Re: Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[David Looser]

The other issue is that continental electricians don't seem to have any
concept of live and neutral. BS4343 outlets are very clearly marked L and
N on both plug or socket but my experience (caravanning, mainly in France)
is that more are reverse wired than correctly wired. Perhaps it is because
(from what I have seen) most Euro MCB's are dual pole and will break both
both conductors under fault conditions (remember most Euro wiring is
radial)

Not sure I see the relevance of radial circuits to two-pole MCBs. Fusing in
the UK used to be two-pole many years ago, but neutral fusing was dropped
because it was possible for the neutral fuse only to fail, leaving the
circuit inoperative yet still live. Whilst obviously with MCBs it would be
possible to return to two-pole isolation I'm not sure that I see the
benefit. Nor, presumably, do the committee who write BS7671.

so polarity at the point of delivery is largely academic.

I disagree. In my view polarity at the point of delivery can be important
(depending on appliance) regardless of the number of poles in the MCB.

I purchased a 10A two-pole MCB (LeGrand) for my caravan in a French DIY
shed for less than a 6A single pole from a UK wholesaler.

Single-pole MCBs to BS7671 (any current rating) cost around £2-£3, how much
less than that was this LeGrand 2-pole job?

Is there any wonder we have to take more steps in our

protection chain than they do?

What do mean by "more steps" and what has that to do with the price of MCBs?

David.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Because it can get accidentally switched off due to stuff being
moved or pushed to the back of the cupboard!

You keep your fridge in a cupboard?

Stick some gaffer tape over the switch.

 

[Don Pearce]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you implying that it is no
longer legal in the UK to supply equipment with twin flex (and matching
2-pole connector)?

Nothing to do with legality, just practicability. If you want to sell
goods in the UK market, it is a pretty good idea to supply them with a
UK mains plug. Adaptors are for when you travel, not at home. One
current exception is mains-powered shavers (only a few left now), that
use a two-pin plug specifically designed for an isolated bathroom
connector.

A friend of mine has recently built a new house and her wiring has in
one room - quite legally - an old-fashioned 5-amp round pin socket.

d

 

[André Coutanche]

A friend of mine has recently built a new house and her wiring has in
one room - quite legally - an old-fashioned 5-amp round pin socket.

The Landmark Trust still use these extensively, including in newly restored
properties. They're on the lighting circuit, I was told.

André Coutanche

 

[Jerry]

"Roderick Stewart" <[email protected]>
wrote in message
: In article
<[email protected]>, Terry
Casey
: wrote:
: > > > On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started
supplying their
: > > > fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?
: > >
: > > Because if they supplied them with anything else in the UK,
you'd need to
: > > buy an adaptor as well.
: > >
: >
: > I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you implying that it
is no
: > longer legal in the UK to supply equipment with twin flex
(and matching
: > 2-pole connector)?
:
: I wasn't implying anything at all about what's legal, because I
don't know, but
: I do know that if you want to plug an electrical appliance into
a wall socket
: in the UK, it needs to have a 3 pin UK plug on it. Therefore if
they put any
: other kind of plug on it, you'd have to use an adaptor.
:

Except Terry was talking about the *female* plug on the end of
the power lead that is inserted into the PSU... The plug that is
inserted into the wall socket, AIUI, those have and will always
be local to the official area of sale - otherwise, in your own
words, an adapter would be required. Duh! :~)

 

[Jerry]

: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 19:51:51 -0000, Terry Casey
:
<snip>
:
: Nothing to do with legality, just practicability. If you want
to sell
: goods in the UK market, it is a pretty good idea to supply them
with a
: UK mains plug. Adaptors are for when you travel, not at home.
One
: current exception is mains-powered shavers (only a few left
now), that
: use a two-pin plug specifically designed for an isolated
bathroom
: connector.

