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Re: Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

J

Jerry

<snip>
:
: You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it so
much more
: difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring?
:

Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden, unless one is
able to move one side of the existing ring to the new socket, as
Pet would know if he had actually done any real world wiring jobs
rather than simply quoting from the "Idiots Guide to the 17th
edition" all the time...
 
J

Jerry

: On 29/01/2012 20:48, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
: > In message <[email protected]>, "Dave Plowman
(News)"
: >> In article <[email protected]>,
: >>> Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp
breaker if
: >>> you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance
lead
: >>> that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have
internal 1amp
: >>> fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one
could
: >>> run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
: >>
: >> Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things
you know
: >> nothing about.
: >>
: > Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so
that they do not
: > have great mechanical strength. Therefore Jerry's statement
that mains leads (in
: > US: line cords) are likely to have a higher rating than
absolutely necessary is
: > valid. Especially if they're of the sort that has a connector
at both ends: if
: > there's a chance that they might be used for an appliance
that draws more, then
: > it is unwise to use low-current wire/cable for them.
: >
: > (I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and
others: I live in UK,
: > but still find ring mains odd.)
:
: Indeed, inherently unsafe some would say:-
:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit#Fault_conditions_are_not_apparent_when_in_use


Indeed, indeed, and one can't help but notice the melee mouthed
solutions some twit has added to that table of horror - and as
for over heating of a radial circuit due to a loose connection,
sorry twit but the same risks apply to rings - more so as they
are more heavily loaded by design.
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK
fused plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly
similar to the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse. The fuse
had a threaded stud on one end and simply screwed into the face of the
plug to form the live pin. I guess it was a different designer's take
on the same design brief that lead to the BS1361 plug. At least if we
had gone with that design it would have been much harder to bypass the
fuse!

One of the alternatives to the now standard 13 amp plug which was around
from about the start of the final ring circuit. Made by D&S and used by
some councils in their estates. They love to be different. ;-)

Used by the BBC too from about the mid '50s for a couple of decades for
the technical supply in studios etc. To prevent accidental use for none
technical equipment.

They were a horrible design. The fuse could work loose, and remain
sticking out of the socket when the plug was removed. They also had a very
poor cable clamp - merely a rubber grommet.
 
J

Jerry

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > >Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things
you know
: > >nothing about.
: > >
: > Conductors rated at only 1A are very thin - sufficiently so
that they do
: > not have great mechanical strength.
:
: Where will you find an appliance sold fitted with 1A flex and a
13 amp
: plug?

Perhaps not 1amp but 3amp is common. But heck were back to
Plowman believing that he can run his 3Kw(+) electric cooker off
such leads as commonly fitted to table lamps...

:
: > Therefore Jerry's statement that
: > mains leads (in US: line cords) are likely to have a higher
rating than
: > absolutely necessary is valid.
:
: All appliances now sold in the UK (and elsewhere in Europe) are
capable of
: blowing a 13 amp fuse in event of a fault on the line chord.

Assuming that the BS1363 plug is actually fitted with a fuse and
not a twist of wire, a lump of metal bar or the shank of a screw
or bolt... As I keep saying, and Plowman keeps refusing to
address, the sort of bodge (by a end-user who might not
understand the risks), that is not possible -or at least a dammed
sight more difficult to do- with radial circuits were the lead is
protected at the panel rather than plug.

:
: > Especially if they're of the sort that
: > has a connector at both ends: if there's a chance that they
might be
: > used for an appliance that draws more, then it is unwise to
use
: > low-current wire/cable for them.
:
: Same with extensions etc sold in the UK.
:
: > (I am not on either side in the argument between Jerry and
others: I
: > live in UK, but still find ring mains odd.)
:
: I can understand this, as practice is what matters. Diversity
loading.
: Not some theoretical maybe as Jerry insist on bringing up -
even although
: it has been explained to him time and time again.

Err, what frecking cheek, Plowman is the one who keeps quoting
the theory, living in that perfect world were idiots are banned.
As for "Diversity" that in it's self is a bodge, it actually
acknowledges that a ring can be overloaded and thus one has to
guess to circuit loading the real world might bring and then if
needs be increase the number of ring circuits.

:
: Final ring circuits are for domestic premises only. For
workshops or
: offices where you have known fixed loads you'd stick to
radials. As you'd

Wrong, ring circuits are acceptable in offices and workshops but
the regs limit the total number of outlets on each ring.

: do for fixed heating in a domestic scenario.
:

Not just for heating, the 17th edition [1] has likely increased
the use of radials being used for freezers, fridges and other
circuits/loads were it is unwise to allow unmonitored
disconnections due to the RCD being tripped due to faults
elsewhere or even 'non faults'... But then, unlike Plowman, I
have always been in favour of supplying such appliances via
dedicated radials, ho-hum, could the worm be turning, could
people like Plowman be eating their own archived words come the
18th edition?!

