Re: Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[David Looser]

Anyway, looking at the average sized UK consumer panel these days
(12 way + plus incoming main switch and such circuit switches
[1]) they are starting to look very heavy and 'industrial' anyway
(if one looks beyond the magnolia self coloured plastic cases),
gone are the days when one could get away with a slim-lined 4 or
6 way consumer unit...

Which is why I was suprised by the consumer unit in the Italian house that I
mentioned. Just 4 MCBs for a modern, 3 story house. But according to you
this was much safer than UK wiring because the plugs were unfused and they
don't use ring mains!

David.

 

[John Williamson]

Except for the entrance to The Savoy Hotel in The Strand which is the
only place in UK (as far as I know) where traffic enters on the right of
the entrance road (so that the nice doorman can open the side door to
let the customer out)

And so that the passengers and driver don't have to stretch across the
cab to exchange payment.

It took an Act of Parliament to make it so.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

: > Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
: > necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden
:
: Only in your twisted mind.
:

Unless you care to explain what you mean?... After is one is not
going to add a spur one has to make a joint in the ring,

Assuming the new socket is going somewhere between two others, cut the
cable leaving some spare where the new one goes, then run in new cable to
the next. Or new cable from the two existing sockets to the new. I don't
believe in saving pennies.

now that
can either be crammed into the back of the existing socket,
cold-welded [1] (which is an abortion that should not be allowed
by the regs, certainly not in a domestic environment were
inspections might be few and fare between, but is)

Crimped connections correctly made are by far and away the best method of
connection. Have you not noticed every single loom on a car, aircraft,
computer etc is made this way?

and then
buried or made using a some form of accessible -although hidden-
junction box. Of course and as I said, but was snipped by the
groups apparent new troll, one can move one half of the existing
ring to the new socket outlet -assuming that it will reach.

[1] AKA a properly crimped joint

There are JBs that conform to the regs when not accessible as regards the
regs.

Strange you're putting yourself forward as an expert in domestic wiring by
contradicting the regs. Could you give your qualifications for this?

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

And electric cookers?

Depends - quite a few ovens these days come with a 13 amp plug. Although
hobs normally need their own radial.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Yes. And water heating.

Everything else was ring. On each floor you'd have a separate ring for
the sockets and lights.

Ring for lights? In the early days many houses were wired with just the
one ring. Next came a separate one for the kitchen.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete electric
cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most here would go
for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be run from a 13 amp
socket.

Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room? The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

You never alter a kitchen?

Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that tighten
the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it rusts. In
some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead of
steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules in the
NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others limit the
maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences all over
Europe, which is your side of the line.

Europe is a number of different countries, which explains any differences.
Although there is some unification. But just why you'd have local codes
concerning the number of sockets in the same country escapes me. Perhaps
you'd explain?

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Which is why I was suprised by the consumer unit in the Italian house
that I mentioned. Just 4 MCBs for a modern, 3 story house. But
according to you this was much safer than UK wiring because the plugs
were unfused and they don't use ring mains!

Much the same as Spain - again new build.

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

If you want to see some spectacular electrical fails, check out the
facebook group called 'Dodgy technicians'

https://www.facebook.com/groups/dodgytechnicians/

Also take a look at:

<http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/4/1/V
iolation_Photo_Forum.html>

if the above line breaks (likely): http://tinyurl.com/84hv9y6

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

Back in the olden days there was always a cooker spur rated at 30
amps. That came straight from the fuse board to the cooker, which was
wired into the wall plate without a socket.

Also the immersion, on its own 16A radial. Though sometimes you could
find it wired into a ring.

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

Despite what some others may have mistakenly implied, cookers in the UK have
their own radial circuits, usually rated at 40A.

Single ovens usually come with a 13A plug, double ovens need a radial
circuit. Hobs usually need a radial too.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Also the immersion, on its own 16A radial. Though sometimes you could
find it wired into a ring.

This was common once, but IIRC regs changed requiring new builds (or
re-wires) to have it on a radial.

IIRC, the concept of a ring requires diversity - ie no continuous high
loads. Most domestic high loads are for fairly short periods of time. But
heating usually more constant. Water heating is sort of in between - hence
the regs changing.

 

[David Looser]

Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete electric
cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most here would go
for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be run from a 13 amp
socket.

I've not met an oven with a 13A plug, maybe this is a recent innovation. I
have a gas (bottled, I'm off the gas main) hob and a built-in double oven
which is connected via a 45A "cooker point" to a radial circuit with a 40A
MCB on the other end of it. Though there is a 13A socket in the cooker point
into which the microwave is plugged, so that shares the 40A with the oven.

