Planned Obselescence....A Good Thing?

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

It's the bean counters that dictate the quality or lack thereof
that makes the part failure prone in the first place,

Wrong with modern electronic devices.

and glue is a lot cheaper than screws.

Have fun explaining why cellphones still use screws and not glue.

Moulded power cords, on the other hand,
are not only CHEAPER, but "more reliable"

And they werent mandated by bean counters because of the price.

They are cheaper to make than just the replaceable
end itself because they are moulded in place.
Duh.

This is getting to be like mud wrestling with a pig.

Yep, you're getting done like a dinner, time after time after
time and you'll be running up the white flag any time now.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

No they dont, you just get a set top box.

Wanna bet?

If you were the television manufacturers, would you let millions of
consumers keep their current sets if you have a chance to sell new
product?

And since houses have multiple television sets, each will require a
convertor box...which at this time has yet to have a firm price set for
it.

TMT

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Why? Because you say it?

Nope, because even you should have noticed the
problem with the space in the batterys the ipod uses.

Oh please...

Down on your knees and beg properly...

You say that because probably you don´t have
a clue about how a battery charger works.

Guess who has just got egg all over its face, yet again ?

A lithium cell WILL produce 3V regardless of it´s type.

Wrong with the ones you waved the url for about.

A rechargeable lithium battery or a non rechargeable one will have the
same voltage output. That´s what the chemistry produces, and you can´t
reduce that voltage chemically, so they must have some built in electronic
method to reduce the voltage to the standard 1.5 V a AA cell should produce.

Have fun finding that in the ones you waved the url for about.

As I stated previously, if you move the charging circuit to the
cell itself, the problem of the charger dissapears completely.

Pity that isnt even possible with the battery in the ipod.

I don´t care it it cannot take Lithium or Plutonium batteries.

You have always been, and always will be, completely and utterly
irrelevant. What you may or may not care about in spades.

The point here is that the phone is designed to take a standard rechargeable
battery which will be available forever, and not a proprietary battery which
surely will be non available when the need to replace it arises.

The point is that lithium rechargeables are not available in AA
and AAA format because of the inevitable problem that can
occur when they are charged in an inappropriate charger.

If you move the charging circuit to the battery
pack (like laptops battery packs do),

They dont necessarily, and cellphone certainly dont.

you don´t have to worry about that.

Pity it isnt even possible with the battery used in an ipod.

I said "standard rechargeable batteries", not LiOn.

Pity we happened to be discussing the use of lithium
rechargable batterys in AA and AAA format.

What part of that didn´t you understood?

What part of discussing the use of lithium rechargable batterys
in AA and AAA format did you not understand ? Ipods in spades.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

I won't buy a Toyota Corolla or Honda Accord, or any of
the million clones, simply because everyone else has one, and I can't find
mine in a parking lot.

I drove a white Chevy step van for a decade. I never had a problem
finding it in a parking lot, and VERY few subcompacts tried to cut me
off in traffic. ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

They can do the estimate considering an ambient temperature of 20ºC - 25ºC.

Pity that is completely useless when determining whether the TV will
survive the warranty period when used at much higher temps than that.

Check the datasheet of any semiconductor
and learn something before you write.

I was doing that likely before you were even born thanks.

Any rise in the temperature will shorten the lifespan of the product.

Wrong when the life is indefinite at any temps that the product will ever see.

To me, that´s a quite profitable scenario.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever designed a TV.

Are you crazy?
Nope.

Have you ever seen a modern SMPS?

Yep, I may well have been using them since before you were even born too thanks.

Try to tell all us that a SMPS (Switched Mode Power Supply, in case
you don´t know what a SMPS is) don´t HAVE electrolytics caps,

I never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

and that those caps doesn´t have a finite lifespan.

Or that either.

Even electrolytics are classified based
on their MBTF at certain temperatures.
Duh.

Again, try to find the datasheet of some electrolitycs caps,

Dont need to, did that likely before you were even born too thanks.

and educate yourself.

Retake Bullshitting 101.

No one is telling that the product will explode right after the warranty expires,

Some have run the mindlessly silly line that it can
be designed to fail just after the warranty runs out.

but that it can be designed to fail within a
short life span, especially with cheap products.

Have fun explaining the host of domestic electronic devices that dont.

A TV, or a computer monitor left on all the time will last less time
of course. A CRT has a definite lifespan, and if the monitor or the
TV set is a LCD based one, the CFL bulbs used to light up the screen
have a definite lifespan. Did you knew that, Mr. Know Nothing ?