Not sure what Terry means by "Mains Powered" (only 240v ?), there
seems to be quite a few "mains powered" razors still being sold,
many do have rechargeable batteries but still come with a two pin
power lead for use in UK isolated shaver outlets to allow for
recharging. In fact IIRC MK actually make, for the *UK market*
two pin shaver outlets /without/ a isolating transformer for
fitting into non-hazardous areas such as bedrooms and dressing
rooms.

:
: A friend of mine has recently built a new house and her wiring
has in
: one room - quite legally - an old-fashioned 5-amp round pin
socket.
:

....and very useful they are too, allowing for remote operation of
non fixed lighting.
Their 15A round pin cousins are still legal too, of course they
have to be installed on radial circuits, one such use is on
emersion heaters were the control switch is remote from the water
tanks location, thus enabling a definite DP isolation to be
achieved when servicing/repair is required.

 

[Jerry]

message : On Tue, 3 Jan 2012 18:42:22 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John)
:
: >>I agree, the BS1363 plug is not my favourite design. Some
years ago there
: >
: > It is far too big for most of the devices currently on it,
yes - and
: > also, the three ratings for the matching fuse (BS1362) widely
available
: > are far too high: 3, 5, and 13A. (Even 1A - which you _can_
get in
: > BS1362, but you don't half have to hunt for it
:
: Huh? RS have 1,2,3,5,7,10,13 readily available. This is not
what
: I'd call "half having to hunt for".

Except that if you said "RS" to most of the UK's population they
would either look back blankly or think of a Ford motor car that
was popular in the 1970s and '80s. Again Mr Ratcliffe shows that
he lives only in a bubble of techo-babble speak...

:
: > - is too high for most
: > electronic appliances.) IMO, the fact that the plugs are
fused actually
: > gives a _false_ sense of security, _because_ the fuse ratings
are so
: > high; all that fuse can effectively protect is the mains lead
(or power
: > cord, as it's called in US) itself.
:
: The fuse is only *designed* to protect the mains lead, not the
device to
: which the lead is connected. That's what the device's internal
fuse is for.

Assuming it has one, most domestic appliances don't. Again Mr
Ratcliffe shows that he lives only in a bubble of techo-babble
speak...

 

[Jerry]

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > Because it can get accidentally switched off due to stuff
being
: > moved or pushed to the back of the cupboard!
:
: You keep your fridge in a cupboard?

Err, is that away Mr Plowman ===>

But heck, you have kitchen cupboards that you don't put anything
in?!

:
: Stick some gaffer tape over the switch.
:

Oh right, so your solution is a bodge on a bodge, rather than
doing the job right first time?

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

A friend of mine has recently built a new house and her wiring has in
one room - quite legally - an old-fashioned 5-amp round pin socket.

All the 'old' round 3 pin sockets still comply to UK regs - provided they
are on a suitable circuit. A common use is for floor or table lamps
switched from the wall, etc. If on a dimmer, plugging the hoover into that
wouldn't be a good idea...
Some of the modern versions available are shuttered.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

: You keep your fridge in a cupboard?

Err, news:alt.troll is that away Mr Plowman ===>

Not surprised you have that to hand.

But heck, you have kitchen cupboards that you don't put anything
in?!

I don't put 'anything' in the fridge housing, no. Or the one for the
washing machine etc either. I'd say it's rather rare for anyone to keep a
fridge in an actual cupboard these days. Putting something used for
storage inside something else used for storage strikes me as wasting
space. But then it does sound like you live somewhere with something not
representative of most kitchens.

:
: Stick some gaffer tape over the switch.
:

Oh right, so your solution is a bodge on a bodge, rather than
doing the job right first time?

FFS. If it really concerned me I'd not be whinging about it here - I'd
have changed it years ago.

 

[Jerry]

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > : You keep your fridge in a cupboard?
:
: > Err, is that away Mr Plowman ===>
:
: Not surprised you have that to hand.

Well when the suit fits...

