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MOSFET output stage

E

Eeyore

MooseFET said:
Rumors aside MOSFETs are not really easier to operate in parallel.
You still need emitter / source resistors.

Not needed for lateral mosfets ! It's a whole different ball game.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Arny said:
The low voltage rating takes this device out of consideration for serious
audio amps for home or professional use. It may or may not be up to snuff
for automotive use.

Try coming up with a relevant example - something that can take at least 100
volts.

More like 230-250V !

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

MooseFET said:
"Jorden Verwer"wrote:

Radiation hardness
Safe operating area
Bandwidth

Not too worried about the first of those but gimme loads of the next two !

Hmmm - turn-off time 60ns @ 4A. That's why it pays to drive them from a
complementary emitter follower stage. Just like SMPSs.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Phil said:
"MooseFET"

Rumors aside MOSFETs are not really easier to operate in parallel.
You still need emitter / source resistors.

** Which MOSFETS ????

Amazing how so many MOOSE like idiots have no idea there are TWO kinds
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The kind known as " lateral " share current just fine when in parallel in
LINEAR applications with no source ballast resistors.

Septic Tank Imbecile.

It's quite clear that there are just TWO people in this thread who really
understand the use of lateral audio mosfets.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Arny said:
Yes, but we're talking about modern devices, not legacy devices.

It's relevant regardless ALWAYS. "Basic stability criteria" as I said above.

Those Hitachi style lateral mosfets are STILL faster than any audio specific
bipolar. Plus no SOA issues.

Show me an audio bipolar that'll switch off in 60ns.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Arny said:
I'm not saying that 100 KHz devices are optimal for audio

Even early 2N3055s were 8x better than that.

I'm saying that in 2008, higher bandwidth than commonly available devices
for audio power
amps is irrelevant.

Plenty still have an fT of only 4MHz (published).

Graham
 
M

MooseFET

In most cases, this is fallacy, and the result is just the opposite.
Reason: FETs have lower transconductance compared to BJTs. It is
impossible to build a half bridge stage with an ideal transfer curve.

However there are few special cases when a FET output stage has an
advantage:

1) With FETs, it is simpler to control bias current, because of the
negative dependency from the temperature. That simplifies the life.

Beware: Mosfets like the STW55NM60 have a decreasing threshold
voltage for increasing temperature. This means that biasing them to a
low idle current isn't so easy.
 
E

Eeyore

Arny said:
"Eeyore" wrote

As usual, you're misrepresenting me.

It's not 'as usual' at all. I can clearly recall you making that claim.

Nonlinearity corresponding to 0.1% THD can be audible given choice of
musical program material.

I'm sure I've mentioned before I did a test when I thought the 0.1% spec was
pretty good against another amp with 0.01% (both bipolars). It was chalk and
cheese. The differences were NOT subtle. Nor were they 'level matching'
issues or whatever. It stood out like a sore thumb. One sounded 'gratey' the
other sounded 'clean'.

Since then a 0.01% spec is my minimum target. I like to get into the 0.00X%
area though.

So, that number is way too high. Measurements
made at just one power level, like full power, are obviously bogus.

I agree. As Chris Hornbeck has noted, low-level linearity is crucial.
Full-power specs are almost verging on the irrelevant but make good
advertising copy.

Obviously, the amp has to be able to perform within spec while driving a
real-world tough (but not badly designed) speaker load.

That all said, the world is full of good power amps. There are some bad
ones, too.

I'm not quite sure at the moment whether the overall trend is positive or
negative. It's certainly debatable.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Arny said:
"Eeyore" wrote

Well, yes, now that they are so easy to obtain.

I was trying to make things easy for him.

In fact we built a lot of pretty good power amps with 60-90 volt parts, back
in the day.

That was a while back ! Even 2N3773s were good for 140V IIRC. I still have half
a tray of them somewhere from when I used to replace crap transistors with
something that would handle the job and not go phut.


Graham
 
E

Eeyore

John said:
Eeyore said:
These are NOT used in audio amps.

Learn something about LATERAL mosfets that were designed for audio. I've already
given part number and links to data sheets.

That doesn't really matter. The transfer function only needs to be
continuous so that you can close a loop around it, and the fet needs
to be able to stand the peak power dissipation. That can easily be
done with vertical "switching" type fets. A modern FLOOD architecture
[1] works great with most any kind of fet. Lots of things have changed
in the last few decades.

John

[1] Of course you've never heard the term before. I just invented it.

Fine. Can you elaborate some more on it ? Laterals have some truly lovely features
for audio. The only downside being a slightly highish Ron. Not really a problem when
(as I have) used as many as 6 in parallel (12 mosfets per channel / 24 per amp). They
also match beautifully with no need for source balance resistors (so some of the Ron
loss 'goes away').

