Re: Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[Jerry]

<snip>
: I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A
plug has 3
: thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided
by the pins,
: so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
weight of the
: flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
installation I saw
: large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
circuit breaker
: of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
:

But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
(especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for
the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
practises?

Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make
something unsafe. As long as the rating of the socket or
conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note
that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
conductor used in these Italian instillations...

 

[Terry Casey]

Indeed, French TV standards were all based on a 50Hz field rate. (the French
had a 441-line transmitter operating from the Eiffel Tower before the war,
famously taken over by the Germans and operated by them for the duration.
After the war they went one better than everybody else and adopted an
819-line standard. But colour transmissions (SECAM of course) were on
625-lines. The 819 line standard was finally abandoned in the 1980s ).

In the 1950s French mains, at least in some parts of the country, was still
at 110V or thereabouts, but at 50Hz. I'm not sure when they changed to 220V
but certainly by the 1980s French mains was standardised on 220V/50Hz.

In Italy, in 1964, a friend found that his electric razor wouldn't work,
so he switched it to 110V. Problem solved!

When he finished shaving, he complained his razor seemed to be getting
unusually hot. I looked up at the nearest light bulb and noted that it
said 130V!

 

[Jerry]

: In article <[email protected]>,
: > All I know is that after returning to the US from a year's
stay in
: > Germany, I was a little bit afraid every time I plugged
anything in,
: > due to the ease with which one's fingers slide down the plug
and touch
: > the contacts.
:
: That's impossible as the pins have insulation down most of
their length -
: only the end part makes contact. And in any case most UK socket
outlets
: have switches. Decent plugs have a skirt which would prevent
your fingers
: slipping towards the pins anyway - only cheap ones not.
:

Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
electrical installations, it *is* quite possible that he
experienced all he suggests, it has only been since the
late/early '80s that pins have been shrouded, like-wise plugs
having finger stops whilst un-switched sockets are actually very
common than Mr Plowman suggests, especially in 'to a price' built
housing, such as local authority, starter and MOD stock or were
the idea is to discourage disconnection of the appliances, such
as fridges, freezers or VCRs etc.

So far from being "impossible", even more so considering the
number of older and thus 'unprotected' plugs that must still be
in existence and use.

 

[Terry Casey]

Indeed. Britain is somewhat different there anyway - the trans-channel
interconnectors are actually at DC
Correct.

[I've also been told that, despite the public being told it is
bidirectional because peak demand occurs at different times as we take
our main meals at different times, in practice it has never operated in
the supply-power-from-Britain-to-France direction, other than for test
purposes. Whether this is true I don't know.]

Un true. In late November when there was a great big high pressure
over europe and there for naff all wind both the continental
interconnects were maxed out exporting power during the day. We just
burnt a bit more coal to provide that power. Conversly the last few
days has seen us importing from the continent, cheap, french nuke
power...

Yes. A consequence of Merkel's knee-jerk reaction to the Japanese
tsunami by shutting down the nuclear plant and getting caught with her
knickers down when the lack of wind stopped all the windmills. I think
it was the first time that the UK had been a net exporter of
electricity.

Take a look here:

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Look at the graph for November (bottom right).

I wonder how Germany will fare if we get a repeat performance but with
much lower temperatures all over Europe so that all other countries need
all of their energy to supply their own needs?

 

[JW]

Osmium would be a better choice for a turntable flywheel.

How about carving a flywheel from a black hole?
(Getting it rotating may be problematic, though...)

 

[Jerry]

:
<snip>
:
: Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
: electrical installations, it *is* quite possible that he
: experienced all he suggests, it has only been since the
: late/early '80s that pins have been shrouded, like-wise plugs

Oops, late '70s/early 80s...

 

[Jerry]

: On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 02:41:21 +0000 (UTC), J G Miller
<miller@yoyRG>
: wrote:
:
<snip>
: >
: >Scotland could be linked to Iceland!
:
: Getting ready for independance don't you know.
:

That figures, two economic basket cases...

 

[Terry Casey]

Your friend sounds confused. The 240/50 was standardised a long time
before 1970, and the various plugs and bulbs had been running on 240/50
for some decades by then.

