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Need help designing an automotive engine run detector.

T

Tim Wescott

Rich said:
How do they do it in standby gensets? They auto-start; there must
be some way to detect "engine running" so it knows when to release
the "start" button, right?

Good Luck!
Rich
That's easier, because they can connect to the engine wiring. The ones
I've worked on got a message from the speed regulator, or just held the
start button for a fixed interval then checked to see if the generator
was coming on-line.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
 
V

Vladimir Vassilevsky

Hello all,

I am trying to develop a new type of aftermarket product that will
connect to a vehicles battery. Ground return will be through the
chassis. I desire no other electrical connections. This will help
simplify installation for the typical consumer. Do you know many
people who can't find their vehicles battery? Well, I'm sure you
could name a few. But, the majority of us can. What I want to avoid
is telling someone to splice into some signal within their vehicle.
This can get difficult. The type and location of such signals will
vary from one manufacture to another. Who knows, it may not exist at
all in some vehicles...

I fully understand and agree with your concerns. Besides, altering any
circuits of the car can void the warranty and opens you to the liability
claims.
When activated this product will draw about 5 amp. I'm trying to
devise a way to allow activation of this product only while the engine
is running (for obvious reasons). Therefore the product will need to
sense engine running.
[...]

This got me thinking about alternate options. One thing I do know is
that the raw power feed on a vehicle is REAL noisy when the engine is
running. Is there a way I can use this to my advantage?

Yes. You can even measure the engine RPM by the pulsation of the onboard
power.

Essentailly
what i would need is a noise detector.

It is better to lowpass it in order to pick the pulsation made by the
car alternator.
A potential problem... The shape and
amplitude of these pulses varies from vehicle to vehicle.

True. On some vehicles, it does not work.
Can you think of a highly reliable way to detect engine noise, or
better yet engine running, through sensing of the vehicles battery
feed?

Is it the only sense available or can you use anything else?
If there is only the power connection, I would use an MCU to detect the
voltage and pulsation, and then do some logic with it. Probably will fit
into 0.1mA consumption in standby mode.
Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

It depends on how much is the great appreciation.



Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com
 
What you seem to have proved is that the variables mentioned are
extremely variable, I would not trust them. You could however use a
motion sensor, to see if the vehicle is moving, say a magnet on a
string and a reed relay.

Or perhaps a small solid state 3 axis accelerometer? They have been
dropping in price.

Ge0
 
Your observations on charging are off base... but...

Use a microphone and *listen* for a running engine.

I'd monitor battery voltage, that will always tell you when the
battery is charging, and it is safe to draw a load from it.

Another alternative is an indcutive pickup fastened to the alternator.

Peter,

I am affraid i sent my response to this message to your email account
vs. to this public forum as I intended. I

appologize. Still trying to figure out how the google interface
works.

My biggest question. How are my observations on charging systems off
base? Please elaborate.

Ge0
 
Can you AC couple the alternator ripple through a capacitor, rectify,
filter, then compare to a reference with a low power comparator?- Hide quoted text -


Glen,

This is the exact approach I am experimenting with now.

Ge0
 
Bad idea. You're bypassing the entire fuse and breaker protection
mechanisms in the vehicle. You would need to attach a fuse directly
to the positive terminal of the battery, a non-trivial exercise.
You're worried about the GUM (great unwashed masses) doing a proper
install, yet you don't seem to be worried about the same person is
going to get a wrench between the positive terminal and ground, with
the resultant smoke, fire, burns, and litigation.

Bad idea? Hmmm, I wonder how the high powered car amplifier market
gets by. They sell millions of those things a
year. Perhaps because they do not actually supply the wiring?
Similar case to the electric hedge cutters. Ever
see one lately with a corded pigtail for power? No? That's becuase
some fool probably cut through the supplied
pigtail, sued them, and won. So, to counteract, the guys making the
hedge cutters molded a plug into their handle.
Now if the fool cuts through the cord, they need to sue the extension
cord maker :).

I'll let our lawyers determine if we supply wiring, fuses harness to
connect to VBAT, etc... Or if we play it on the safe side and make it
the customers responsibility to supply these goods.
Yep. That's the worst case scenario for electronics. Roughly -40C to
+105C. Don't forget about water proofing and high voltage spikes on
the power lines.

I design underhood electronics to survive all know electrical system
faults and SAE-J1113-11 transients at +125C
75 watts? Where are you going to empty out the heat?

Product design and packaging will take this into account.

Ignition switch. If that's offensive, try the cancer stick igniter,
which only has power when the engine is running or the ACC switch is
on.

