Re: Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[JW]

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/ElectricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

What makes you think we do?

 

[Jerry]

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > : You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it
so
: > much more
: > : difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring?
: > :
:
: > Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
: > necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden
:
: Only in your twisted mind.
:

Unless you care to explain what you mean?... After is one is not
going to add a spur one has to make a joint in the ring, now that
can either be crammed into the back of the existing socket,
cold-welded [1] (which is an abortion that should not be allowed
by the regs, certainly not in a domestic environment were
inspections might be few and fare between, but is) and then
buried or made using a some form of accessible -although hidden-
junction box. Of course and as I said, but was snipped by the
groups apparent new troll, one can move one half of the existing
ring to the new socket outlet -assuming that it will reach.

[1] AKA a properly crimped joint

 

[JW]

What makes you think we do?

Why else would you care what it looks like?

 

[Dave Liquorice]

Why else would you care what it looks like?

Because we don't like heavy industrial looking stuff in our homes,
even in the boiler or utility room.

 

[Jerry]

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > Nothing what so ever to do with an appliance needing more
than
: > 13amps, that is something you introduced in an attempt to
troll,
: > it's everything to do with the appliance fuse blowing at 5pm
on a
: > Sunday and there being no replacement - husband is being
screamed
: > at by SWMBO because she wants to get the washing, hovering or
: > what ever done so hubby goes off in search of something - of
: > course those with common sense will rob Peter to pay Paul.
:
: Most home in the UK will have many many devices fitted with 13
amp plugs,
: and many of those also with 13 amp fuses.

Yes as I said, but many of those devices will, or might need to,
be in use to. In any case most people do not act like Magpies or
Wombles, hence why one sees so many serviceable or otherwise
appliances and electronic goods at the local waste/recycling
dumps.

:
: It would take a true idiot to spend time cutting a nail or
whatever to fit
: rather than taking the fuse from one of those other devices.
:

How long would it take to, as others have pointed out, wrap such
a fuse in kitchen foil, a length of wire or paperclip etc...

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I suspect that's because the average person goes into a shop and buys
a mains plug for his (say) desk lamp. He gets it home to find it's
fitted with 13 amp fuse, either through not knowing any better or just
not having any 1 amp, 2 amp or 5amp fuses in the house, fits the plug
anyway.

Surely everything by law is now supplied with a plug fitted?

It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable is almost
certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a dead short.
It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic appliances in the
UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
(hopefully)correct fuse.

Yup. Some seem to think the flex rating is that where it could only just
blow a fuse of that rating.

Jerry's favourite - 3 amp flex - has a cross sectional area of 0.5mm^.
Fusewire of the same cross section is rated at 30 amps...

Comparing the US and the UK domestic mains electricity installations is
pointless - as is arguing about them. (IMHO)

It's fun though.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the house.
The only dedicated outlets are for refigerators, freezers, dryers and
electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a typical breaker
panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.

Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it? Why have
different numbers according to what side of a line you live?

 

[S Viemeister]

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

And electric cookers?

 

[Don Pearce]

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual radial
circuit. As would water heating.

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Everything else was ring. On each floor you'd have a separate ring for
the sockets and lights.

d

 

[Jerry]

<snip>
: It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable
is almost
: certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a dead
short.
: It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic
appliances in the
: UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
: (hopefully)correct fuse.

But would it be enough is the plugs fuse had been bridged out and
thus fused at what ever the breaker is rated at on the panel (in
the case of UK ring circuits that is 30 amps)? Just because an
appliance comes pre-fitted with a plug and the correct fuse it
doesn't mean that it will remain so though out the life of the
device.

<snip>
: Comparing the US and the UK domestic mains electricity
installations is
: pointless - as is arguing about them. (IMHO)
:

At most Ron that is a side show, what Plowman has taken exception
to is the UK regs that allow for radial circuits, and the dangers
or otherwise of both UK spec radial and ring circuits.

 

[Jerry]

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > > You may have noticed that flex sizes have become more
uniform recently
: > > - all are now capable of blowing a 13 amps fuse in the plug
regardless
: > > in event of a short. As it seems using the correct fuse in
a plug is
: > > beyond most.
: > >
: > I suspect that's because the average person goes into a
shop and buys
: > a mains plug for his (say) desk lamp. He gets it home to find
it's
: > fitted with 13 amp fuse, either through not knowing any
better or just
: > not having any 1 amp, 2 amp or 5amp fuses in the house, fits
the plug
: > anyway.
:
: Surely everything by law is now supplied with a plug fitted?

Whooossshhhhh.... Whilst there is a problem with incorrectly
wired plugs there is a bigger problem of plugs fitted with the
incorrectly rated fuse.

:
: > It's still not really a problem because the lamps mains cable
is almost
: > certainly heavy enough to blow a 13 amp fuse if there's a
dead short.
: > It's pretty academic anyway as these days all domestic
appliances in the
: > UK are supposed to be supplied with a fitted plugtop with the
: > (hopefully)correct fuse.
:
: Yup. Some seem to think the flex rating is that where it could
only just
: blow a fuse of that rating.
:
: Jerry's favourite - 3 amp flex - has a cross sectional area of
0.5mm^.
: Fusewire of the same cross section is rated at 30 amps...

So a flex fitted to a plug that has had its fuse bridged out will
likely start to melt if feed from a ring circuit should the
appliance become faulty (short circuit), is that what you have
finally grasped Plowman, BINGO! Also don't assume that all
properties are protected by RCD's etc, many are still protected
by slooooooow acting fuse wire.