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Don said:
High gain bandwidth products are important for a good reason. If you can
keep device phase shifts well up in frequency, the dominant pole (I know
you didn't implement one specifically, but I'm sure it was still there)
can also move up in frequency.

Yes, there was ultimately one after the initial pole-zero which as you know
helps keep phase response (and therefore margin) under control.

That means that global feedback will
carry on working instead of disappearing towards the top of the audio
band, at which point it has usually changed to local feedback in the
voltage amp, leaving output stage non-linearities uncorrected.

Interesting. In the distant past, I've toyed with seperate feedback paths from
both those points.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

MooseFET said:
Beware: Mosfets like the STW55NM60 have a decreasing threshold
voltage for increasing temperature. This means that biasing them to a
low idle current isn't so easy.

Indeed. You'll need lossy ballast resistors. Laterals are different that
way.

Graham
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Eeyore a écrit :
Fred is thinking of push-pull transformer coupled arrangements. He needs to
advance about 4-5 decades.

Uhhh?

What I wrote is just basic maths.
Try a pencil and paper...
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Eeyore a écrit :
If you're such an expert, built one and see for yourself. And use LATERAL mosfets
designed for audio.

TWIT.

You don't need to build one. It's just basic maths that you don't seem
to grasp...

Oh, and vertical or lateral mosfets has nothing to do with that.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

it.
Don't you at least agree there are many similarities between 1/f
noise and offset?


Actually, I do. By and large, they amount to the same thing. Its all low
frequency variations. For example, if one designs a chopper amp to get low
offset, it also kills/corrects for 1/f noise as well. If one has 1/f
problems in an system, one immediately thinks about using a chopper..well I
do any way...


Kevin Aylward
www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice
 
P

Phil Allison

"MooseFET"
Vladimir Vassilevsky
1) With FETs, it is simpler to control bias current, because of the
negative dependency from the temperature. That simplifies the life.

Beware: Mosfets like the STW55NM60 have a decreasing threshold
voltage for increasing temperature.


** Every switching MOSFET made has a negative gate threshold voltage tempco.

Equates to a VERY positive drain current tempco.

Many times more severe than a BJT.




...... Phil
 
K

Kevin Aylward

RichD said:
Do you have any experience designing audio amps?

er... yes...e.g.

http://www.studiomaster.com/1984 - 1986.htm

"This was the amplifier pro sound companies were waiting for; many buy up to
100 units. "
Which did you use?

Right now I use a few, one of which is a studiomaster AX2500 (750+750),
which I did not design. I also have a Behringer 1280S mixer/amp, and a
Carlsbro (600+600) PA..and a.etc...etc...

Kevin Aylward
www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Chronic said:
Only if the bandwidth and the phase margins are small relative to the
target audio bandwidth, which is unlikely.

Ahmmmm....

Lets say we are after a 50khz closed loop BW, i.e. so that there is
negligible loss at 20khz. Now suppose we are after silly distortion levels,
say , 0.005% at 20Khz. Typically this means large amounts of feedback, say a
minimum of 40db at 20khz, maybe up to 60db even. This means that we need
say, a loop unity gain bandwidth of say 5Mhz min. Now, if the Ft of a big,
high voltage high current, bipolar was say 50Mhz, which is a tad on the fast
side, its current gain would have dropped to 10, which aint so great.
Furthermore, it would be really pushing a 50Mhz ft transistor to get an
overall stable loop at 5Mhz., not forgetting that there will already be, by
design, a dominant pole rolloff, prior to the output stage.

Lets do some sums:

Cin of a bipolar ~= gm/2.pi.ft X re/RL, in emiter follower mode, i.e. Cin =
1/(2.pi.ft.RL)

For a 50Mhz bipolor this would be 800pf. at 4 ohms.

A mosfet, would be Cin ~= Cgs/(gm.RL), which at typically 1A/V and 600p,
would be Cin=125pf.

So, despite the much larger gm of a bipolar to back off its inherent large
Cbe in source follower mode, they still typically need much more high
frequency drive than mosfets. Furthermore, without additional buffering,
this larger capacitance kills the h.f gain of the class a main gain stage,
as already mentioned by Graham. Indeed, in the early 80s, such 50Mhz devices
were made from unobtainium.

There are a lot of other details, but I really don't have the time to go
into any more detailed technical design at the moment.

So... try putting full on voltage on a mosfet without a heatsink for a
while, then try that with a bipolar!.

And hopefully I haven't made any errors in my calcs;-)

Kevin Aylward
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html
 
E

Eeyore

Eeyore said:
It's quite clear that there are just TWO people in this thread who really
understand the use of lateral audio mosfets.

Oops THREE. I forgot Kevin Aylward.

Graham
 
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