Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Op Amp Calculations

  • Thread starter RST Engineering \(jw\)
  • Start date
R

Roger Lascelles

See...

Newsgroups: alt.binaries.schematics.electronic
Subject: Op Amp Calculations (from S.E.D) - MultiPathFeedback.pdf
Message-ID: <[email protected]>

I don't seem to have access to alt.binaries.schematics.electronic - perhaps
someone can tell me how.

I do take your point Jim, that the T circuit is not "bad". Engineering is
about making "how much" judgements. I don't think I wrote off the circuit,
in fact I suggested using unequal resistances each side of the tap to
minimise the penalty.

My point is - use the ratio of resistances at the opamp minus node to
ESTIMATE what you are doing to noise, offset, drift and bandwidth. Applies
for any opamp circuit, not just the T. Most of the time you have extra
performance to burn.

The T feedback can be evil. Easy as pie to peel 6 or 10db off your
equipment spec and make it worse than the competition.

The original post disturbed me because it advertised the "T" as a free lunch
and seemingly equivalent to a feedback resistor.

Roger Lascelles
 
T

Terry Given

John said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Roger Lascelles



The inverting op-amp circuit works by having NO signal on the - input.
That's what 'virtual earth' means.

Hi John,

obviously your "no signal" is quite a bit larger than my "no signal"

thats a convenient approximation, but it is most surely an approximation.

to prove it, place a 10 Ohm resistor from the -ve input to 0V, and watch
the circuit perform differently.

I blame Jiri Dostal.

Cheers
Terry
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Terry Given <[email protected]>
wrote (in said:
Hi John,

obviously your "no signal" is quite a bit larger than my "no signal"

I don't know what that means.
thats a convenient approximation, but it is most surely an approximation.

Yes, it assumes that the op-amp has infinite open-loop gain. Not a bad
approximation at frequencies very much smaller than the unity-gain
bandwidth.
to prove it, place a 10 Ohm resistor from the -ve input to 0V, and
watch the circuit perform differently.

You can 'prove' all sorts of things by changing a circuit. If you
measure the signal voltage on the inverting input, you find, unless you
are using the op-amp at an unwisely-high frequency, that the voltage
there is TINY compared with the input voltage. Not 'most of the input
signal'.
 
T

The Phantom

A lot of years ago (38 to be exact) a wise old "rule of thumb" engineer
taught me a slick way of getting maximum gain out of an opamp without
resorting to very high or very low values of resistors.

As we all know, for an inverting opamp, the gain is given simply by Rf/Ri,
where Rf is the feedback resistor from output to inverting input and Ri is
the resistor between signal and inverting input. The DC level of the output
may be set anywhere you choose by an appropriate bias level on the
noninverting input. For AC amplifiers from a single supply, this is
generally Vcc/2 with capacitive coupling between Ri and the signal.

However, for very large AC gains, either Rf must be rather large or Ri
rather small. Rf being rather large makes the input voltage/current errors
become significant as regards quiescent DC output point and Ri being rather
small requires large capacitors for coupling and loading errors from the
signal source.

So, sez old wily rule-of-thumb, just break Rf into two reasonable sized
equal value resistors equal to Rf/2 and run them in series from output back
to (-) input. And, from the midpoint tap on these two resistors run a
series RC circuit to ground. Bingo, the AC gain improves greatly.

And guess what, it works. How do I calculate the R in the series RC circuit
I asks old wily. The answer comes back "Tweak it until you get the gain you
want." (Assume that C can be made appropriately large to get the
low-frequency gain you want.)

I haven't used that trick in an awfully long time, but I've got an
application that needs it. And, if I want to use Diddle's constant in a
simulation program I can fool around (ahem, heuristically experiment) to get
the gain I need.

However, I can't convince myself that I can mathematically come up with the
resistor value. I have googled the problem and come up short. Anybody got
a pointer to a URL that goes through the math of how this configuration
works? And what I'm doing to my phase margin?

Jim

(Refer to Jim Thompson's schematic in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic)

In what follows, I'll assume the capacitor is replaced with a short and only first order
effects will be considered.

An easy way to see what is happening in the "T" (multi path) network feedback
arrangement is to transform the "T" to a "Pi" network.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Y-delta+transform

First, consider what happens in an inverting amplifier of the sort in Jim's schematic
when you connect a resistor from the "-" input of the amp to ground. The "signal" gain
remains unchanged, but the "noise gain" of the circuit changes.

