Million Solar Roofs Bill Signed into Law

[Eeyore]

2006/08/23: REA: Million Solar Roofs Bill Signed into Law

After a long roller-coaster ride in the California legislature, the Million
Solar Roofs Bill, SB1, is now law. Governor Schwarzenegger, who campaigned
on a pledge to create a major solar program, signed the bill Monday. The
bill, authored by Senator Kevin Murray, went through an evolution of
different versions over the past three years leading to collective moments
of both euphoria and disappointment for the solar industry. This final
version proved suitable enough to California lawmakers and the competing
special interests with a stake in its outcome.
[...]
<http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=45786>

See also:
2006/08/22: SOSD: Bill signing completes governor's [million solar roofs] plan -
More panels, cleaner power goal of project
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20060822-9999-1n22solar.html>

I just read this. Is this PV solar ? Sounds like it.

It depends on 1 million homes each generating an average 3kW throughout the 24 hr
day !

Are they joking ?

Graham

 

[H. E. Taylor]

2006/08/23: REA: Million Solar Roofs Bill Signed into Law

After a long roller-coaster ride in the California legislature, the Million
Solar Roofs Bill, SB1, is now law. Governor Schwarzenegger, who campaigned
on a pledge to create a major solar program, signed the bill Monday. The
bill, authored by Senator Kevin Murray, went through an evolution of
different versions over the past three years leading to collective moments
of both euphoria and disappointment for the solar industry. This final
version proved suitable enough to California lawmakers and the competing
special interests with a stake in its outcome.
[...]
<http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=45786>


See also:
2006/08/22: SOSD: Bill signing completes governor's [million solar roofs] plan -
More panels, cleaner power goal of project
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20060822-9999-1n22solar.html>

2006/08/22: TLC: California Leads the Way in Solar Power
<http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/008537.php>


--
"Ignorance, allied with power, is the most ferocious enemy
justice can have." -James Baldwin

Energy Alternatives: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/energy.html
H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/

 

[Mel]

I haven't read the bill, but as I understand it, it provides for
financing grid connected PV, and requiring utilities to develope solar
rebate programmes


I think it's great news; in heavy air conditioning using areas, such as
California, peak summer daytime loads and hence strain on th local grid
can be reduced.

Alex and Mike:

Grid connected means no grid, no solar production. If you want grid
backup we're talking about back up systems; it's not quite the same thing.

And 3kWp to low to be useful? Are you kidding? A 3kWp system should be
producing well over 3000kWh/year in California, that's more than half
what an intelligent electricity consummer family should be consuming.

Mel


Alex Terrell a écrit :

2006/08/23: REA: Million Solar Roofs Bill Signed into Law

After a long roller-coaster ride in the California legislature, the Million
Solar Roofs Bill, SB1, is now law. Governor Schwarzenegger, who campaigned
on a pledge to create a major solar program, signed the bill Monday. The
bill, authored by Senator Kevin Murray, went through an evolution of
different versions over the past three years leading to collective moments
of both euphoria and disappointment for the solar industry. This final
version proved suitable enough to California lawmakers and the competing
special interests with a stake in its outcome.
[...]
<http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=45786>

See also:
2006/08/22: SOSD: Bill signing completes governor's [million solar roofs] plan -
More panels, cleaner power goal of project
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20060822-9999-1n22solar.html>

I just read this. Is this PV solar ? Sounds like it.

It depends on 1 million homes each generating an average 3kW throughout the 24 hr
day !

Are they joking ?

They mean 3GW of capacity, which is 3KW each peak, which is about 30m2.

That's a pretty big solar array - so it seems to me the numbers don't
add up.

Still, if you've got a 3KW array, you can keep your air conditioning
running when there's one of the regualr power blackouts.

 

[Matthew Beasley]

news:[email protected]...

And 3kWp to low to be useful? Are you kidding? A 3kWp system should be
producing well over 3000kWh/year in California, that's more than half what
an intelligent electricity consummer family should be consuming.

3MWh? I'm using 1/3 of that during shoulder months, but that's one month
usage for me in the worst of summer or winter. I didn't think I was that
wasteful. Well insulated house, compact flourescents for most used lights,
programmable thermostat, etc...

 

[[email protected]]

In alt.solar.photovoltaic Eeyore

I just read this. Is this PV solar ? Sounds like it.

It depends on 1 million homes each generating an average 3kW throughout
the 24 hr day !

I didn't see kWh, or per day, or annual yield.

I see "3,000 megawatts" If we divide that by the title of the project, 1
million roofs, that's a 3KW system.

Further down, it says that the "typical house, about $15,000", so that is
in line with the 3KW system.

I would think that should be the average sized system. With the net
metering plans, you don't want to generate all of your own energy.
3KW would be beyond the needs pf many people.

 

[Eeyore]

In alt.solar.photovoltaic Eeyore



I didn't see kWh, or per day, or annual yield.

