Planned Obselescence....A Good Thing?

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote


Your problem.


Wrong again. There's a real problem with Lithium anything
and separate chargers. Thats why you dont see the standard
AA and AAA cells in Lithium anything format either.

Sorry but you are missinformed. Check here
http://www.energizer.com/products/lithium/default.aspx
These are AA and AAA lithium batteries.

 

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

It would **** the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Please explain why.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Not stupid. It IS the bean counters - and for the
pricepoint DICTATED it is impossible to make a
QUALITY product with any kind of consistency.

Utterly mangled all over again. Its actually the engineers that
choose to make things in a way that minimises the cost of
manufacturer, and maximises the reliability, even if that does
produce a product that is difficult or impractical to repair if it fails.

Most obviously with plugpacks which cant be opened without
physically breaking them, and molded power cords etc.

So the customer becomes the QC department.

No they dont. And thats got nothing to do with his stupid claim
about who gets to decide how things are constructed anyway.

Nobody said inexpensive.

Some did just that.

Cheap ain't the same. It is CHEAP OVERPRICED JUNK.

Easy to claim. Much harder to substantiate the claim that its junk.

ipods certainly arent either cheap or junk.

No, it is an EXCELLENT way, because you add more "Gee Whizz"
and "gotta have it" in the next iteration (which comes out JUST
BEFORE the majority of the last version come off warranty).

And most consumers will avoid brands that didnt last long previously.

Its actually an excellent way of getting them
to try the competitor's product instead.

And that claim about JUST BEFORE isnt even possible either.

This way, a large percentage of owners are salivating over the new product,

Few do, only a small percentage at most.

and either throw the cheap one in a corner to buy the new one, or, more often,
just figure when the old one fails it's a good excuse to buy the new one.

But wont be buying the same brand again if it just managed to last for the warranty.

Lots of us want to keep using the simple old unit - and cannot because it fails.

Bugger all modern electronic devices fail anymore.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Sorry but you are missinformed.
Nope.

http://www.energizer.com/products/lithium/default.aspx
These are AA and AAA lithium batteries.

Pity they wont fit in an ipod. And arent practical with electric toothbrushes either.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Please explain why.

It should be obvious. Try counting the cost of all those sockets for
all the ics, let alone what that would do to the size of the device etc.

You couldnt even use surface mount anymore either.

 

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

Because it is impossible ? Novel concept I realise.

Please explain how the manufacturer of a light bulb, fluorescent lamp
or CFL can provide an estimate of the lifetime of the lamp. Don´t say
"They can´t because it´s impossible". Explain exactly why it´s
impossible.

Nice theory. The reality is that that isnt even
possible with most domestic appliances.

It isnt even feasible with stuff as basic as an incandescent light bulb.
A CFL in spades. A moulded power cord or plug pack in spades.


No they dont with domestic appliances.

They dont even do that with mass market hard drives anymore.

Yes they do. The quote the useful lifetime of a hardrive in MTBF hours.
Don´t answer "it´s impossible" if you are not prepared to give a real
explanation. Samsung, Seagate, WD... any decent hard drive manufactures
gives an estimate lifetime of their products. These estimates are
provided in the datasheet of each harddrive.

 

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

Pity they wont fit in an ipod. And arent practical with electric toothbrushes either.

The point is that consumer AA an AAA lithium batteries are available.
That´s the point, not if these batteries can be fitted to an IPOD or a
Thootbrush. You said that Lithium batteries weren´t available in
standard sizes and I proved you that you were wrong. Also, there are
smaller lithium batteries available for watches and calculators. Even
there are *user replaceable lithium batteries* for cellphones and
laptops, which further demonstrates the concept that rechargeable
lithium batteries can, and in fact are produced, in a variety of
formats.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

...and let's not forget those plasma tvs of ' a certain well known
brand who invented the walkman' with the driver chips on the cables to
the screen - horizontal black line of death and you toss a 2000€ tv!
they should hang the designers of that one!

Just sit back and watch the screams when HD is phased into the USA in a
couple of years...and hundreds of millions of televisions go obselete
at once.

FYI....plasma televisions have a dismal repair record.....throwaway
electronics at several thousand dollars a toss.

TMT

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Please explain how the manufacturer of a light bulb, fluorescent
lamp or CFL can provide an estimate of the lifetime of the lamp.

That is trivial to do by running an adequate sized batch of
incandescent light bulbs under appropriate test conditions etc.

Don´t say "They can´t because it´s impossible".
Explain exactly why it´s impossible.