I didn't want to run additional wiring. However, if I have to, IGN
would be my 1st choice.

Thanks for your feedback Jeff.

Ge0
 
Batteries have a temperature coefficient. Account for it. Also Google for
automotive load dump and be prepared to take on some 80V spikes.

Regards,

Boris Mohar

Design will withstand up to 87V (beyond typical 13.5V charging levels)
load dump for 400mS. I believe this is the worse case per SAE-
J1113-11

Ge0
 
The High Tech Way...
Ever use voice recognition software?.. Last time I used that, I had to
talk for 30 minutes to train it to my voice.
Similarly, a computer (uC, DSP) may need to be trained to identify the
noise off the battery when the engine is running.
Your gizmo may need a training mode.

Learning mode... Hmm, the gerbil wheel is churning.

Ge0
 
Further on the above... you also presented some good real-world
information on charging systems that was new to me, and I appreciate
it.

Now, on to your problem. I'm thinking that anyone who has the
skills and confidence to find some clear sheet metal in the engine
compartment for a mounting location, drill the mounting holes, and
install the battery cable taps could find the LV ignition wire that
would be used as a goof-proof signal to turn your unit on and off.

However, I can appreciate your desire for the simplest installation
possible, so I'll add one more idea to the collection. How about
little a piezo vibration sensor that the installer would attach to a
convenient mounting point on the engine assembly? Valve cover?
Wiring loom mounting bracket? Something like that.

Good luck with your endeavour.

Tom

Thank you for the words of confidence Tom.

My marketing department is fighting tooth and nail with me to simplify
the installation of this sucker as much as possible. The obvious
answer would be to add an ignition feed similar to what we do with a
similar OEM product. However, their marketing studies have shown this
may scare off potential buyers, or, increase installation complexity.

The whole thing about installation complexity is not so much for the
person with a little bit of ambition who may know what they are
doing. It is more for the person who does not have a clue to what
they are doing and would have a mechanic install the product.
Marketing feels adding an ignition wire (or any other external sensor)
would add too much time to the installation.
Time is money when paying a mechanic. The mechanic may charge more
than what the consumer paid for the product...
Therefore, I have been given the challenge to keep this self contained
(and as cheap as possible of course).

If my product were rigidly mounted somehwere in the engine
compartment, say on the fire wall or the inner fender, do you think it
would be acceptable to house a piezo electric element inside my
product? Wouldn't vibration from the road or engine also vibrate my
module which is coupled to it?

Can anyone think of an instance where the vehicle would NOT be running
or moving but some external source of vibration would allow my product
to activate? I'm thinking EARTH QUAKES for instance :). Seriously
though. The module would only be active while vibration is sensed.
It would de-activate when the source of vibration goes away. Would it
matter if my product activated itself for 3 minutes while an earth
quake took place and then shut off immediately afterwards? That's
250mA/hr off the batteries charge. I've never been present during an
earth quake so don't know if this is the case.

Then there is ferry transport, rail transport, tow trucks, etc...
This one is not trivial is it?

One last question. Say I wanted to look into Piezo Electric
elements. Where might one start to find something that is automotive
grade?

Ge0
 
A microphone and detect acoustic noise. I'm aware of one "engine
detector" in a product that uses this.

Barry

Anyone know of a microphone rated from -40C to 125C? You are not the
first person to mention this. It may be worth looking into.

Thanks for the input Barry.

Ge0
 
How do they do it in standby gensets? They auto-start; there must
be some way to detect "engine running" so it knows when to release
the "start" button, right?

Good Luck!
Rich

Excuse my ignorance. What is a standby Genset?

Ge0
 
J

John Fields

One last question. Say I wanted to look into Piezo Electric
elements. Where might one start to find something that is automotive
grade?
 
T

Tom2000

If my product were rigidly mounted somehwere in the engine
compartment, say on the fire wall or the inner fender, do you think it
would be acceptable to house a piezo electric element inside my
product? Wouldn't vibration from the road or engine also vibrate my
module which is coupled to it?

Can anyone think of an instance where the vehicle would NOT be running
or moving but some external source of vibration would allow my product
to activate? I'm thinking EARTH QUAKES for instance :). Seriously
though. The module would only be active while vibration is sensed.
It would de-activate when the source of vibration goes away. Would it
matter if my product activated itself for 3 minutes while an earth
quake took place and then shut off immediately afterwards? That's
250mA/hr off the batteries charge. I've never been present during an
earth quake so don't know if this is the case.

Then there is ferry transport, rail transport, tow trucks, etc...
This one is not trivial is it?

One last question. Say I wanted to look into Piezo Electric
elements. Where might one start to find something that is automotive
grade?