I remember a major upgrade taking place in West Ham to upgrade the
distribution network from 215V AC to the standard 240V while I was at
school there in the late 50s.

Nearby Ilford still had 200V DC, a hangover from when Ilford town
council generated 600V DC for its tramways and obviously found it
convenient to stick to DC for domestic supplies.

When it was converted to 240V AC I do not know but there was no evidence
of anything remotely DC connected when I moved there in the early 70s.

 

[David Looser]

: >
: > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
UK's
: > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other types
of
: > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst being
: > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK parents
to
: > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
: >
:
: And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
might have hoped
: to acquire!
:

Care to explain why you think that, or are you more interested in
gratuitous effect?
--

You have demonstrated to those who were not already aware of it that you
have precisely zero knowledge or experience of bringing up children, and
that you are not put of by your total lack of knowledge of a subject in
giving us the "benefit" of your uninformed opinion of it.

David.

 

[Terry Casey]

I doubt that design will ever fly ...

I see the thinplug.com is now in the shops, actually, I wish it wasn't
retractable ...

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/retra...le-universal-notebook-cable-11083932-pdt.html

A bit late in the day, perhaps, with so many laptops now using earthed
'clover leaf' connectors?

I must admit I much prefer the figure-of-eight connector. By the time
you take the much smaller cross section of the cable into consideration,
it makes the whole thing much more compact.

Also, I have an even more compact cable fitted with a 2-pin Euro plug
for continental excursions ...

 

[Terry Casey]

Go to:-
http://www.slimplug.com/

And you can navigate to it from there, but the direct link fails. Odd...

Funny that it has a metal earth pin but is only available with a figure-
of-eight connector/cable - see my comments about this up-thread.

I note that a cloverleaf adaptor is mentioned on the site but no details
are available, including how to buy it!

Can a 2-pin to 3-pin adaptor be legal?

On the other hand, why have laptop manufacturers started supplying their
fully isolated PSUs with 3-pin connectors?

Incidentally, since the move from 2 to 3-pin laptop PSUs, has anybody
else noticed that the pound shops seem to be awash with figure-of-eight
mains leads these days ...?

 

[Terry Casey]

In message <[email protected]>, John Williamson

That's another thing: I assume anything is until told otherwise. Most
(all I think) equipment that came with Schuko plugs had two-pole mains
switches; the penny-pinching of only a single pole always seemed
dangerous to me.

That's because the Shuko plug is also non polarised, whereas the French
variant is.

 

[David Looser]

Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
electrical installations

Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I know is that
after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
(My emphasis).

David.

 

[Jerry]

: : >
: > : > : >
: > : > Not very often, just as kids in areas that do not use the
: > UK's
: > : > BS1363 plug/socket don't tend to poke things into other
types
: > of
: > : > sockets, why because they are *taught* not to whilst
being
: > : > supervised, of course that is to hard for average UK
parents
: > to
: > : > manage so the state has to hold their hands so to speak!
: > : >
: > :
: > : And with that paragraph you have blown any credibility you
: > might have hoped
: > : to acquire!
: > :
: >
: > Care to explain why you think that, or are you more
interested in
: > gratuitous effect?
:
: You have demonstrated to those who were not already aware of it
that you
: have precisely zero knowledge or experience of bringing up
children, and
: that you are not put of by your total lack of knowledge of a
subject in
: giving us the "benefit" of your uninformed opinion of it.
:

Who says, you? Well yes I don't have any experience of bringing
up YOUR kids!

As I said, you seem more interested in gratuitous effect that
reasoned debate,I must have hit a raw nerve with your own
parenting skills Mr Looser...

 

[David Looser]

<snip>
: I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The 10A
plug has 3
: thin pins with no support for the plug other than that provided
by the pins,
: so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
weight of the
: flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
installation I saw
: large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
circuit breaker
: of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
:

But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK bridging
out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to string a
large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that has
increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
(especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and kitchens).

Well now, for starters there is poor retention in the socket for the Italian
plug, something for which the BS1363 design is particularly good. Also the
Italian plug is reversable, so its live/neutral polarity is a matter of
luck. Then the pins of the Italian plug are not sleeved, whilst all new
BS1363 plugs have been for for many years now.