The risk is, this 3 amp flex *you* keep talking about will behave
exactly like a fusible link-wire as it *will* be the weakest
link, now should that flex be trailing across the carpet or some
other flammable item, such as curtains or the odd magazine left
on the floor next to the reading lamp.... OTOH if fed from a
radial circuit protected at 15 amps (or better and more likely,
via 5 amp socket off the lighting circuit) it will be the breaker
at the panel and not the flex that will be the weak link.

 

[Jerry]

<snip>
: Anyone here ever known of a problem or fire with a UK ring main
other
: then stupid people doing really stupid things like they could
do on ANY
: system?..
:
: I've never come across one ever in the last 50 odd years...

I don't suppose you have ever come across a murder either, does
that mean that murders don't happen either?

 

[Jerry]

<snip>
: Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things,

Only an issue if the panel is sited in a typical UK location
within the house...

 

[Jerry]

message
: On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:35:24 -0500, JW wrote:
:
: >>> Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living
room.
: >>
: >> What makes you think we do?
: >
: > Why else would you care what it looks like?
:
: Because we don't like heavy industrial looking stuff in our
homes,
: even in the boiler or utility room.
:

Actually it is just what one is used to, a bit like driving on
the right or left, anything else looks or feels weird...

Anyway, looking at the average sized UK consumer panel these days
(12 way + plus incoming main switch and such circuit switches
[1]) they are starting to look very heavy and 'industrial' anyway
(if one looks beyond the magnolia self coloured plastic cases),
gone are the days when one could get away with a slim-lined 4 or
6 way consumer unit...

[1] with the prospect of even more dedicated radials being
specified in the next few years

 

[Jerry]

message :
: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
: >
: > In article <[email protected]>,
: >
: > > There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan
of the house.
: > > The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers,
dryers and
: > > electric stoves.
: >
: > Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on
any outlet in
: > the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an
individual radial
: > circuit. As would water heating.
:
:
: A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is
more than
: your fragile rings can handle. Who is going to move a dryer
from room
: to room? The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in
anywhere, but why
: would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

In the UK, cookers *are* normally supplied by their own dedicated
supply, OTOH cheapskates like Plowman don't tend not specify
dedicated supplies to other high rated appliances such as washing
machines (that heat their water) or clothes dryers, nor will they
provide a dedicated supply to appliances that suffer other
problems if isolated, such as freezers.

:
:
: > > Other circuits can have multiple outlets in a chain.
: > > The maximum per circuit may depend on local code, but a
typical breaker
: > > panel is 20 slot and a few are empty for future use.
: >
: > Local code - and you expect those in the UK to understand it?
Why have
: > different numbers according to what side of a line you live?
:
:
: Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that
tighten
: the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it
rusts. In
: some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead
of
: steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules
in the
: NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others
limit the
: maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences
all over
: Europe, which is your side of the line.

Hahahaha, people like Plowman are as rabid about 'European'
electrical standards as they are about the US standards, "Little
Britains" through and through... :~(

 

[David Looser]

Anything, it doesn't have to be in excess of 13amps, that is the
fucking point,

You do not advance your argument by the use of foul language.

just the non availability of a replacement
fuse -*as others have pointed out also*.

No, "others" were refering to internal equipment fuses.

You wholly refuse to
accept that it is terrifyingly easy for any Frank Spencer [1]
style idiot to totally circumnavigate the end user protection
when being supplied via a ring and BS1363 plug/socket.

Its not "terrifyingly easy" to find a screw, bolt or bit of metal that will
fit into the fuse holder. Its actually far easier to take a fuse from
another plug.

For the
same to happen with radial circuits one would have to tamper with
the panels circuit protection and not just any appliance/lead
protection.

No, that is nothing like the problem, radials are not protected
at 30amps.

They can be, BS7671 permits radial circuits protected by 32A circuit
breakers. If you were the expert you try to claim you are you'd know that.

David.

 

[David Looser]

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Wad'y mean "back in the olden days"? That's the same now, except that the
radial circuit for the cooker would be rated at 45A.

Everything else was ring. On each floor you'd have a separate ring for
the sockets and lights.

Lights on a ring? never met that one. There's nothing in BS7671 to suggest
putting lights on a ring (though to be fair there's nothing to forbid it
either). What BS7671 does now require is the lights and power on any one
floor are not served by the same RCD.

David.

 

[David Looser]

A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Despite what some others may have mistakenly implied, cookers in the UK have
their own radial circuits, usually rated at 40A.

Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room?

OK, but might a dryer not be replaced by another one? A much easier process
(and probably safer if carried out by an untrained person) if connected via
a plug & socket.

The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

Same argument as for dryers.

David.

 

[Terry Casey]

When in Belgium last year, I found that, on the tramways, there was no
place to pay the driver, and no 'conductor'.

You must buy a ticket before you board if there is a ticket office
available but it there is not, or it is closed, you should buy your
ticket from the driver. As in London, fares paid on board buses and
trams are higher than pre-paid tickets

Most passengers seem to insert a card into a machine, no one checked
tickets.

No different to London (well, Croydon trams) but Revenue Protection
officers can pop up anywhere and extract penalty payments ...

I asked several folks how do I pay, they just shrugged, so it
seems travel between stops wasn't worth collecting fares for. The whole
system is remarkably cheap.

There is a difference between cheap and theft ...

So that you know what to do next time, look here (in English):

http://www.delijn.be/en/vervoerbewijzen/types/index.htm

De Liin operates buses and trams in Flanders. If you are visiting
Wallonia, the operator is TEC (Transport En Commun) and ticket info is
here (also in English):

http://www.tec-wl.be/index.aspx?PageId=633072402227864348

In Brussel/Bruxelles the trams are operated by STIB/MIVB (Société des
Transports Intercommunaux de Bruxelles/Maatschappij voor het
Intercommunaal Vervoer te Brussel):

http://www.stib.be/index.htm?l=en