Its up to those who claim that its possible to design a device
to die one year after the warrant expires how that can be done.

Yes they do.

No they dont.

The quote the useful lifetime of a hardrive in MTBF hours.

That is calculated, not measured. Convert that MTBF
to years and you will discover why they cant possibility
have tested them to get those numbers.

Don´t answer "it´s impossible" if you are not prepared to give
a real explanation. Samsung, Seagate, WD... any decent hard
drive manufactures gives an estimate lifetime of their products.
These estimates are provided in the datasheet of each harddrive.

And they are ESTIMATES, not measured results.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Those arent the RECHARGEABLE batterys being discussed.

The point is that consumer AA an AAA lithium batteries are available.

Nope, not the RECHARGEABLE batterys being discussed.

That´s the point, not if these batteries can be fitted to an IPOD or a Thootbrush.

Wrong, see the top of the quoting.

You said that Lithium batteries weren´t available in standard sizes

Yes, and it should have been obvious that what was being discussed was RECHARGEABLE batterys.

and I proved you that you were wrong.

No you didnt.

Also, there are smaller lithium batteries available for watches and calculators.

Those arent RECHARGEABLE either.

Even there are *user replaceable lithium batteries* for cellphones and laptops,

Yes, I said that.

which further demonstrates the concept that rechargeable lithium
batteries can, and in fact are produced, in a variety of formats.

Pity they arent practical with external chargers because of the
real problem with RECHARGEABLE lithium batterys in that format.

There's a reason they go bang if not RECHARGED properly.

 

[Rod Speed]

Just sit back and watch the screams when HD is phased into the USA in a
couple of years...and hundreds of millions of televisions go obselete at once.

No they dont, you just get a set top box.

 

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

..

Pity they arent practical with external chargers because of the
real problem with RECHARGEABLE lithium batterys in that format.

There's a reason they go bang if not RECHARGED properly.

That´s why the manufacturer puts the charging circuit *inside* the
cellphone or the laptop, to avoid charging problems. Also, the IPOD
battery is a lithium rechargeable one, so a lithium battery charging
circuit can be made as small as needed. Put simply: if the manufacturer
*wants* to design a product with batteries that can be replaced or
recharged the manufacturer *can* do it. The technollogy exists, and in
fact it´s in use actually. Even there are different chemistries
available, so if an applicattion works best with a NiMh battery, or a
NiCad one, that battery can be used.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

That´s why the manufacturer puts the charging circuit *inside*
the cellphone or the laptop, to avoid charging problems.

Yes, and why you dont see rechargeable lithium AA and AAA
batterys, because some fool will inevitably put them in an inappropriate
charger and they will go bang very spectacularly indeed.

Also, the IPOD battery is a lithium rechargeable one, so a
lithium battery charging circuit can be made as small as needed.

Yes, but we were discussing why the battery
cant be a STANDARD AA OR AAA FORMAT.

Put simply: if the manufacturer *wants* to design a product with batteries
that can be replaced or recharged the manufacturer *can* do it.

Not with a standard battery format they cant, because that
would inevitably see some put them on inappropriate chargers
that would produce spectacular results when they did that.

The technollogy exists, and in fact it´s in use actually.

No it isnt with STANDARD BATTERY FORMATS.

Even there are different chemistries available, so if an applicattion works
best with a NiMh battery, or a NiCad one, that battery can be used.

Pity about the problem with putting a lithium battery in a charger
thats designed to charge NiMh and NiCad standard format betterys.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote


Your problem.


Wrong again. There's a real problem with Lithium anything
and separate chargers. Thats why you dont see the standard
AA and AAA cells in Lithium anything format either.

Nobody said anything about separate chargers. ANd you DO see lithium
AA and AAA batteries - they are just not rechargable lithium (and in
fact, there ARE rechargeable Lithiums in the AA format.)

There's a reason cellphones dont all use the same standard battery.

Yes, there is. It's called "marketing" and "catch'em while you can"

Nope. Please explain.


It would be anyway even if the case was sealed, just like with cellphones.


Its obviously still possible to replace the battery.

Not if you can't get them, it isn't.

NOT YET.

And by the time they are, the units will be obsolete.

Same with cellphones. There is no evil conspiracy,
its about producing a cost effective product.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy. I said it was building as cheaply
as possible (and often cheaper).
It's the bean-counters running the shop. I've worked for a company
(computer industry) that was quite successful until a harvard MBA type
started "managing" the company. It went from profitable to 1.5 million
dollars a year loss in 18 months. Was gone in 22.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Pity they wont fit in an ipod. And arent practical with electric toothbrushes either.