Now apply the well known "Y-Delta" transformation. Jim shows a "T" with (left to right;
input to output side) a series arm of 9000 ohms, a shunt arm of 1000 ohms, and a series
arm of 99200 ohms. This is equivalent to a pi network (left to right) with a shunt arm of
10090.7 ohms, a series arm of 1.001 megohms, and a shunt arm of 111222 ohms. The 10090.7
ohm shunt arm on the left goes from the "-" input to ground and so has no effect on the
signal gain. The 1.001 megohm series arm provides essentially the same feedback as the
1.000 megohm resistor in the two resistor amplifier circuit. The 111222 ohm shunt arm
from output to ground is simply an additional (small) load on the amplifier and has no
effect on circuit performance.

The noise gain in the two-resistor circuit is 1 + R3/R1; in the multi path feedback
circuit, the noise gain is 1 + R3/R1 + R4'/R1, where R4' is the 10090.7 shunt arm in the
equivalent delta network. Since R4' is about .01 times the value of R3, we should expect
no easily observable low-frequency difference in the performance of the two circuits, as
Jim's simulation shows. The noise gain is also the gain applied to the op-amp offset
voltage, and the capacitor in the multi path circuit prevents the increase in this gain at
DC. But in this particular multi path circuit, the increase in noise gain is only around
1%, so we could omit the capacitor.

This method (using the Y-Delta transformation) of analyzing the circuit indicates to me
that Jim's assertion:

"...the 1:1 case has no useful value toward improving (lowering)
the total impedance in the feedback loop."

is incorrect. Consider the following:

In Jim's multi path circuit, make R4 9803.92 ohms, make R6 98.0392 ohms, and make R5
9803.92 ohms. Now the Pi equivalent network has the two shunt resistors equal to 10000
ohms, and a series arm equal to 1.000 megohms, which gives a (low-frequency) circuit
performance identical to the two-resistor circuit, except for about 1% higher noise gain.
The total impedance in the feedback loop is much lower than the two-resistor circuit.
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that The Phantom <[email protected]>
wrote (in said:
(Refer to Jim Thompson's schematic in
alt.binaries.schematics.electronic)

Instead of that, go back up the tread and see my ASCII art re-draw of
the feedback as a simple potential divider across the output, with the
feedback resistor taken from the tap. It's FAR easier to analyse.
 
T

The Phantom

(Refer to Jim Thompson's schematic in alt.binaries.schematics.electronic)

In what follows, I'll assume the capacitor is replaced with a short and only first order
effects will be considered.

An easy way to see what is happening in the "T" (multi path) network feedback
arrangement is to transform the "T" to a "Pi" network.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Y-delta+transform

First, consider what happens in an inverting amplifier of the sort in Jim's schematic
when you connect a resistor from the "-" input of the amp to ground. The "signal" gain
remains unchanged, but the "noise gain" of the circuit changes.

Now apply the well known "Y-Delta" transformation. Jim shows a "T" with (left to right;
input to output side) a series arm of 9000 ohms, a shunt arm of 1000 ohms, and a series
arm of 99200 ohms. This is equivalent to a pi network (left to right) with a shunt arm of
10090.7 ohms, a series arm of 1.001 megohms, and a shunt arm of 111222 ohms. The 10090.7
ohm shunt arm on the left goes from the "-" input to ground and so has no effect on the
signal gain. The 1.001 megohm series arm provides essentially the same feedback as the
1.000 megohm resistor in the two resistor amplifier circuit. The 111222 ohm shunt arm
from output to ground is simply an additional (small) load on the amplifier and has no
effect on circuit performance.

The noise gain in the two-resistor circuit is 1 + R3/R1; in the multi path feedback
circuit, the noise gain is 1 + R3/R1 + R4'/R1, where R4' is the 10090.7 shunt arm in the
equivalent delta network.

I made a transcription error here. The expression for noise gain of the multi path
network should be 1 + R6'/R1 + R6'/R4', where R6' is the series arm in the equivalent
delta network, and R4' is the 10090.7 ohm shunt arm in the equivalent delta network.
Since R4' is about .01 times the value of R3, we should expect
no easily observable low-frequency difference in the performance of the two circuits, as
Jim's simulation shows.

This sentence should read "Since R4' is about 10 times R1, we should expect..."
The noise gain is also the gain applied to the op-amp offset
voltage, and the capacitor in the multi path circuit prevents the increase in this gain at
DC. But in this particular multi path circuit, the increase in noise gain is only around
1%,

This should be "around 10%".
so we could omit the capacitor.