I see "3,000 megawatts" If we divide that by the title of the project, 1
million roofs, that's a 3KW system.

Exactly. 3kW. As I said.

Further down, it says that the "typical house, about $15,000", so that is
in line with the 3KW system.

PV ? No way. $15,000 would give you about 1000W for maybe 7 hours a day ?

I would think that should be the average sized system. With the net
metering plans, you don't want to generate all of your own energy.
3KW would be beyond the needs pf many people.

Really ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

2006/08/23: REA: Million Solar Roofs Bill Signed into Law

After a long roller-coaster ride in the California legislature, the Million
Solar Roofs Bill, SB1, is now law. Governor Schwarzenegger, who campaigned
on a pledge to create a major solar program, signed the bill Monday. The
bill, authored by Senator Kevin Murray, went through an evolution of
different versions over the past three years leading to collective moments
of both euphoria and disappointment for the solar industry. This final
version proved suitable enough to California lawmakers and the competing
special interests with a stake in its outcome.
[...]
<http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=45786>

See also:
2006/08/22: SOSD: Bill signing completes governor's [million solar roofs] plan -
More panels, cleaner power goal of project
<http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20060822-9999-1n22solar.html>

I just read this. Is this PV solar ? Sounds like it.

It depends on 1 million homes each generating an average 3kW throughout the 24 hr
day !

Are they joking ?

Graham

Well with 3KW you can still run some stuff. It's better than a total
blackout, and
this way the homes can contribute power to the grid instead of just
sucking it up.

PV only makes electricity when the sun's shining. To produce an average of 3kW you'de
need say 9kW worth of panels, say 900 sq ft !

Graham

 

[[email protected]]

And 3kWp to low to be useful? Are you kidding? A 3kWp system should be
producing well over 3000kWh/year in California, that's more than half
what an intelligent electricity consummer family should be consuming.

My system lagged behind the A/C demand for the last couple of months, which
was abnormally high, but it is doing well for me this year. It has
displaced $1,046.63 in PG&E billing. My 3.8KW array has produced 4190KWH,
60% of my usage.

http://cdold.home.mchsi.com/Solar-generation.htm

 

[[email protected]]

They mean 3GW of capacity, which is 3KW each peak, which is about 30m2.

My array is 3.8KW, 33m2, 52'x7'.
http://cdold.home.mchsi.com/Solar-generation.htm

That's a pretty big solar array - so it seems to me the numbers don't
add up.

The numbers look right. Whether that's too big is in the eye of the
beholder. Mine is roof mount. My neighbor's is ground mount.

Jim has a 10 kw system that is larger than his roof.
http://www.baber.org/

Still, if you've got a 3KW array, you can keep your air conditioning
running when there's one of the regualr power blackouts.

The "$15,000 system" that the article mentions would not have battery
backup. When the power goes out, the grid-tie PV inverter shuts down.

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

My system lagged behind the A/C demand for the last couple of months, which
was abnormally high, but it is doing well for me this year. It has
displaced $1,046.63 in PG&E billing. My 3.8KW array has produced 4190KWH,
60% of my usage.

http://cdold.home.mchsi.com/Solar-generation.htm

Hay, that makes you a neighbor of Haverty. Does he still own Lakeside TV
& Appliance?

Best, Dan.

 

[Eeyore]

My array is 3.8KW, 33m2, 52'x7'.
http://cdold.home.mchsi.com/Solar-generation.htm


The numbers look right. Whether that's too big is in the eye of the
beholder. Mine is roof mount. My neighbor's is ground mount.

Jim has a 10 kw system that is larger than his roof.

Hardly surprising for 10kW. To generate 10kW year round would take ~ 10,000 sq
ft !

Graham

 

[[email protected]]

In alt.solar.photovoltaic Eeyore

PV only makes electricity when the sun's shining. To produce an average
of 3kW you'de need say 9kW worth of panels, say 900 sq ft !

A system in California is sold based on a "CEC Rated kilowatt Output".

All systems should be rated to some standard insolation.
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/codes_algs/PVWATTS//system.html

What you are suggesting is that a set of 10 panels installed in Mexico
should be called "10k worth" and the same set of panels installed
in England should be called "2k worth", because of the different average
output.

 

[Eeyore]

In alt.solar.photovoltaic Eeyore


A system in California is sold based on a "CEC Rated kilowatt Output".

All systems should be rated to some standard insolation.
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/codes_algs/PVWATTS//system.html

What you are suggesting is that a set of 10 panels installed in Mexico
should be called "10k worth" and the same set of panels installed
in England should be called "2k worth", because of the different average
output.

Of course, because that's the real output.

The PV world is full of lies and obfuscation.

Since the sun doesn't shine 24 hrs a day at full mid-day brightness those
figures should be further derated by a factor of at least 4 times.