Corse I did, Master Pathetic Excuse for a Bullshit Artist.

Pity its got nothing to do with your stupid pig ignorant claim
that is possible to design a product to survive the warranty
period and die shortly after that expires, with so much
variation in the detail of how domestic appliances are used.

Tell that to the manufacturer of Coby products, for instance.

Dont need to.

They have quite a long time selling trash that fails quite quickly.

Because there are enough who havent been dudded
with a product of theirs to buy a dud of theirs.

Basic mathematics.

It can be something like 15 years or more of constant use, without a stop.

Its actually a hell of a lot more years than that.

And I have seen hard drives surviving at least more than 10 years of hard work.

Me too. Pity about the years the MTBF turns into.

You are wrong again.
Nope.

When the platters stops, the heads contact the platters.

Not anymore, they are retracted now.

While the platters are spinning at full speed, the heads are separated from
them by a small air cushion formed by the rotational speed of the platter.
Duh.

As soon the HDD is turned off, the platters loses speed, and eventually
the air cushion dissapear, thus the heads make contact with the platters.

No they dont, they are retracted now.

The same happens in reverse sequence when the HDD starts.

Wrong again.

That´s why start / stop cicles have a definite impact in any HDD.

Wrong again. Its actually the spinup thats the problem life wise.

Have you ever wondered why a HDD last less in
a home environment than in a office environment?

They dont necessarily.

Check this out http://phorums.com.au/archive/index.php/t-42666.html

No thanks, its just plain wrong on that line about heads landing on the platters now.

It might teach you a thing or two.

Not even possible for you. You're clearly certain you know it all when you clearly dont.

Isnt it time you ran up the white flag ?

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed [email protected] wrote

Maybe you would be so kind as to explain the
difference between "what really happens" and "true".

Already did. Concentrate on the words exaggerate and caricature.

Look them up if necessary.

Well, there goes any hope I had for an intelligent discussion. I'm outta here.

Great, there is only so much of your mindless silly shit anyone should have to put up with.

 

[Rick Brandt]

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:01:43 +1100, "Rod Speed"
It's the bean counters that dictate the quality or lack thereof that
makes the part failure prone in the first place, and glue is a lot
cheaper than screws. Moulded power cords, on the other hand, are not
only CHEAPER, but "more reliable" They are cheaper to make than just
the replaceable end itself because they are moulded in place.

Let's imagine that conversation...

BeanCounter: "Make the product cheaper"
Engineer: "Sure, what do you suggest?"
BeanCounter: "I have no idea. I'm an accountant, not an engineer!"
(at this point everyone at the meeting stops paying attention to the
BeanCounter)

Cost reduction is a *technical problem*, it cannot simply be mandated by fiat.
Every company is a bit different but I work at a company that manufactures
capital equipment and I can tell you that there are no accountants even invited
to these meetings. Ours (and many companies) are RUN by the engineering
departments. All other departments are considered "support".

 

[Rod Speed]

Wanna bet?

Yep, they are buyable now.

If you were the television manufacturers, would
you let millions of consumers keep their current
sets if you have a chance to sell new product?

They get no say what so ever on that.

And since houses have multiple television sets,
each will require a convertor box...

Duh. Much cheaper than a new TV.

which at this time has yet to have a firm price set for it.

Wrong, there are plenty of them available right now.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

The main problem there is that I need a proper modern cordless
keyboard. I compute from a deep armchair with my feet up and
have the keyboard in my lap when entering text like now.

Take a look at: http://www.visikey.net for large print keyboards.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Those arent the RECHARGEABLE batterys being discussed.



Nope, not the RECHARGEABLE batterys being discussed.

There are lithium batteries made to take the place of 2 AA batteries
side by side in cameras and radios etc that use 2 AA
batteries.(RCR-V3) (CR2) They are available rechargeable. AAs are be a
bit of a trick because of the 3.7 volt standard. But I HAVE seen them.
Also the camera standard RCR123a is available in rechargeable Lithium.
Also rechargeable lithium ion 9 volts (can't find the number)

I HAVE A CHARGER FOR THE LITHIUM 123A

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Not practical with AA and AAA batterys being discussed.

In spades with an ipod battery.


But isnt practical and it cant be done with an ipod battery anyway.

There is NO ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING required. Make a "new standard"
battery that will only fit the proper charger or device provided with
internal charger circuit. Put contacts on it that mate with contacts
in the devices.
Absolutely no reason it cannot be done. It can be the battery
currently used in an application, with contacts added. Makes it field
replaceable - doesn't even matter if there is an external charger
available (isn't for half the cell phone batteries either)

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

Take a look at: http://www.visikey.net for large print keyboards.