This method (using the Y-Delta transformation) of analyzing the circuit indicates to me
that Jim's assertion:

"...the 1:1 case has no useful value toward improving (lowering)
the total impedance in the feedback loop."

is incorrect. Consider the following:

In Jim's multi path circuit, make R4 9803.92 ohms, make R6 98.0392 ohms, and make R5
9803.92 ohms. Now the Pi equivalent network has the two shunt resistors equal to 10000
ohms, and a series arm equal to 1.000 megohms, which gives a (low-frequency) circuit
performance identical to the two-resistor circuit, except for about 1%

This also should be "about 10%".
 
J

Jim Thompson

I read in sci.electronics.design that The Phantom <[email protected]>


Instead of that, go back up the tread and see my ASCII art re-draw of
the feedback as a simple potential divider across the output, with the
feedback resistor taken from the tap. It's FAR easier to analyse.

But considering it so low an impedance, that you call it just a
divider, is a degenerate case... and certainly NOT the most useful
one.

...Jim Thompson
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson
But considering it so low an impedance, that you call it just a
divider, is a degenerate case... and certainly NOT the most useful one.

Would you care to enlarge on that? It's always a divider, for finite
resistor values, so I don't see your point.
 
J

Jim Thompson

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson


Would you care to enlarge on that? It's always a divider, for finite
resistor values, so I don't see your point.

In the "interesting" cases the "divider" impedance is within the same
order of magnitude as the first feedback resistor.

...Jim Thompson
 
T

Terry Given

John said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Terry Given <[email protected]>



I don't know what that means.

my "no signal" is zero.
Yes, it assumes that the op-amp has infinite open-loop gain. Not a bad
approximation at frequencies very much smaller than the unity-gain
bandwidth.

indeed.

at 1% of the UGBW, OL gain is 100, far from infinite

You can 'prove' all sorts of things by changing a circuit. If you
measure the signal voltage on the inverting input, you find, unless you
are using the op-amp at an unwisely-high frequency, that the voltage
there is TINY compared with the input voltage. Not 'most of the input
signal'.

We both disagree with Roger then.

I recently built about 50,000 of this circuit, with a feedback cap too
(mathcad rather than mathematica, and a pencil to start with for the
analysis), and 15 inputs thru 100k resistors. the effect of the 14
"grounded" resistors shifted the center frequency by about 10% - Aol was
about 50. power consumption (and cost) constraints meant I couldnt use a
faster opamp, so instead I stopped assuming and started calculating :)

Cheers
Terry
 
F

Fred Bloggs

John said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that The Phantom <[email protected]>



Instead of that, go back up the tread and see my ASCII art re-draw of
the feedback as a simple potential divider across the output, with the
feedback resistor taken from the tap. It's FAR easier to analyse.

The T-PI transformation is a natural here because you don't care about
the two shunts arms most of the time and the poles/zeroes fall right out:
View in a fixed-width font such as Courier.



- - - Z - - -

---[R1]--+--[R2]---
|
[R3]
|
===
|C
|
---



R1R2+R1(R3+1/SC)+R2(R3+1/SC)
Z= ---------------------------
R3+1/SC



(R1R2+R1R3+R2R3)
---------------- SC
R1 + R2 + 1
Z= (R1 + R2) ------------------------
R3CS + 1




(R12 + R3 )CS + 1
Z= (R1 + R2) ----------------- ;R12=R1||R2
R3CS + 1



+--- Z---+
| |
| |\ |
Vi>--[Ri]--+-|-\ |
| >---+--> Vout
+-|+/
| |/
---




(R1 + R2) (R12 + R3 )CS + 1
Vout/Vin=(-) --------- x -----------------
Rin R3CS + 1




Add the input shunt component:



---[R1]--+--[R2]---
| |
[R3]
Zs |
===
| |C
|
---


(R12 + R3 )CS + 1
Zs= (R1 + R2) ----------------- ;R12=R1||R2
R2CS




+--- Z---+
| |
| |\ |
Vi>--[Ri]---+-----+-|-\ |
| | >---+--> Vout
[Rs] +-|+/
| | |/
=== ---
|Cs
|
---


R1
Rs= ( 1 + -- ) (R12 + R3 )
R2


C
Cs= ----------
R1
( 1 + -- )
R2


1
midband fractional gain error= ------------
1
1 - -------
A(jw)*Rs
A(jw)=OA gain
 