I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad thing just
because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat it. The
overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than 13A, I don't
accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is somehow
cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.

As for your allegation that the introduction of Part P results in an
increase in the incidence of strings of trailing sockets wired with 3A cable
in hazardous areas, this seems to be another example of your notion that
safety rules are a bad thing because some idiot somewhere will ignore them.

Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference for
the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
practises?

I said that I was unimpressed with Italian electrical safety, which is true.
I made no claims about statistics. What I do know is that an Italian
installation would fail a UK electrical safety check.

Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense) make
something unsafe.

A comment that seems at odds with your repeated assertions that BS1363 plugs
are unsafe because some idiot somewhere might link-out the fuse!

As long as the rating of the socket or
conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I note
that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
conductor used in these Italian instillations...
--

I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what it was. But I
do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected to those
plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to handle up to
25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a flex of that
cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or less. OK, I
accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now that new
appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a less than
perfect safety system is better than no system at all.

David.

 

[Jerry]

: >
: > Arny Krueger doesn't give a date for his experiences of UK
: > electrical installations
:
: Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I
know is that
: after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
: (My emphasis).
:

Actually re-reading Arny's original comment (and the context),
it's about as clear as mud as to which electrical system he was
referring to! Besides I was replying to Mr Plowman's comments
(and inaccuracies) about the UK so there, so less of the "you"
please. :~P

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

So far from being "impossible", even more so considering the
number of older and thus 'unprotected' plugs that must still be
in existence and use.

Yes pet. I forgot you live in a hovel.

 

[David Looser]

:

Who says, you? Well yes I don't have any experience of bringing
up YOUR kids!

As I said, you seem more interested in gratuitous effect that
reasoned debate,I must have hit a raw nerve with your own
parenting skills Mr Looser...

You really are a contemptible piece of work aren't you Jerry? Even if I
wasn't already aware of your ignorance about children from coming across you
in other forums, your earlier statement would be enough to tell me that you
have no knowledge of the subject. For your information, Jerry, its very
small children, those too young to understand the concept of danger or to be
taught not to poke things into sockets, yet who are intensely curious and
mobile who are in danger from unshuttered sockets.

David.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Neither Dave P nor you noticed that Arny's post said "All I know is that
after returning to the *US* from a year's stay in Germany".
(My emphasis).

That'll teach me to post after midnight. ;-) Sorry to Arny.

 

[Jerry]

: : >
: > : >
: > <snip>
: > : I was singularly unimpressed with Italian mains safety. The
10A
: > plug has 3
: > : thin pins with no support for the plug other than that
provided
: > by the pins,
: > : so the plugs tend to hang half-out of the socket due to the
: > weight of the
: > : flex. No shutters, no plug-top fuses and in the (modern)
: > installation I saw
: > : large numbers of sockets were all wired to a single fuse or
: > circuit breaker
: > : of significantly higher rating that of the plug & socket.
: > :
: >
: > But how is that any different to some idiot in the UK
bridging
: > out the fuse in a BS1363 plug and then using 3A cable to
string a
: > large number of trailing sockets together, a prospect that
has
: > increased since the introduction of "Part P" in the UK
: > (especially in hazardous areas such as wet areas and
kitchens).
:
: Well now, for starters there is poor retention in the socket
for the Italian
: plug, something for which the BS1363 design is particularly
good.

On the slip side, the BS 1363 design can be very difficult to
insert/remove, the force needed can be quite high (especially for
the elderly or those with muscular problems), thus a risk of the
terminals making poor contact, also because (as you say) there is
less risk of a BS1363 plug being pulled out accidentally two
other risks are present, should the lead become stranded the lead
is damaged/parts company with the internal connections in either
plug or appliance and more importantly should electrocution occur
it is a dammed sight harder to purposely pull the appliance lead
out of the socket from a distance.

Also the
: Italian plug is reversable, so its live/neutral polarity is a
matter of
: luck.

Not relevant on anything that doesn't have a single pole switch,
and surely a BS1363 plug with a figure 8 style lead is as bad,
more so because the user might be unaware of the risk of pole
reversibility? Even then, nothing to stop someone reversing the
polarity in the plug due to transposing the +/- cables. Or, and
quite possible since the EU wide harmonisation of wiring colours,
transposing the conductors at the socket.