The problem is the letters wearing off, not the size of the letters.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

There is NO ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING required.

Sure, the problem is just a basic mechanical/size one.

Make a "new standard" battery that will only fit the proper
charger or device provided with internal charger circuit.

Thats what they have already done with ipods
and electric toothbrushes and cellphones.

Put contacts on it that mate with contacts in the devices.

Thats what has already been done with cellphones.

Absolutely no reason it cannot be done.

Its not feasible to put the charging circuit
INSIDE THE CURRENT IPOD BATTERY.

THATS what was being discussed there.

No really that practical with electric toothbrushes either.

It can be the battery currently used in an application, with contacts added.

Not with an ipod with the charger inside THAT battery. Its too small.

Makes it field replaceable

The ipod battery is field replaceable now.

- doesn't even matter if there is an external charger
available (isn't for half the cell phone batteries either)

There always is for the cellphone and battery combined.

And for the ipod too. With it even just USB is fine.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

Rod Speed ha escrito:


Why? Because you say it? Oh please...



You say that because probably you don´t have a clue about how a
battery charger works.

No, there are different "lithium" chemistries, and the Energizer E2
Lithium is a native 1.7 or 1.8 volt cell. AA cells are roughly 3 ah
each, and loose less than 1% per year to self discharge.

Here's a bit of info on 1.5 volt nominal lithium chemistry. From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_battery

Li-CuO Copper oxide 1.5 V 2.4 V
Can operate up to 150 °C. Developed as a replacement of zinc-carbon
and alkaline batteries. "Voltage up" problem, high difference between
open-circuit and nominal voltage. Produced until mid-1990s, replaced
by lithium-iron sulfide. Current use limited.
Li-Cu4O(PO4)2 Copper oxyphosphate
See Li-CuO
Li-CuS Copper sulfide 1.5 V
Li-PbCuS Lead sulfide and copper sulfide 1.5 V 2.2 V
Li-FeS Iron sulfide Propylene carbonate, dioxolane, dimethoxyethane
1.5-1.2 V
"Lithium-iron", "Li/Fe". used as a replacement for alkaline batteries.
See lithium - iron disulfide.
Li-FeS2 Iron disulfide Propylene carbonate, dioxolane, dimethoxyethane
1.6-1.4 V 1.8 V
"Lithium-iron", "Li/Fe". Used in eg. Energizer lithium cells as a
replacement for alkaline zinc-manganese chemistry. Called
"voltage-compatible" lithiums. 2.5 times higher lifetime for high
current discharge regime than alkaline batteries, no advantage for
low-current applications. Low self-discharge, 10 years storage time.
FeS2 is cheap. Some types rechargeable. Cathode often designed as a
paste of iron sulfide powder mixed with powdered graphite. Variant is
Li-CuFeS2.
Li-Bi2Pb2O5 Lead bismuthate 1.5 V 1.8 V
Replacement of silver-oxide batteries, with higher energy density,
lower tendency to leak, and better performance at higher temperatures.
Li-Bi2O3 Bismuth trioxide 1.5 V 2.04 V

The E2 is Lithium Iron DiSulphide.

They have a self protection circuit built in - a self resetting
poly-fuse type apparatus callet a PTC (Positive Temperature
Co-efficient) This also makes it almost impossible to detonate the
battery by attempting to recharge it. The battery is limitted to 2
amps continuous, but can handle short duration higher peaks
significantly higher.
They CAN BE SHIPPED BY NORMAL METHODS INCLUDING MAIL.

A lithium cell WILL produce 3V regardless of it´s type. A rechargeable
lithium battery or a non rechargeable one will have the same voltage
output. That´s what the chemistry produces, and you can´t reduce that
voltage chemically, so they must have some built in electronic method
to reduce the voltage to the standard 1.5 V a AA cell should produce.

You need to learn to do your research before you make statements you
cannot support. You've proven yourself to be a blowhard.
Except the Lithium E2, which is a non-rechargeable battery
(officially) The PTC device prevents them from being charged too hard
or overheated if inadvertently put into a charger.. They WILL accept a
charge - I don't know how much capacity the recharged cell has yet as
I have not tested it. I charged it with a regulated power supply
current limited to 350ma and voltage limitted to 1.65. I need to crank
both current and voltage up a bit to get a full charge - the battery
was at .7 volts when I pulled it out of the clock and after two hours
it is at 1.2 and has held that voltage for 3 days. I'm going to rig up
a proper holder, then put the battery outside on the charger for 5
hours at 500ma and 2.35 volts and see what happens. If it blows up
it'll make a little crater in the snow but I'm convinced the
protection of the PTC device will not allow that to happen.