T

Terry Given

Fred said:
The T-PI transformation is a natural here because you don't care about
the two shunts arms most of the time and the poles/zeroes fall right out:
View in a fixed-width font such as Courier.

thats how I did it, and why :)

Cheers,
Terry
- - - Z - - -

---[R1]--+--[R2]---
|
[R3]
|
===
|C
|
---



R1R2+R1(R3+1/SC)+R2(R3+1/SC)
Z= ---------------------------
R3+1/SC



(R1R2+R1R3+R2R3)
---------------- SC
R1 + R2 + 1
Z= (R1 + R2) ------------------------
R3CS + 1




(R12 + R3 )CS + 1
Z= (R1 + R2) ----------------- ;R12=R1||R2
R3CS + 1



+--- Z---+
| |
| |\ |
Vi>--[Ri]--+-|-\ |
| >---+--> Vout
+-|+/
| |/
---




(R1 + R2) (R12 + R3 )CS + 1
Vout/Vin=(-) --------- x -----------------
Rin R3CS + 1




Add the input shunt component:



---[R1]--+--[R2]---
| |
[R3]
Zs |
===
| |C
|
---


(R12 + R3 )CS + 1
Zs= (R1 + R2) ----------------- ;R12=R1||R2
R2CS




+--- Z---+
| |
| |\ |
Vi>--[Ri]---+-----+-|-\ |
| | >---+--> Vout
[Rs] +-|+/
| | |/
=== ---
|Cs
|
---


R1
Rs= ( 1 + -- ) (R12 + R3 )
R2


C
Cs= ----------
R1
( 1 + -- )
R2


1
midband fractional gain error= ------------
1
1 - -------
A(jw)*Rs
A(jw)=OA gain
 
T

The Phantom

I read in sci.electronics.design that The Phantom <[email protected]>


Instead of that, go back up the tread and see my ASCII art re-draw of
the feedback as a simple potential divider across the output, with the
feedback resistor taken from the tap. It's FAR easier to analyse.

I guess you and I will have to disagree about what "...FAR easier..." means. You first
give an expression which is only approximate and then to make it exact, you say:
"replace R4 by R4 + (R2R3/(R2 + R3)". By the time this is done, the amount of algebra is
not significantly (if any) less than a Y-Delta method:

Knowing that the shunt arms of the equivalent delta have no effect on the signal gain,
we need only compute the series arm and use the old Rf/Ri gain formula for the
two-resistor case, with Rf replaced by the expression for the delta series arm.

Thus, the series arm is given by (R3*R4 + R2*R3 + R2*R4)/R3. Since the input resistor
is R1, we have the exact gain expression of Rf/Ri = (R3*R4 + R2*R3 + R2*R4)/(R1*R3).

I can't see that, as you said, "Gain = (R4/R1) x {(R2 + R3)}/R3, if R4 is very much
larger than R3. If it isn't, replace R4 by R4 + (R2R3/(R2 + R3)."

is "...FAR easier..." than recognizing that the equivalent Rf is (R3*R4 + R2*R3 +
R2*R4)/R3, which when divided by R1 gives the signal gain.
 
T

Terry Given

The said:
I guess you and I will have to disagree about what "...FAR easier..." means. You first
give an expression which is only approximate and then to make it exact, you say:
"replace R4 by R4 + (R2R3/(R2 + R3)". By the time this is done, the amount of algebra is
not significantly (if any) less than a Y-Delta method:

Knowing that the shunt arms of the equivalent delta have no effect on the signal gain,
we need only compute the series arm and use the old Rf/Ri gain formula for the
two-resistor case, with Rf replaced by the expression for the delta series arm.

Thus, the series arm is given by (R3*R4 + R2*R3 + R2*R4)/R3. Since the input resistor
is R1, we have the exact gain expression of Rf/Ri = (R3*R4 + R2*R3 + R2*R4)/(R1*R3).

I can't see that, as you said, "Gain = (R4/R1) x {(R2 + R3)}/R3, if R4 is very much
larger than R3. If it isn't, replace R4 by R4 + (R2R3/(R2 + R3)."

is "...FAR easier..." than recognizing that the equivalent Rf is (R3*R4 + R2*R3 +
R2*R4)/R3, which when divided by R1 gives the signal gain.

except that if the frequency of interest is not far, far below UGBW, the
shunt arm connected to the -ve input cannot be ignored.

Hey, its only a little bit of baby maths.