Then the pins of the Italian plug are not sleeved, whilst all new
: BS1363 plugs have been for for many years now.

Funny that, I have such an older un-sleeved plug sitting on my
desk ATM, as I said elsewhere, there must be many millions of
such plugs still in existence and otherwise serviceable... It's
only been comparatively recently that people have been discarding
appliances still with the plug attached, the most common reason
being that it has a moulded on plug, but then these dire
contraptions have caused their own safety problems to those who
have been lulled into this fails sense of electrical safety.

:
: I don't follow your logic that a safety device becomes a bad
thing just
: because some idiot somewhere will go out of his way to defeat
it. The
: overwhelming majority of BS1363 plugs are fused no higher than
13A, I don't
: accept that the improved safety of the sensible majority is
somehow
: cancelled out by the actions of the occasional idiot.

If an idiot can defeat the safety device that has been place
there so that idiots are safer then the safety measure has by
definition failed! But heck, if you're right then, judging by the
majority of countries (even just within the EU), the UK has been
totally OTT with its own electrical safety. You have made my
point for me!...

:
: As for your allegation that the introduction of Part P results
in an
: increase in the incidence of strings of trailing sockets wired
with 3A cable
: in hazardous areas, this seems to be another example of your
notion that
: safety rules are a bad thing because some idiot somewhere will
ignore them.

Actually I had not given Part P much thought before it was
imminent and could see the intent behind it, only then, whilst in
conversation with a couple of registered electricians (thus would
get Part P registration) that Part P came up and *they* expressed
doubts over the regs effects and the likely hood of the scenario
was put to me - OK so 3A flex might be unlikely but still
possible. Also IIRC the same sorts of doubts,about Part P's
actual effect on hazardous area safety, were expressed on the
uk.d-i-y group.

: >
: > Perhaps you might care to place your comments about Italian
: > electrical safety into some perspective, if it really is as
: > dangerous as you claim, would you like to cite a reference
for
: > the number of electrical fires caused by such instillation
: > practises?
:
: I said that I was unimpressed with Italian electrical safety,
which is true.
: I made no claims about statistics. What I do know is that an
Italian
: installation would fail a UK electrical safety check.

Well yes, to the point of being bleedingly obvious, and a UK
installation would fail a Italian or USA electrical safety check,
different strokes for different folks and all that!

: >
: > Only the ill-informed or idiots (those without common sense)
make
: > something unsafe.
:
: A comment that seems at odds with your repeated assertions that
BS1363 plugs
: are unsafe because some idiot somewhere might link-out the
fuse!

I'm saying *anything* can and will be unsafe if miss used,
attempting to make something 'idiot proof' (which the vast
majority of the UK's domestic electrical regulation, such as
BS1363, attempts to do), does is induce complacency amongst those
most at risk.

:
: > As long as the rating of the socket or
: > conductor is not exceeded then there is no problem surely. I
note
: > that you failed to specify the cross sectional dimension of
: > conductor used in these Italian instillations...
: > --
:
: I did indeed "fail to specify" that, because I don't know what
it was.

So it could have actually been as great or greater than the
underlaying instalation, thus your pouint was what, exactly?

But I
: do know what conductor sizes were used on the flexes connected
to those
: plugs which was frequently 0.5 sqmm. Not adequate, I think, to
handle up to
: 25A of fault current from a defective appliance. In the UK a
flex of that
: cross-section *should* be connected via a plug fused at 3A or
less. OK, I
: accept that many are actually fused at 13A (though less so now
that new
: appliances must have factory-fitted plugs) but I think that a
less than
: perfect safety system is better than no system at all.
:

So, given an identical appliance with a 0.5 sqmm flex/lead/power
cord -call it what you like- lets get what you're saying
straight; so there *is a problem in Italy * because it is
protected by a 25A MCB, but there /is no problem in the UK/ even
though (without any idiots intervention, as set out by myself
above) if a fault occoured it would be protected by a 30A MCB due
to the vagaries of slow-blow BS1362 fuses? Yeah, that's
logical...