust.
I have seen some of those tractors, but the more common one is the
International which is started on gas and switched over to diesel when it
got warm. Some of those engines are fairly large.

My late father had an International TD9 that started on gasoline and
then changed over to diesel, but my understanding is that it was simply
because hand-cranking a diesel engine like that was impractical, not
because it needed to warm up. The compression ratio was much lower when
it was in gasoline mode, and cranking was far easier.

It was Massey Ferguson over here. A very small tractor. Harry
Ferguson invented the three point linkage. With it, this tiny
tractor could do the work of a much bigger tractor of the tiime. Only
the early ones had it (around sixty years ago)

I'm talking about "over there": the UK. It was just plain Ferguson to
start with, and Massey-Harris was a different make. Then they merged --
or M-H bought Ferguson. Maybe in the late 1950s.

Later ones had a diesel engine.
There are still lots about working on farms. TVO is no longer
available so they use heating oil now.
Don't see how you can change the commpression ratio of an engine
(except model aero engines) The engine had to be hot, the TVO needed
the hot spot to vapourise it. (pre crossflow technology)
Many early diesel engines could be hand cranked, they had a valve
lifter, a little lever on the crank case (side valves) It held the
exhaust valve open, you cranked like hell & then dropped the valves
and it started (hopefully) They had big flywheels in those days,
stored lots of energy.

I understand that the IH TD-x tractors/'dozers had an additional valve
in each cylinder that opened to an "extension of the combustion chamber"
(for want of a better term) in which the spark plugs were located, thus
reducing the compression ratio; petrol/gasoline would have exploded
rather than burned with a diesel-appropriate compression ratio. They had
spark plugs, magneto and carburettor as well as injectors. There were
two controls to effect the changeover, IIRC: one near the left front
(perhaps to switch fuel supplies), plus a lever accessible from the
driver's seat. Clouds of black smoke at the changeover.

Steered with two clutch levers and two brake pedals. Steering by clutch
reversed when going downhill! I only ever drove one in a field, never on
a road.

Perce

 

[Eeyore]

I think I heard that started during world war two. When
gasoline was rationed, but kerosene was much easier
available.


I have seen some of those tractors, but the more common one
is the International which is started on gas and switched over to
diesel when it got warm. Some of those engines are fairly large.

When you say 'gas', do you mean ( liquid petroleum / natural etc ) gas
or gasoline ? We solve this confusion in the UK by calling gasoline
'petrol' ( from 'petroleum' ). Petrol, gas and diesel engined vehicles
all operate on our roads.

Graham

and to the MORMOM, please don't 'top post' since most people prefer to
see a post that starts with thee question and finishes with the answer
or follow-up comment.

 

[The Daring Dufas]

And when the kids in school ask for a rubber nobody stares, it means
eraser

In the U.S., "rubbers" used to commonly mean "rubber overshoes".

TDD