Cheers
Terry
 
P

Pooh Bear

John said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that The Phantom <[email protected]>


Instead of that, go back up the tread and see my ASCII art re-draw of
the feedback as a simple potential divider across the output, with the
feedback resistor taken from the tap. It's FAR easier to analyse.

I can't imagine analysing it any other way !

Graham
 
P

Pooh Bear

Jim said:
But considering it so low an impedance, that you call it just a
divider, is a degenerate case... and certainly NOT the most useful
one.

Just take the source resistance of the divider and add it to the attached
feedback R. It resolves very easily.

Graham
 
T

The Phantom

A lot of years ago (38 to be exact) a wise old "rule of thumb" engineer
taught me a slick way of getting maximum gain out of an opamp without
resorting to very high or very low values of resistors.

As we all know, for an inverting opamp, the gain is given simply by Rf/Ri,
where Rf is the feedback resistor from output to inverting input and Ri is
the resistor between signal and inverting input. The DC level of the output
may be set anywhere you choose by an appropriate bias level on the
noninverting input. For AC amplifiers from a single supply, this is
generally Vcc/2 with capacitive coupling between Ri and the signal.

However, for very large AC gains, either Rf must be rather large or Ri
rather small. Rf being rather large makes the input voltage/current errors
become significant as regards quiescent DC output point and Ri being rather
small requires large capacitors for coupling and loading errors from the
signal source.

So, sez old wily rule-of-thumb, just break Rf into two reasonable sized
equal value resistors equal to Rf/2 and run them in series from output back
to (-) input. And, from the midpoint tap on these two resistors run a
series RC circuit to ground. Bingo, the AC gain improves greatly.

And guess what, it works. How do I calculate the R in the series RC circuit
I asks old wily. The answer comes back "Tweak it until you get the gain you
want." (Assume that C can be made appropriately large to get the
low-frequency gain you want.)

I haven't used that trick in an awfully long time, but I've got an
application that needs it. And, if I want to use Diddle's constant in a
simulation program I can fool around (ahem, heuristically experiment) to get
the gain I need.

However, I can't convince myself that I can mathematically come up with the
resistor value. I have googled the problem and come up short. Anybody got
a pointer to a URL that goes through the math of how this configuration
works? And what I'm doing to my phase margin?

Jim

I remember Robert Pease in his column in Electronic Design magazine dealt with this
topic:

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=3929

Since he shows a circuit with no input resistor, but rather just an input current (this
would be equivalent to an infinite input resistance), his comments on noise gain would
have to be modified to apply to the circuit under consideration here.
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson
In the "interesting" cases the "divider" impedance is within the same
order of magnitude as the first feedback resistor.

In which case the 'bottom arm' is two resistors in parallel, and the
'first feedback resistor' is one resistor in series with two in
parallel. Not rocket science, jut the normal 'loaded potential divider'.
 
T

The Phantom

except that if the frequency of interest is not far, far below UGBW, the
shunt arm connected to the -ve input cannot be ignored.

That's why in my discourse on the use of the Y-Delta transformation, I began by saying:
" In what follows, I'll assume the capacitor is replaced with a short and only first
order effects will be considered."

But for those who care, using Woodgate's reference designators, the signal gain with
infinite Aol is: (R3*R4 + R2(R3 + R4))/(R1*R3) and if the amplifier gain is finite, the
signal gain is:

Aol*(R3*R4 + R2*(R3 + R4))
--------------------------------------------
R1*(R2 + R3 + Aol*R3)+ R3*R4 + R2*(R3 + R4)

As one might expect, when trying to get a gain of 1000 out of the closed loop circuit,
an open loop gain of 100 times that, or 100,000 would seem reasonable to reduce errors to
the 1% level, and in fact that's what I get when I compute the error in the infinite gain
expression compared to the more exact finite gain expression with an Aol of 100,000. I
would agree, we need to be "far, far below UGBW" to get a closed loop gain of 1000 with a
fairly small error from neglecting the shunt arm on the minus input.
 
F

Fred Bloggs

Terry said:
I recently built about 50,000 of this circuit, with a feedback cap too
(mathcad rather than mathematica, and a pencil to start with for the
analysis), and 15 inputs thru 100k resistors. the effect of the 14
"grounded" resistors shifted the center frequency by about 10% - Aol was
about 50. power consumption (and cost) constraints meant I couldnt use a
faster opamp, so instead I stopped assuming and started calculating :)

What was the transfer function you were shooting for, and which amp?
 
Top