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PFC of high power battery chargers

J

Jamie Morken

Hi,

How does a high power battery charger ie. 3kW 120VAC to 12VDC/50Amps

like the Xantrex Prosine inverter/charger:

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/242/docserve.asp

provide a good power factor, like 0.99 when charging batteries
from the grid?

Would it pulse charge the batteries, or use a pre-boost from the
rectified 120VAC?

cheers,
Jamie
 
P

Phil Allison

"Jamie Morken"
How does a high power battery charger ie. 3kW 120VAC to 12VDC/50Amps

like the Xantrex Prosine inverter/charger:

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/242/docserve.asp

provide a good power factor, like 0.99 when charging batteries
from the grid?

Would it pulse charge the batteries, or use a pre-boost from the
rectified 120VAC?


** Silly question.



........ Phil
 
J

Jamie Morken

Phil said:
"Jamie Morken"



** Silly question.

I guess that it must be active power factor correction, using a boost
converter,

To get a power factor of 1, I think the boost circuit has to run at
constant dutycycle, and then change the constant dutycycle pulse width
depending on the load to maintain the same output voltage, but what is
the most efficient voltage to have the boost converter output from a
240VAC input?

cheers,
Jamie
 
P

Phil Allison

"Jamie Morken"
I guess that it must be active power factor correction, using a boost
converter,


** Eeeee-yep.

To get a power factor of 1, I think the boost circuit has to run at
constant dutycycle,

** The PWM chopper's duty cycle TRACKS the instantaneous AC voltage -
so the current drawn is in proportion to it.

Mimics Mr Ohm's famous law.

and then change the duty cycle pulse width
depending on the load to maintain the same output voltage,


** Does that too.

but what is the most efficient voltage to have the boost converter output
from a 240VAC input?


** Just a little over the peak AC voltage or 340 volts.

It is a "boost" converter after all.



........ Phil
 
J

Jamie Morken

Phil said:
"Jamie Morken"


** Eeeee-yep.



** The PWM chopper's duty cycle TRACKS the instantaneous AC voltage -
so the current drawn is in proportion to it.

Mimics Mr Ohm's famous law.




** Does that too.




** Just a little over the peak AC voltage or 340 volts.

It is a "boost" converter after all.


For a wide input voltage supply, ie. 120VAC to 240VAC,
would the "optimal" output of the boost converter still be 340VDC?

cheers,
Jamie
 
P

Phil Allison

"Jamie Morken"
Phil said:
For a wide input voltage supply, ie. 120VAC to 240VAC,
would the "optimal" output of the boost converter still be 340VDC?

** Silly question.




....... Phil
 
J

Jamie Morken

Phil said:
"Jamie Morken"


** Silly question.

For designing the transformer primary of a battery charger it is
useful to know what the DC bus voltage will be out of the PFC
output section. Using 340Volts as the transformer primary,
and 100V as the secondary, to charge a 48V battery pack through
an LC filter would work well at 240VAC input but I'm not sure
how well it would work at 120VAC input, thus maybe it would be better
to use a lower transformer primary voltage as a compromise I was
thinking.

cheers,
Jamie
 
P

Phil Allison

"Jamie Morken"
For designing the transformer primary of a battery charger it is
useful to know what the DC bus voltage will be out of the PFC
output section. Using 340Volts as the transformer primary,
and 100V as the secondary, to charge a 48V battery pack through
an LC filter would work well at 240VAC input but I'm not sure
how well it would work at 120VAC input, thus maybe it would be better
to use a lower transformer primary voltage as a compromise I was
thinking.


** Huh ????????????

All far too silly for me.



..... Phil
 
T

Terry Given

it could also be a PFC flyback. but straight boost PFC is more common.


some do, some dont. most PFC chips (eg UC3854) have a multiplier,
forcing the peak current to be proportional to the full-wave rectified
input voltage (many actually normalise this voltage, using A*B/C).