David.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I've not met an oven with a 13A plug, maybe this is a recent innovation.
I have a gas (bottled, I'm off the gas main) hob and a built-in double
oven which is connected via a 45A "cooker point" to a radial circuit
with a 40A MCB on the other end of it. Though there is a 13A socket in
the cooker point into which the microwave is plugged, so that shares the
40A with the oven.

Single ovens often come with a 13 amp plug and lead, these days. Double
ones not, as the two being used together would exceed 3 kW.

The 13 amp socket on the cooker point is an older idea - really from the
days when an extra socket in the kitchen would double the number. ;-)

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

While we're talking about electrical safety, what is the current (scuse
that unintentional pun) advice on extending the lead of a freezer? I
know you have to use cable that is rated for 13A (1.5 mm^2 wire rather
than 1 mm^2) and conventional extension cables must be unrolled to
avoid inductive heating. But providing you use a cable of the correct
current rating and which is no longer than it needs to be, joined to
the original cable using a proper in-line junction box, is there a
problem? Many internet resources say "don't do it - get an electrician
to fit a socket close to the freezer", probably on a brand-new radial
line, since it is a faff rerouting a ring main to include an additional
socket. But SWMBO's father, a qualified electrician, said it's a load
of crap having a blanket ban, and is only to guard against numpties
trying to use extension cable that is rated too low.

Simplest way would be to buy a 13 amp extension lead with a single outlet
in one of the sheds or whatever and cut to length, re-using the plug
supplied with it. Most aren't moulded on.

Is it a no-no to have a spur coming off a ring main? When I was fitting
a replacement mains socket in SWMBO's house to replace one whose
faceplate had cracked, I was surprised to find *three* cables (ie 3
live, 3 neutral, 3 earth wires). I duly connected all of them to the
new socket, but should the extra socket (wherever it may be) really be
connected via the ring main? It's a 1930s house, rewired with
red/black/green wiring rather than brown/blue/green-and-yellow, though
I gather the wiring colours are only mandatory for equipment cable and
that it's quite normal to find even modern house wiring (lighting, ring
mains) in the "old" colours, so it's difficult to deduce when the
rewiring was done and therefore what building regs applied at the time.

You are allowed (current regs) a spur with one double socket maximum. Not
two singles.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Paul Ratcliffe wrote: []

**** off Yank. Patronising bastards aren't you?

Not as much as you Brits. You won't take anyone's word on the
subject, and you would claim the NEC is wrong, as well.

What has the Nippon Electric Company done?

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Mortimer

While we're talking about electrical safety, what is the current (scuse
that unintentional pun) advice on extending the lead of a freezer? I
know you have to use cable that is rated for 13A (1.5 mm^2 wire rather
than 1 mm^2) and conventional extension cables must be unrolled to
avoid inductive heating. But providing you use a cable of the correct

[]
I don't _think_ it's _inductive_ heating they're that concerned about -
just air cooling, or rather the lack of it when a cable is wound onto a
reel (and tightly, as it often is).

 

[David Looser]

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so many
circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.

Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block, and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe are
three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase. The one
on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

David.

 

[David Looser]

In message <[email protected]>, Mortimer

While we're talking about electrical safety, what is the current (scuse
that unintentional pun) advice on extending the lead of a freezer? I know
you have to use cable that is rated for 13A (1.5 mm^2 wire rather than 1
mm^2) and conventional extension cables must be unrolled to avoid
inductive heating. But providing you use a cable of the correct

[]
I don't _think_ it's _inductive_ heating they're that concerned about -
just air cooling, or rather the lack of it when a cable is wound onto a
reel (and tightly, as it often is).
--

Indeed. It's a common error to assume that the reason that cable drums
should be unwound when in use is something to do with inductance. Possibly
because its a coil, and wire is commonly coiled up to create an inductor.
But in this case it is, as you say, simply a matter of air cooling, or more
to the point the lack of it. The inductance of an air-cored coil of
relatively few turns would be insignificant at 50Hz and in any case the
inductances of the two conductors largely cancel out.

David.

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

Seen in a hotel room in Scotland:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg

<shrug> it's in a cupboard, out of sight. Mind you, whoever did that
obviously took pride in his work. Nice neat job (except the incoming
cable, maybe, it can't be touched anyway)

 

[Mike Tomlinson]

Where's the problem?

It's massive, ugly and looks like it came out of the Queen Mary rather
than a domestic premises. Apart from that, it's great