[1] for those outside the UK, that refers to the current UK
wiring regs
 
J

Jerry

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > The great advantage of radial circuits is that idiots find it
a
: > little more difficult to bridge out the breaker in the panel,
: > unlike the silly fuse fitted in BS1363 plugs (which for some
: > silly reason is the same shape and diameter as many screws,
bolts
: > and any other round bar)
:
: Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw more
than 13
: amps from a socket anyway?

I'm saying that is it possible, not that someone wants to do so,
but then you seem more interested in the troll rather than
actually defending your beloved ring circuits...

:
: Oh yes - I remember. You used to work in a garage and probably
did just
: that since because it didn't have the correct wiring installed.

I seem to remember that you used to make TV programmes...

: Not everyone is as stupid as you Jerry.
:

You really are a stupid troll, understanding the risks is not the
same as practicing such risks, by your logic all child protection
officers are child abusers!
 
J

Jerry

<snip>
: [because I have never seen such faults]
: I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or
bits of metal
: rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much
easier to
: nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for
bits of metal
: that will fit!
:

As others have pointed out in this thread, not just bits of bolts
or screws, simple (and readily available) kitchen foil, or bits
of copper wire.

By your rational, because you (personally, as likely as not) have
never known anyone be killed by electrocution there can't be any
risk of electrocution?
 
J

Jerry

<snip>
: Indeed I was. My comments were in the context of Jerry's
assertion that
: screws, bolts, metal rod etc. are commonly found instead of
fuses in BS1361

Did I say commonly found, perhaps you would care to point out
were I said so, IIRC I said it is possible. Going on to say that
it is far more difficult for a like minded person to bridge out a
breaker at the panel.
 
J

Jerry

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > For the last 20 years I have PAT tested every mains
electrical item
: > submitted to a charity auction that is held twice a year in
the village
: > where I live. In that time I met a fair few horrors: flexes
so damaged
: > that the bare live wire shows through, a standard lamp (with
a brass
: > fitting) wired up with two-core bell-wire, flexes extended
using a bit
: > of choc-block wrapped in insulating tape, broken plugs,
mis-wired
: > plugs, plugs with the cord-grip either missing or incorrectly
used etc.
: > But I've only ever had one example of a plug with anything
other than a
: > BS1362 fuse in it, and that had a few turns of 5A fuse-wire
wrapped
: > round the prongs of the fuse-holder. So I don't buy this idea
that
: > people are putting screws, bolts or bits of metal rod into
plugs in any
: > significant numbers at all. Its *so* much easier to nick a
fuse from
: > another appliance than to start looking for bits of metal
that will fit!
:
: Indeed. As I said, how many homes will have a plug in appliance
that draws
: more than 13 amps so needs the fuse shorted out?

Nothing what so ever to do with an appliance needing more than
13amps, that is something you introduced in an attempt to troll,
it's everything to do with the appliance fuse blowing at 5pm on a
Sunday and there being no replacement - husband is being screamed
at by SWMBO because she wants to get the washing, hovering or
what ever done so hubby goes off in search of something - of
course those with common sense will rob Peter to pay Paul.

If such problems didn't occur why the need for 17th edition or
PAT testing (or at least certain elements)?... But hang on, as
the Champaign socialist Dave is, he probably think such regs are
in place as some form of job creation exercise, but then wasn't
that part of the thinking by "Two Jags" when he headed up the
introduction of the needless Part P to the UK building regs?...
 
J

Jerry

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > : 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not
suitable
: > for final
: > : ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
: > fundamentals
: > : instead of making a fool of yourself.
: > :
:
: > Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is
breaking
: > the regs!
:
: You obviously haven't read them. And certainly don't understand
the basics.
:

So you keep saying Pet, so do tell us all the diffeance between a
BS1363 socket outlet and a, err, BS 1363 socket outlet?

But in reality it is you who is the one that doesn't seem to
understand the regs, you are the one who is obviously getting
mixed up between a permitted socket outlet on a radial circuit
that doesn't need to have 'additional protection' (RCDs) and
those sockets installed on a ring circuit that should have
'additional protection' (RCDs), apart from the protection at the
panel the hardware is the same (bar some required labelling that
can be added upon installation).
 
M

Mike Tomlinson

David Looser said:
BTW did anyone here ever come across the alternative design for a UK fused
plug? I only met one once, it had round pins and looked fairly similar to
the old 15A plug, but the live pin *was* the fuse.

'Waco' or 'Wago' plug, I think. The problem was that the live pin-cum-
fuse tended to unscrew from the plug body and stay in the socket when
the plug was pulled. Not exactly safe...
 
J

Jerry

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > You still can run more that three 3Kw electric fires off each
: > ring circuit, thus how many of these sockets are for power
and
: > how many are basically going to be over spec floor/table
lighting
: > points[1]?
:
: All you have in your place is electric fires and table lamps?
Explains it
: all.
:

Only an idiot or a troll would take what I said in such a way,
anyone with a brain cell would have understood that I was
commenting on total loading of each ring circuit (of course you
needed to cut the context to make your trolling work).

Anyway, even if one does take what I said literally, it would be
very common should a central heating fault occur for just about
any family household to wish to use such a number and rating of
electric fire, especially in the sort of weather the UK had last
winter and with is the norm in Canada and the northern states of
the US. Easy enough to do with radial circuits, a pain (if not
impossible) to do so with ring circuits if the diversification
calculations have not taken such a need into account with the
ring circuit(s) were being installed.