As I stated previously, if you move the charging circuit to the cell
itself, the problem of the charger dissapears completely.


I don´t care it it cannot take Lithium or Plutonium batteries. The
point here is that the phone is designed to take a standard
rechargeable battery which will be available forever, and not a
proprietary battery which surely will be non available when the need to
replace it arises.


If you move the charging circuit to the battery pack (like laptops
battery packs do), you don´t have to worry about that.


I said "standard rechargeable batteries", not LiOn. What part of that
didn´t you understood?

And a "new standard" could easilly be established for rechargeable
Lithiums as well. With or without internal protection.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

There are lithium batteries made to take the place of 2 AA
batteries side by side in cameras and radios etc that use 2 AA
batteries.(RCR-V3) (CR2) They are available rechargeable.

Yes, but they arent the standard format being discussed.

AAs are be a bit of a trick because of the 3.7 volt standard. But I HAVE
seen them. Also the camera standard RCR123a is available in rechargeable
Lithium. Also rechargeable lithium ion 9 volts (can't find the number)

Yes, but they arent the standard format being discussed.

Its no news that there are a host of special purpose removable
rechargable lithium batterys, virtually all laptops, notebooks,
PDAs. cameras, cellphones, etc etc etc have them.

I HAVE A CHARGER FOR THE LITHIUM 123A

PITY ITS NOT A STANDARD AA OR AAA BATTERY.

 

[Anthony Matonak]

Most companies data isn't worth anything after only a handful of years.

Well, I suppose one could print and store all all the data records on
acid-free paper and then physically go find the ones they wanted.
Shouldn't take more than a medium-sized army of clerks and only a small
hollowed mountain range for the storage.

The absolute best storage is microfilm or some variant of it.
You're pretty much assured that no matter what happens with
technology that you'll still be able to read it, even decades
later. You can buy computer microfilm printers. Direct print
to microfilm, no developing required.

Anthony

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote


I just did.


Pity we happened to be discussing rechargeable batterys.



Nope. Nokia for example use the same format battery
over multiple generations of their cellphones. Its actually
about a physical format that works well with cellphones.

Nokia has used several different battery standards. The 5100-6100
series uses the same battery, in Nicad, NiMh and Lithium flavours.
Other series of phones use different battery configurations. Much more
sensible in this regard than Motorola and all the other manufacturers.
Something about a northern european mentality - they actually THINK.

I've actually got one that not only takes its own format battery,
but allows you to use AA batterys in an emergency, but that has
the real downside that its much thicker than current cellphones
and considerably bigger overall too.

My cordless phone does in fact use standard NiMH or NiCad AA
batterys, and its much thicker than most modern cellphones. Not as
important with a cordless which doesnt get carried around as much.



Its the tiny physical format that makes user changable batterys less
practical, particularly when you cant charge them outside the ipod easily.

There is no need to charge them outside the ipod if all you want to do
is make the ipod last longer than the 2 year life of the current
non-replaceable battery

You'll be able to get them, just because of the volume of those sold.



Who cares if they still work fine ?



The OP did.


Have fun explaining why the absolute vast bulk of cellphones
can still be opened fine, and have replaceable covers etc.

No problem - they are designed with EXCHANGEABLE batteries so you can
go weeks between charging. Ever try to charge a cellphone battery out
in the bush in West Africa? - where you DO see cell phones miles and
miles from any electrical power? The batteries get swapped out in
town and recharged there. You get two with your phone and "bob's your
uncle" Just drop off dead ones and pick up charged ones - pay a small
fee.

Also, cell phones are a "vanity item" so there is a large aftermarket
in customized cases for some brands. There are also MANY that can not
be readilly dissassembled beyond removing the battery.

Have fun explaining why the absolute vast bulk of cellphones
can still be opened fine, and have replaceable covers etc.


Clearly hasnt happened with Apple, Nokia, etc etc etc.

It came VERY close to happening to Aapple. Just about got Gateway too.
Might still get HP/Compaq if they don't get their corporate head out
of (A) the sand or (B) their backsides. What happened to half the
computer companies that were in the market as little as 10 years ago?
The majority were micromanaged to death.

 

[lsmartino]

Rod Speed ha escrito:

I was doing that likely before you were even born thanks.


Wrong when the life is indefinite at any temps that the product will eversee.


Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever designed a TV.