Others use constant on-time control, which only really works for DCM
boost & flyback PFCs. when you crank thru the maths of a conventional
PFC controller, you see that the actual effect of the normalised
multiplier is to give a constant on-time.

in either case the error-amp comes thru and scales the setpoint to
provide output voltage control.

for universal input one generally considers 80-265Vac, and sets Vout =
380V - 400Vdc
For a wide input voltage supply, ie. 120VAC to 240VAC,
would the "optimal" output of the boost converter still be 340VDC?

cheers,
Jamie

380Vdc, but yes it has to be, as the PFC doesnt know whether it will be
operating from 120Vac or 230Vac. one could add circuitry to scale Vout
as a function of Vac - the net result would be higher duty cycle and
lower stress on the PFC switch - but I havent seen it done. it also
takes more components.

Cheers
Terry
 
P

Phil Allison

"Terry Given the Pinball Wanker "
some do, some dont.


** Try learning to read - you stinking, criminal Kiwi cunthead.

The AC current drawn MUST track the AC input voltage for the PF to be close
to unity.





........ Phil
 
T

Terry Given

Phil said:
"Terry Given the Pinball Wanker "





** Try learning to read - you stinking, criminal Kiwi cunthead.

The AC current drawn MUST track the AC input voltage for the PF to be close
to unity.


....... Phil

try learning some power electronics.

for a DCM PFC (boost or flyback), if the duty cycle is CONSTANT, you get:


Vin = Vpk*|sin(wt)|

Vin = LpfcdI/dt

DCM so dI = Ipk

dt = Ton


so Ipk = (Vpk*Ton/Lpfc)*|sin(wt)|

voila, the peak current is directly proportional to |sin(wt)|

and the duty cycle doesnt have to vary AT ALL.

a slow feedback loop then varies Ton as a function of output load, to
maintain regulation

Cheers
Terry
 
P

Phil Allison

"Terry Given the FUCKWIT Pinball Wanker "



** Try learning to READ - you stinking, criminal Kiwi **** !!

The AC current drawn MUST track the AC input voltage for the PF to be close
to unity.




........ Phil
 
T

Terry Given

Phil said:
"Terry Given the FUCKWIT Pinball Wanker "






** Try learning to READ - you stinking, criminal Kiwi **** !!

A bit of reading comprehension would work wonders for you, too, phil.

and I just proved that it doesnt have to do that, in order for the AC
current to track the AC voltage. Which, as you say, is required for good
PF (by definition).


The AC current drawn MUST track the AC input voltage for the PF to be close
to unity.

indeed. nor did I say otherwise.
....... Phil


perhaps you should have finished off that tertiary education :)

Cheers
Terry
 
J

Jamie Morken

Terry said:
for a DCM PFC (boost or flyback), if the duty cycle is CONSTANT, you get:


Vin = Vpk*|sin(wt)|

Vin = LpfcdI/dt

DCM so dI = Ipk

dt = Ton


so Ipk = (Vpk*Ton/Lpfc)*|sin(wt)|

voila, the peak current is directly proportional to |sin(wt)|

and the duty cycle doesnt have to vary AT ALL.

a slow feedback loop then varies Ton as a function of output load, to
maintain regulation

Cheers
Terry

Hi,

After filtering out a couple lines of profanity (cough Phil) you guys
have a nice informative conversation on PFC boost converters ;)

I am thinking of just driving the boost FET from a software controller,
using the method of constant dutycycle to give a power factor of 1, and
then a slow feedback loop like you say to adjust the constant dutycycle.

What is a good method to use for the slow feedback loop? The UC3854
block diagram is pretty complex, so am not sure how to translate that
into a software PFC controller.

cheers,
Jamie
 
T

Terry Given

Jamie said:
Hi,

After filtering out a couple lines of profanity (cough Phil) you guys
have a nice informative conversation on PFC boost converters ;)

Phil knows a lot about some things, and is often a useful source of
information. say something he either disagrees with or (even worse)
doesnt understand, and the inner bile spews forth. Just ignore it.
I am thinking of just driving the boost FET from a software controller,
using the method of constant dutycycle to give a power factor of 1, and
then a slow feedback loop like you say to adjust the constant dutycycle.

this method works best in DCM (boost inductor current goes to zero each
switching cycle)

What is a good method to use for the slow feedback loop? The UC3854
block diagram is pretty complex, so am not sure how to translate that
into a software PFC controller.

cheers,
Jamie

its not really too complex.