But then perhaps it is Plowman who lives in the one room hovel,
and thus would never (ever) have any need for more than one
electric fire...
 
T

tony sayer

Dave said:
Can't be arsed to read the regs of a forgien country, we have enough
of our own. You are over there and presumably know them so how many
breakers would be required for 38 double sockets in the US?

Anyone here ever known of a problem or fire with a UK ring main other
then stupid people doing really stupid things like they could do on ANY
system?..

I've never come across one ever in the last 50 odd years...
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

The UK '13amp' plug top accepts fuses rated to suit the appliance. 13
amps is the maximum.

Strictly speaking the fuse is only to protect the flex. If the appliance
itself needs to be protected it will have its own fuse or thermal circuit
breaker, etc. Ie the same as if fed from an unfused plug as in most
countries.

You may have noticed that flex sizes have become more uniform recently -
all are now capable of blowing a 13 amps fuse in the plug regardless in
event of a short. As it seems using the correct fuse in a plug is beyond
most.
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

Jerry said:
: In article <[email protected]>,
: > Yes pet, a 15amp breaker has the same rating as 30amp breaker
if
: > you say so... One is far more likely to have an appliance
lead
: > that is rated at 15A, even for appliances that have internal
1amp
: > fuses, rather than such an appliance having a lead that one
could
: > run a domestic -four ring, grill and oven- cooker off...
:
: Thanks for confirming we can add flex ratings to the things you
know
: nothing about.
:
Yes of course pet! Plowman, you really should stop talking about
your own failing all the time, if you really do think that you
can run a 3Kw(+) electric cooker off a 200w lighting cable...

Isn't that what you do, with a nail for the fuse?
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

: You are allowed to add spurs within the regs, but why is it so
much more
: difficult to simply add a socket properly to the ring?
:
Because it adds an extra mechanical joint to the that is not
necessary to the circuit, more than likely hidden

Only in your twisted mind.
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

Jerry said:
<snip>
: [because I have never seen such faults]
: I don't buy this idea that people are putting screws, bolts or
bits of metal
: rod into plugs in any significant numbers at all. Its *so* much
easier to
: nick a fuse from another appliance than to start looking for
bits of metal
: that will fit!
:
As others have pointed out in this thread, not just bits of bolts
or screws, simple (and readily available) kitchen foil, or bits
of copper wire.
By your rational, because you (personally, as likely as not) have
never known anyone be killed by electrocution there can't be any
risk of electrocution?

Well, you still appear to be here despite using all these weird and
wonderful things instead of fuses?
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

: Wonder how you know all this? Just who ever wants to draw more
than 13
: amps from a socket anyway?
I'm saying that is it possible, not that someone wants to do so,
but then you seem more interested in the troll rather than
actually defending your beloved ring circuits...

It's a genuine question. What is it likely someone possesses which draws
more than 13 amps and comes with a 13 amp plug - necessitating replacing
the 13 amp fuse with a nail?
Perhaps the obvious one would be an extension lead with multiple socket
outlets. But then that can be overloaded with your favourite radials too.
:
: Oh yes - I remember. You used to work in a garage and probably
did just
: that since because it didn't have the correct wiring installed.
I seem to remember that you used to make TV programmes...

I'm retired. Why are you not working?
: Not everyone is as stupid as you Jerry.
:
You really are a stupid troll, understanding the risks is not the
same as practicing such risks, by your logic all child protection
officers are child abusers!

You just have a bee in your bonnet which simply isn't born out by
statistics after some 60 years of final ring circuits. It is an extremely
safe, versatile and economic design. Far better than the alternatives.
When used where it is designed for.
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

Nothing what so ever to do with an appliance needing more than
13amps, that is something you introduced in an attempt to troll,
it's everything to do with the appliance fuse blowing at 5pm on a
Sunday and there being no replacement - husband is being screamed
at by SWMBO because she wants to get the washing, hovering or
what ever done so hubby goes off in search of something - of
course those with common sense will rob Peter to pay Paul.

Most home in the UK will have many many devices fitted with 13 amp plugs,
and many of those also with 13 amp fuses.

It would take a true idiot to spend time cutting a nail or whatever to fit
rather than taking the fuse from one of those other devices.
 
D

Dave Plowman (News)

Jerry said:
: In article <[email protected]>,
: > : 'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not
suitable
: > for final
: > : ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some
: > fundamentals
: > : instead of making a fool of yourself.
: > :
:
: > Hmm, if correct then every spur off a ring circuit is
breaking
: > the regs!
:
: You obviously haven't read them. And certainly don't understand
the basics.
:
So you keep saying Pet, so do tell us all the diffeance between a
BS1363 socket outlet and a, err, BS 1363 socket outlet?

I was referring to the difference between a radial circuit and a spur.
Which obviously escapes you.

You can have unlimited sockets on a spur from a ring - provided that spur
is protected by an FCU.
 
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