Would you care to show us how many TV´s have you designed? Answers
like: "many more than you can buy in your entire lifetime", "a lot
before you where born" aren´t valid ones. Give us real models and
brands if you want to have a little credibility. Probably you will not
ba able to produce a valid answer

Yep, I may well have been using them since before you were even born too thanks.


I never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.


Or that either.


Dont need to, did that likely before you were even born too thanks.

So no comments about how the finite lifespan of a capacitor used in a
SMPS will affect the overall lifespan of the product?

Some have run the mindlessly silly line that it can
be designed to fail just after the warranty runs out.


Have fun explaining the host of domestic electronic devices that dont.

I say "it can be designed to have a short life span", not that "all
electronic devices are made to fail". I´m starting to think that you
have trouble to understand written language.

Corse I did, Master Pathetic Excuse for a Bullshit Artist.

Pity its got nothing to do with your stupid pig ignorant claim
that is possible to design a product to survive the warranty
period and die shortly after that expires, with so much
variation in the detail of how domestic appliances are used.

Since you don´t have a real argument, you proceed to personal
disqualification. That´s says a lot about you. Try to tell us that
leaving a device turned on always will not reduce it´s lifespan
considerably. In fact, following your ideas that no real lifespan can
be determinated for a given device, then the amount of use of that
devices shouldn´t have any impact.

Dont need to.


Because there are enough who havent been dudded
with a product of theirs to buy a dud of theirs.

Basic mathematics.

And they are the masters about producing disposable electronics. They
are the vivid proof that a device can, and sometimes is, designed to
fail within a short time.

Its actually a hell of a lot more years than that.


Me too. Pity about the years the MTBF turns into.

Check this link
http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDiskDrive/whitepapers/WhitePaper_05.htm
It shows how MTBF is calculated.

Not anymore, they are retracted now.


No they dont, they are retracted now.


Wrong again.

Check this other one:

http://www.samsung.com/Products/Har...nPointTSeries_HD321KJ.asp?page=Specifications


specially the part about START / STOP cycles, and the design life of
this particular HDD, which by the way, is in current production. Now
explain why the manufacturer provides a definite number of START /
STOPS cycles, if those cycles doesn´t cause any kind of damage to the
drive

Wrong again. Its actually the spinup thats the problem life wise.

Really? Please explain that in a credible way. Also, explain how the
heads retract in such a way that they never touches the platters as the
HDD stops.. Answers like "I designed HDD´s before they were marketed"
or "I know that because I´m the master engineer of blah, blah, blah"
aren´t valid ones. Demonstrate what you say.

They dont necessarily.


No thanks, its just plain wrong on that line about heads landing on the platters now.

If you checked that link, you would have found that it talks about YOU,
not HDD´s.

Not even possible for you. You're clearly certain you know it all when you clearly dont.

Isnt it time you ran up the white flag ?

Nope, because I´m not in a war. You are the one who wants to feel like
an old WW2 hero.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote


No point when there is only one with stuff like
an ipod, electric toothbrush, cellphone etc.


And still cost signifcantly more than no connector at all.

With the failure rate with PCs so low, its a complete waste of money.


What they actually do is surface mount that on a single component and
allow what is needed for the owner/monkey to press to be connected etc.


Why would it be low cost when its the bulk of the product
like with an ipod, a cellphone, a cordless phone, etc etc etc.

Because even the way they are built today they are "low cost". And I'm
talking things like 2000 dollar large screen TVs like the Sony
mentioned thad had the drivers in the non-replaceable cable to the
screen. The circuit in question likely costs Sony less than $3 to
install where it is. Add $10 to make it readilly replaceable, and you
increase the cost by 0.5%

Yes, but what is the point of making it easy to replace the
vast bulk of the device when the failure rate is so low ?

The failure rate is plenty high enough - even if you limit it to
"infant mortality" Failure within the lifespan of the display panel is
likely well over 5%. On some brands of laptop computers it's a whole
lot higher than that.

Yes, it makes sense to have cellphone batterys readily
replaceable, and the front cover etc, because batterys
do have a limited number of recharge cycles and people
do bugger up the covers quite often, but there isnt any
point in having more than a single module with all the
electronics on it with a cellphone or even a PC motherboard.


Corse it has to over no connector at all.

There are ways of doing things that add functionality without adding
cost.

I doubt it when they have adequate information on the failure rate.


Its not a list, they are newsgroups.

OK. picky, picky.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote


There is no conspiracy, just idiocy.



It should be obvious what the cost of having connectors
for all the caps, resistors, ics etc would cost.

How does that affect the environment?