Graham

 

[Mel]

Eeyore a écrit :

snip


Of course, because that's the real output.

The PV world is full of lies and obfuscation.

Since the sun doesn't shine 24 hrs a day at full mid-day brightness those
figures should be further derated by a factor of at least 4 times.

Graham

That is why the PV industry uses kWp (kiloWatt peak) and not kW
(kioWatt); it tells how much power in certain standard optimised
conditions the module can give out.

Could you imagine selling pv modules over the internet and using a power
rating that is based on a geographical location? Which geographical
location do you choose? And if you're buying for New York but the seller
has put up the Dubai rating, how's that going to help you? You'de have
to go through the conversion process anyway.


Be thankful that the industry got itselg together to define a kWp,
otherwise it would be a lot harder to know what exactly you were buying.




Mel

 

[SJC]

Wouldn't 3GW peak require about 15 million 200 watt panels? The world
installed about 14GW total in 2005; how's this going to affect the
availability and price of panels?

I think you have the essence of the problem. As long as Germany keeps buying all
the panels that they can get, the prices will stay high and a million roofs may
take quite some time.

 

[Eeyore]

Wouldn't 3GW peak require about 15 million 200 watt panels? The world
installed about 14GW total in 2005; how's this going to affect the
availability and price of panels?

Oh dear !

You asked a pertinent question ! Shut that man up !

Actually it would need about 150 million 200 watt panels. Simply because (a) you
don't get the full power output all the time the sun's shining and also very
little during the winter months and (b) you get no power at all at dawn / dusk /
night !

OTOH a power station provides its 3GW day in, day out 24/7 !

If you do the sums you'll se that that 1 million homes don't even have remotely
enough roof area to do the job, never mind it might take several decades to make
the PV cells required. And of course cost about $150 billion for 3GW of
electricity. Utter madness.

It simply isn't going to happen simply because it's nor possible ! Then I expect
a few politicians having got egg on their faces might start questioning the
entire 'bogus science' behind PV.

PV only makes sense where there is *no grid* for power and even then only in
limited situations.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

I think you have the essence of the problem. As long as Germany keeps buying all
the panels that they can get, the prices will stay high and a million roofs may
take quite some time.

There's a far worse reality. The sun doesn't shine 100% all the time. Very, very far from it !
http://www.powerfromthesun.net/chapter1/images/figure1_6.gif

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

I think you dropped a decimal point -- worldwide installations in 2005
were more like 1.4 GW (with 1.7 GW shipped).

The only way the new policy can affect availability right now is to
lengthen waiting time for product, as most manufacturers have already
sold all of their short-term future production (6-18 months worth for
most companies). I doubt it will affect the price much, though, since
California's program is a buy-down subsidy. Under such programs, I
believe demand drops off quite sharply if prices exceed a certain level.

Unfortunately it simply can't work for far more fundamental scientific issues !

See 'insolation'.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

That wasn't my mistake, but in my other post --

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/9766268eea5dead7

-- I did some math based on that figure, which will also need
correction.

I estimated that California will be adding 0.30 GW of demand to the PV
market per year, over the next ten years. I concluded that this was an
insignificant fraction of the present world-wide demand -- 0.30 GW out
of 14 GW is just two percent. But with the decimal point corrected,
0.30 GW per year is about 21% of the demand. That's pretty
significant, though I still don't think it's enough to raise PV prices.

I remember reading some rumors that California is also proposing to
provide incentives for in-state PV production. That would help. There
was something about a 100 MW/year PV factory in the works. Anyone?

You'll need a huge *silicon* factory first ! It'll need more than the entire
global semiconductor requirement for silicon most likely just to pursue a flawed
idea.

Even then it would take 30 years to do it ! And be massively energy negative and
*contribute* to pollution and global warming in the process !

At least it'll kill off PV in the long term so we won't have to suffer their
inane babble any longer.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Back in the 1970s & 80s, the State of California did a pretty good job
of kneecapping the then-solar industry -- by offering big tax rebates
on things like solar swimming pool heating systems. (That's right.
Help the poor!) When the tax rebates were later withdrawn, the
industry was floored. So now history repeats. The whole PhotoVoltaic
industry depends heavily on politically-controlled subsidies in Germany
& California. Not good.

Is there a better way? How about something similar to the X-prizes for
space engineering. One wild thought -- $1 Billion cash from the State
of California to the first company which sells 10,000 unsubsidized
solar energy systems in CA -- no tax rebates, no subsidies, no
preferential pricing on the power produced. Plus $500 Million for the
second company, and $250 Million for the third company. Point of the
prize would be to make sure money gets spent on improving the
technology so that solar energy can compete on a level playing field.

Even if PV panel efficiency improved by a factor of 3:1 ( a stupendous leap )
they'd be pissing in the wind still.

It's simple economic viability ( or the absence of it ) that'll kill PV.

Graham