:
: > But heck, you have kitchen cupboards that you don't put
anything
: > in?!
:
: I don't put 'anything' in the fridge housing, no. Or the one
for the
: washing machine etc either. I'd say it's rather rare for anyone
to keep a
: fridge in an actual cupboard these days. Putting something used
for
<snip further trolling>

FFS, what pills are you on these days Plowman?! The cupboard
*next* to a free standing or otherwise fridge, were electricians
(and you, IIRC) often suggest the socket for the fridge supply is
placed -along with a bloody great hole on the side of said
cupboard for the plug to pass through- rather than the more
professional approach of an accessible and visible
'neon-indicated' switched-fuse plate and remote fixed flex outlet
or (if disconnection of the appliance needs to be tools free) a
15A round pin socket outlet.

 

[David Looser]

All the 'old' round 3 pin sockets still comply to UK regs - provided they
are on a suitable circuit. A common use is for floor or table lamps
switched from the wall, etc. If on a dimmer, plugging the hoover into that
wouldn't be a good idea...
Some of the modern versions available are shuttered.

And of course the 15A version is the de-facto standard for theatrical stage
lighting.

David.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

FFS, what pills are you on these days Plowman?! The cupboard
*next* to a free standing or otherwise fridge, were electricians
(and you, IIRC) often suggest the socket for the fridge supply is
placed -along with a bloody great hole on the side of said
cupboard for the plug to pass through- rather than the more
professional approach of an accessible and visible
'neon-indicated' switched-fuse plate and remote fixed flex outlet
or (if disconnection of the appliance needs to be tools free) a
15A round pin socket outlet.

Right. You need a neon to tell you the fridge is on? And a handy switch to
switch it off? Have you ever sought treatment?

 

[Jerry]

<yet more trolling snipped>

 

[Terry Casey]

: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 19:51:51 -0000, Terry Casey
:
<snip>
:
: Nothing to do with legality, just practicability. If you want
to sell
: goods in the UK market, it is a pretty good idea to supply them
with a
: UK mains plug. Adaptors are for when you travel, not at home.
One
: current exception is mains-powered shavers (only a few left
now), that
: use a two-pin plug specifically designed for an isolated
bathroom
: connector.

Not sure what Terry means by "Mains Powered" (only 240v ?),

Err ...

That was Don, I think you'll find ...

 

[Jerry]

: In article <[email protected]>,
: [email protected] says...
: >
<snip>
: >
: > Not sure what Terry means by "Mains Powered" (only 240v ?),
:
: Err ...
:
: That was Don, I think you'll find ...

So it was, sorry! :~(

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

No, my beef is not with 220/240 volt distribution-I prefer it. It's
the goofy room wiring in loops and the goofy sockets the Brits use I
think are ridiculous.

You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house distribution
systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many times worse than
here.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

n Britain one may readily obtain a "site transformer" which will
give what is advertised as 110 volt balanced power. I haven't been
there in 20+ years, can any Brits tell me if that's really true or if
120, or more, or less, is actually common? They are used for electric
drills and whatnot outdoors. Vintage US gear works fine at 110, but
mostly not current stuff.

110 volt via an isolating transformer is used on building sites etc for
all power tools. Purely for safety reasons.

 

[Jerry]

: In article
:
: > No, my beef is not with 220/240 volt distribution-I prefer
it. It's
: > the goofy room wiring in loops and the goofy sockets the
Brits use I
: > think are ridiculous.
:
: You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
distribution
: systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many times
worse than
: here.
:

But that is not caused but the use of radial circuits (opposed to
a ring circuit), it's the poor hardware (fittings and conductor)
used that causes the problem. If radial circuits were a fire
hazard, never mind actually being the cause of fires, then just
about every film/TV studio, theatre and other entertainment
venues that have a fixed lighting rig would either have burnt
down or been shut down on H&S grounds!

There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two down
sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the breaker
panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
still, to this day, permitted.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of incompetent
DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.

One of the major reasons is those 'wire nuts' oh so common, and banned
over here many many years ago.