Ge0

Howdy, Ge0,

I thought about the piezo mounted inside your unit the instant I hit
the send button to post my last message. :) Yep, I think it would
work.

You'd have to filter the piezo's output to only respond to the band of
frequencies that would represent the engine running. You'd need to do
some real-world testing to establish frequencies and amplitudes.
You'd also have to add timing to guard against transient vibrations
and anti-resonances that might temporarily reduce the vibration levels
below your threshold.

If your product incorporates a micro, handling the piezo shouldn't be
difficult to do, and shouldn't require much program memory or
processor resources. And if you're not using a micro, why not? This
is the 21st century. Get with the program! :)

For your initial test and evaluation, I'd recommend that you obtain
several different types of small encased piezo sounders. Then seal
the sound holes. Give them an environmental test to see which stand
up to your conditions. (I'll bet that they all will. Unless you
overdrive them, they're rugged little beasts.) Or Google for
vibration sensors, vibration transducers, etc. Probably others in
here with more experience applying piezos will be happy to provide you
with better advice.

Odd you mentioned towing. I didn't think of that. My thought was to
filter against wind, parking lot bumps, etc. Having lived in
California, I even thought of earthquakes, but I wouldn't put
earthquake survivability into your design requirement document. In
any case, proper filtering should guard against just about any
external source of vibration.

I wish you luck with your product. I hope it's a big win for you
folks.

Tom
 
T

Tom2000

I didn't want to run additional wiring. However, if I have to, IGN
would be my 1st choice.

I thought about the cigarette lighter circuit, too. Then I thought
about all the plastic I'd have to remove in my own car to get anywhere
near the cigarette lighter wiring. In many cars, that would be a
major undertaking.

Tom
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Bad idea?

Well yes. It really depends on who does the install. If it's the
clueless bozo that you're apparently you market audience, anything
that requires tools is a bad idea. Horror stories on request.
Hmmm, I wonder how the high powered car amplifier market
gets by. They sell millions of those things a
year. Perhaps because they do not actually supply the wiring?

Most are installed by auto electronics shops (and then cleaned up by
auto electric shops after the wiring harness gets torched). It can be
done successfully by anyone who actually follows the instructions, but
your target audience apparently doesn't qualify. You're correct.
Directly wired to the battery.
<http://www.caraudiohelp.com/how_to_install_a_car_amp/how_to_install_a_car_amp.htm>
See item #7 on fuse location.

Incidentally, if you want your worst case nightmare for do it thyself
automotive electronics, see:
<http://www.mp3car.com>
in the "Show off your project" forum section:
<http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/show-off-your-project/>
Some of the installs are rather marginal bordering on dangerous.
Others are really impressive works of electronic artisty. The
majority seem to survive without fire or an extended vehicle warranty.
I'm shopping for new wheels and plan to install a computer in roughly
the same manner.
Similar case to the electric hedge cutters. Ever
see one lately with a corded pigtail for power? No? That's becuase
some fool probably cut through the supplied
pigtail, sued them, and won. So, to counteract, the guys making the
hedge cutters molded a plug into their handle.
Now if the fool cuts through the cord, they need to sue the extension
cord maker :).

You're stretching it a bit. Between about 1973 and 1985, my hobby was
product liability litigation. It was a hobby rather than a profession
because I carefully avoided most pitfalls and traps in the products I
helped design. I would collect horror stories from the news and trade
journals and bring them to meetings. That would inspire the others to
be VERY careful. Anyway, if you have any relevent horror product
liability horror stories, please make them relevent to user installed
automotive electronics. Hedge cutters aren't even close.
I'll let our lawyers determine if we supply wiring, fuses harness to
connect to VBAT, etc... Or if we play it on the safe side and make it
the customers responsibility to supply these goods.

Actually, the lawyers don't decide anything. They advise.

As I understand it (possibly wrong), dumping the responsibility on the
customer, where the customer is forced to make a decision based on
insufficient information, is a loser in court. The customer merely
has to say that he did not understand the instructions and they're off
the hook. It's your responsibility to insure that the customer cannot
do anything wrong, cannot misinterpret, and cannot injure themselves.
Consult and attorney to be sure.
I design underhood electronics to survive all know electrical system
faults and SAE-J1113-11 transients at +125C


Product design and packaging will take this into account.

Ok, I have a design question. It draws 5amps. How are you going to
turn it on and off or is that the purpose of the engine run detector?
If this is the case, how are you going to prevent Joe Sixpack, from
placing a boom box on the air filter, and playing race track sound
effects CD's at full blast, causing your engine sound activated
contrivance to falsely activate? No answer required, but at least
think about the many ways in which such a system can fail.