The output voltage error amp is basically a PI controller. The output of
which is a current setpoint, and for constant line & load, is constant.
In most PFC controllers, this current setpoint is multiplied by the
full-wave-rectified line voltage, which is proportional to |sin(wt)|
before being fed to the (pulse-by-pulse) current control loop. This
makes the current reference also follow the |sin(wt)| envelope, thus
ensuring unity PF.

however whilst Vrect is proportional to |sin(wt)| if you just used a
multiplier, then the current setpoint will vary in direct proportion to
the magnitude of the AC line voltage. This turns out to be exactly
wrong, as for constant load (= constant power) you want LESS current
when the voltage increases, not more.

So what PFC chips do is take 2 measurements of Vrect, one of which is
basically a peak detector. By using an A*B/C multiplier, you get:

A = Vea = output voltage error amp output

B = Vrect/k = (sqrt(2)*Vrms/k)*|sin(wt)|

C = peak(Vrect/k) = (sqrt(2)*Vrms/k)

thus multiplier output = Vea*|sin(wt)| regardless of AC line voltage.


its not strictly necessary to do this A*B/C - the output voltage
controller will eventually correct for it. but the multiplier sits
inside a feedback loop, and A*B/C keeps the multiplier gain constant,
thereby making life easier. if its not universal input, then the effects
arent too bad, but it just makes more work for the output voltage
control loop.

if you have a brain, then you can figure out |sin(wt)| yourself. but if
you run DCM and use fixed Ton, then you dont need to bother. I am
working on a PFC flyback right now that does this. I use a voltage mode
control chip (UC35705) to set Ton based on output load.

now there is a gotcha, with ANY PFC circuit. if Vin and Iin are in-phase
sinusoids, then Pin = 2*Pavg*sin^2(wt) - it varies sinusoidally between
0 and 2*Pavg. something, somewhere must filter this 100/120Hz power
qwaveform. that something is your boost cap, which therefore has
100/120Hz ripple. So your voltage control loop has to be SLOW, as it
cant actually regulate out the 100/120Hz ripple. 10-20Hz is a pretty
typical closed-loop bandwidth.

again, if you have a brain then you can PLL onto the ac line frequency,
and run Vout thru a 2*Fac notch filter. that allows you to have fairly
high BW voltage loop, but of course all the 100/120Hz ripple is still
there. there are other tricks for achieving the same, I'll leave those
as an exercise for the astute reader ;)

HTH

Cheers
Terry
 
P

Phil Allison

* Terry Fuckwit Given the FUCKWIT Pinball Wanker "

** The PWM chopper's duty cycle TRACKS the instantaneous AC
voltage - so the current drawn is in proportion to it.
and I just proved that it doesnt have to do that,



** But it DOES do exactly that -


YOU VILE, SLIMY, AUTISTIC


** CRIMINAL ** PILE of FUCKING SHIT !!!





........ Phil
 
J

John Smith

Terry said:
...
Phil knows a lot about some things, and is often a useful source of
information. say something he either disagrees with or (even worse)
doesnt understand, and the inner bile spews forth. Just ignore it.
...
Cheers
Terry

Why hasn't anyone directed him to the county mental health services in
his area? You people are SICK, watching such an ill man and laughing at
him like that! <ROFLOL>

Regards,
JS
 
P

Phil Allison

"John Smith"



** Yawn ............

another autistic, criminal fuckwit troll..





......... Phil
 
J

Jamie Morken

John said:
Why hasn't anyone directed him to the county mental health services in
his area? You people are SICK, watching such an ill man and laughing at
him like that! <ROFLOL>

It is kind of funny to read random insults mixed with technical info is
all.

cheers,
Jamie
 
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