Fantastic for digital cameras though.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Just lousy design, no evil conspiracy.

Conspiracy of idiocy

It would **** the environment much more to have every
low level component easily unpluggable and replaceable.

Explain that one. I'd love to hear the spin you can put on THIS!!!!!!

 

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

That is trivial to do by running an adequate sized batch of
incandescent light bulbs under appropriate test conditions etc.


Its up to those who claim that its possible to design a device
to die one year after the warrant expires how that can be done.

Well, it can be estimated how long will a power semiconductor run if
you leave it without a proper heatsink. Open any Samsung TV, for
instance, to see for yourself how important transistors are left bare,
dissipatting heat to the air. I don´t see why it should be difficult
for the manufacturer to know that these particular transistors left
overheating will fail within a finite number of hours. Also, you will
notice that the same circuit will have electrolytic capacitors near
heat sources, when it´s a well known fact that heat shortens
dramatically the life of electrolytics caps. The manufacturer know how
to properly design an electronic circuit in order to provide a long
life, but it also it knows how to design it to fail within a short term
under certain conditions, and accordingly they estimate a warranty just
long enough to cover the product for a safe term, a safe term for the
manufacturer, not the user.

Of course it´s impossible to predict exactly how many years the TV
will last, but the manufacturer count with statistical data which says,
for instance, that a TV set is turned on 10 hours per day for instance,
and taking that into account, and estimating how long the weakest part
of the TV will last under these conditions, they can determine the
warranty lapse.

That is calculated, not measured. Convert that MTBF
to years and you will discover why they cant possibility
have tested them to get those numbers.


And they are ESTIMATES, not measured results.

Exactly, these are estimates, and most of the time very accurate,
specially those concerning the maximum number of startups/stops the
drive can tolerate before the heads get completely worn.

I don´t want to imply that all manufacturers are dishonest per se, but
I can easily see how a given manufacturer can produce different items,
with differents level of quality of design and manufacture. And these
differences *will* impact the useful lifetime of the final product.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

It should be obvious. Try counting the cost of all those sockets for
all the ics, let alone what that would do to the size of the device etc.

You couldnt even use surface mount anymore either.

No reason subassemblies can not be replaceable. Connectors today can
be made extremely compact, and with LSI the active components can all
be put into one plug-in component worth a couple of dollars. SMT could
still be used on the "backbone" which could also be a low cost field
replaceable part. There is absolutely NOTHING that cannot be made
serviceable in the consumer electronics arena. Will it cost more?
Likely Does it have to? Not necessarily. Would people buy it? Smart
people would. I suspect some on this list would not.

 

[Andrew VK3BFA]

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

No surprise that you got the bums rush, right out the door.

No, it wasnt a surprise - they paid me to go. Took ages to work it so
they did. Best move I ever made, out of the loony rat race and crazy
people. So I spend my time arguing with the brain dead and fixing stuff
that otherwise would go to landfill. Just my thing.

Whats yours - besides being a disagreeable little prick with too much
time on their hands? Do you actually DO ANYTHING or just talk crap?

Andrew VK3BFA.


Andrew VK3BFA.

 

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

Yes, and why you dont see rechargeable lithium AA and AAA
batterys, because some fool will inevitably put them in an inappropriate
charger and they will go bang very spectacularly indeed.

Not necessarily. They can move the charging circuit to the cell in
itself. Of course that will steal space from the chemical part of the
cell with the resultant capacity loss, but it can be done. Thus the
charger used to recharge the battery becames inmaterial because any
proper voltage source will suffice. In fact, since lithium cells
produce 3V, and a AA battery shouldn´t produce more than 1.5V, I
suspect that these lithium cells have some form of voltage regulating
circuit inside. If that is true, then it´s possible that in several
years that circuit will be designed to allow a safe recharging of a
lithium AA or AAA battery.

Yes, but we were discussing why the battery
cant be a STANDARD AA OR AAA FORMAT.


Not with a standard battery format they cant, because that
would inevitably see some put them on inappropriate chargers
that would produce spectacular results when they did that.


No it isnt with STANDARD BATTERY FORMATS.

Take this cordless phone, for instance,

http://gigaset.siemens.com/shc/0,19...3ATechnical+data_imagePos%3A0,00.html#content

It´s designed to work with standard AAA rechargeable batteries. Also I
own a Siemens C4000 cordless phone and it works with standard AA
rechargeable batteries. It can take NiCd or NiMh batteries. So, *if*
the manufacturer wants to develop a product using standard rechageable
batteries, *it can do it*.