Incidentally, does this have to work in a hybrid? They don't make
very much noise when running on battery.
I didn't want to run additional wiring. However, if I have to, IGN
would be my 1st choice.

Well, it does have the benifits of simplicity. However, once you have
a microprocessor to abuse, engine run detectors can be made as
complicated and elaborate as the software will allow. Complex
algorithms, that accept input from multiple sensors (sound, vibration,
IR, acelleration, etc). We're not fighting for every byte of RAM or
counting CPU cycles these days.
Thanks for your feedback Jeff.

Glad to be of assistance. Incidentally, I spent 9.5 years designing
consumer marine electronics. It's not the same as automotive, but
it's close enough with the added enjoyment of a corrosive environment
and a semi-intoxicated operator.
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

A microphone and detect acoustic noise. I'm aware of one "engine
detector" in a product that uses this.
Barry

Won't work on an electric or hybrid vehicle when running on battery.
 
L

LVMarc

Jeff said:
Well yes. It really depends on who does the install. If it's the
clueless bozo that you're apparently you market audience, anything
that requires tools is a bad idea. Horror stories on request.




Most are installed by auto electronics shops (and then cleaned up by
auto electric shops after the wiring harness gets torched). It can be
done successfully by anyone who actually follows the instructions, but
your target audience apparently doesn't qualify. You're correct.
Directly wired to the battery.
<http://www.caraudiohelp.com/how_to_install_a_car_amp/how_to_install_a_car_amp.htm>
See item #7 on fuse location.

Incidentally, if you want your worst case nightmare for do it thyself
automotive electronics, see:
<http://www.mp3car.com>
in the "Show off your project" forum section:
<http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/show-off-your-project/>
Some of the installs are rather marginal bordering on dangerous.
Others are really impressive works of electronic artisty. The
majority seem to survive without fire or an extended vehicle warranty.
I'm shopping for new wheels and plan to install a computer in roughly
the same manner.




You're stretching it a bit. Between about 1973 and 1985, my hobby was
product liability litigation. It was a hobby rather than a profession
because I carefully avoided most pitfalls and traps in the products I
helped design. I would collect horror stories from the news and trade
journals and bring them to meetings. That would inspire the others to
be VERY careful. Anyway, if you have any relevent horror product
liability horror stories, please make them relevent to user installed
automotive electronics. Hedge cutters aren't even close.




Actually, the lawyers don't decide anything. They advise.

As I understand it (possibly wrong), dumping the responsibility on the
customer, where the customer is forced to make a decision based on
insufficient information, is a loser in court. The customer merely
has to say that he did not understand the instructions and they're off
the hook. It's your responsibility to insure that the customer cannot
do anything wrong, cannot misinterpret, and cannot injure themselves.
Consult and attorney to be sure.




Ok, I have a design question. It draws 5amps. How are you going to
turn it on and off or is that the purpose of the engine run detector?
If this is the case, how are you going to prevent Joe Sixpack, from
placing a boom box on the air filter, and playing race track sound
effects CD's at full blast, causing your engine sound activated
contrivance to falsely activate? No answer required, but at least
think about the many ways in which such a system can fail.

Incidentally, does this have to work in a hybrid? They don't make
very much noise when running on battery.




Well, it does have the benifits of simplicity. However, once you have
a microprocessor to abuse, engine run detectors can be made as
complicated and elaborate as the software will allow. Complex
algorithms, that accept input from multiple sensors (sound, vibration,
IR, acelleration, etc). We're not fighting for every byte of RAM or
counting CPU cycles these days.




Glad to be of assistance. Incidentally, I spent 9.5 years designing
consumer marine electronics. It's not the same as automotive, but
it's close enough with the added enjoyment of a corrosive environment
and a semi-intoxicated operator.


Have a design concept for non-contact and low power, could be battery
powered. automotive ignition detector uses non contact radiated engine
or electric motor contractors spikes, and a coincidence detector. PLease
contact me for commercial versions of this module!

Marc
Best regards and happy designing

marc


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300142128658&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=020

link to actual mixer site

www.fwt.niat.net amazing antennas

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=LVMarc
video instructions antenna VOIP adapter

BS benevolent Stuff for engineers
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:19:22 -0000, the renowned
Anyone know of a microphone rated from -40C to 125C? You are not the
first person to mention this. It may be worth looking into.

Thanks for the input Barry.

Ge0

Kistler should be able to do that.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Won't work on an electric or hybrid vehicle when running on battery.

The engine isn't running under those conditions, just the motor(s).


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
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